Your ideas how to play vs unstopable crew

[Math Mathonwy]

26 minutes ago, katadder said:

It will probably have LOS to alot of his crew, he has a WP4 and yes I have done this to 2 skeeters in my opponents somer crew before, killing both turn 1 after they do their discard a card for suit thing.

usually this is my 2nd activation to do this, but if they hide them really well I will do it by my 4th

There's three 50mm Ht 3 models that the OP said he uses to hide his more vulnerable models if they are threatened. I admit that I am not well-versed in Levi (I think I've faced him all of three times total!) so maybe you could show a step-by-step?

[katadder]

well there's the normal A&D taxi for levi, but as I said if well hidden then I taix Levi and A&D on kentauroi then go from there. Assuming A&D just doesnt charge a pig and possibly kill it then levi can be 12" plus his base size (so say 13") plus 10" from A&D plus his base size (a further 12" placed) up the board giving levi a movement of upto 25" outside of his DZ (so 31" across the board). 

so it does depend on what your opponent is doing and how well he hides the skeeters but he has to hide them really well considering he is doing alot of pushes etc

[katadder]

For when you really need to be places:

50 SS Outcasts Crew
Leveticus + 1 Pool
 - Desolate Soul (2)
 - Tally Sheet (1)
 - Pariah of Bone (1)
Hollow Waif (0)
Hollow Waif (0)
Rusty Alyce (10)
 - Desolate Soul (2)
Ashes and Dust (14)
Kentauroi (8)
Kentauroi (8)
Hodgepodge Effigy (4)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

you can drop tally sheet for a different upgrade, maybe oathkeeper on alyce or scramble on A&D but I like my soulstone/card regen provided by that and hodgepodge

[looka]

1 hour ago, katadder said:

50 SS Outcasts Crew
Leveticus 

I agree with Gremlin above, I do not know how you expect this roster to kill what you do not see (
you do not have chain activation, you are vulnerable to charge on any of the stages of delivery levy
Rusty can not protect the whole team from charge, you just lose all the models and most likely all vaifu

the first pig in this roster without anyone's help can charge models with 36 inch from it, having + to everything or even ++ if necessary
the second pig can do the same in 26
Then both can attack the next target 10 inches from the first
After that they will have also reactivation
and they, unlike levy, can do this at any moment of the turn
In addition, the somers can simply reset the levy's hand and collect 13 cards later in his hand if the Levi is so impatient to run ahead

if you are hoping that Rusty will cover the whole team in her aura, then you will be disappointed, Somers can perfectly sacrifice a pig to cover all this disgrace several times with templates

 

[katadder]

I would guess you don't know how to play Levi either.

I would happily play this crew against this somer list and show you how it works. Who needs chain activation when you are busy setting up all your stuff before doing anything worthwhile.

Somer resetting levis hand? Ca6 vs wp7. Not that easy.also supposedly somer is shooting my crew, removing my cards and still managing what he needs for The card draw? So you are already changing how The crew has to work just to counter me.

The first pig in the roster charging 36 does need help and before it does that it will probably get charged by a&d instead (which you can't charge).

Alyce doesn't need to protect the while crew, just Levi probably as you can't charge a&d and once the kentauroi have done their thing then if they die they die. Meanwhile your pigs with no real targets to charge afterwards have to charge your own crew.

This is just 1 crew that would beat the pig charge crew. There are others (my raspy or my no charge misaki crew, which is great fun)

I am only pointing out that this crew listed by the OP is not as bad as he seems to think

[Alansonchik]

Nellie

and 2-3 henchman

6df, armor, ss

p.s.

Has Levi joined the guild yet?

[katadder]

22 minutes ago, Alansonchik said:

Nellie

and 2-3 henchman

6df, armor, ss

p.s.

Has Levi joined the guild yet?

Lol nope but if you go back to my earlier post I did only say I don't play guild but would have no issue with the gremlins crew. Normally don't frequent the guild forums but this was crossposted to general forum

I think alot of guild wouldn't either as it's based off the gremlins getting everything off that they want straight away

[Azkral]

Zoraida can obey the pigs to destroy old major. I think thats the best counter.

[katadder]

5 minutes ago, Azkral said:

Zoraida can obey the pigs to destroy old major. I think thats the best counter.

Marcus could also have fun with them 

[TeddyBear]

Hypothetically Shenlong can steal reactivate from one warpig, probably with one or two sniper, he could  kill one minor key-model a turn

[Dogmantra]

13 minutes ago, Azkral said:

Zoraida can obey the pigs to destroy old major. I think thats the best counter.

Not very efficiently sadly. Old Major's Eye on the Young Ones makes friendly pigs consider friendly pigs to not be legal charge targets.

[Lokibri]

10 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Have this man executed immediately.

Oh crap...my cover is blown! I am not a member of the guild...just two gremlins on top of each other with a jacket!

 

See you in the bayou!

 

Ps: I think a good way to stop this would be either to engage the pigs before they can charge, setup some clockwork traps to interfere with the charges or flame pillars. A general solution could be hans to kill the whisperer, but that is a coinflip.

[looka]

8 hours ago, Lokibri said:

Ps: I think a good way to stop this would be either to engage the pigs before they can charge, setup some clockwork traps to interfere with the charges or flame pillars. A general solution could be hans to kill the whisperer, but that is a coinflip.

You will not be able to engage the pigs while Mayоr and whisperer is alive
the clockwork they will be trampolines for pigs no more than
flame pillars can become a problem only if there are narrow places and there is no way to get around it, otherwise the pigs will simply bypass them, for this 1 pig has 26 inches of distance before the chardge

[katadder]

1 hour ago, looka said:

You will not be able to engage the pigs while Mayоr and whisperer is alive
the clockwork they will be trampolines for pigs no more than
flame pillars can become a problem only if there are narrow places and there is no way to get around it, otherwise the pigs will simply bypass them, for this 1 pig has 26 inches of distance before the chardge

If you are using your pushes to disengage from 50mm bases then you are not gaining forward movement so it is rapidly cutting down on your charge ranges.

Also if they manage to charge the pig with something decent then you probably won't be able to reactivate it due to losing 3 wounds on top of any damage already taken.

This while plan is based off the opponent  doing nothing in return and you freely getting 6 to 8 activations before charging.

If you are pushing the pigs 10" up the board the chances are they will find themselves getting shot and charged etc. 

From a guild point of view they could end up with a lady j in their face quite quickly having df7 with built in riposte which will soon kill the pigs. Or having nellie pull the pigs away from ol major and fed to her fast big beaters. Or sitting in range for multiple blasts from sonnia all having removed 25% of their wounds for a reactivate you may never get to use

[Lokibri]

28 minutes ago, katadder said:

From a guild point of view they could end up with a lady j in their face quite quickly having df7 with built in riposte which will soon kill the pigs. Or having nellie pull the pigs away from ol major and fed to her fast big beaters. Or sitting in range for multiple blasts from sonnia all having removed 25% of their wounds for a reactivate you may never get to use

The idea of throwing Lady J to the face was also in my mind.

With some help from pushes or a student, this will quickly be accomplished and if you had francisco beforehand, lady j can still beat those pig attacks, even if the other ones hand is stacked.

[EnternalVoid]

To be honest I think my default set up for Perdita could handle this list.  The core of it is generally Trick Shooting, her totem, Francisco w/Wade In and Hermans, Papa Loco, and 3 Guild Hounds.  That is 31ss for 7 activations.  Assuming I want at least 3ss for my pool that leaves 16ss left to fill out the crew so likely at least 2 more activations, maybe 3 if I go with a 4th guild hound.  So 9-10 total.  Now with the list on page one we are looking at a total of 13 activations if I am not missing anything.  There is the core 8 models, 3 from reactivation, the Bayou gremlin that comes out of the cryer, and then the final bayou gremlin after Somer is done playing with it.  Could have 14 if he spends that last 2ss on another Skeeter.

Now while it has a lot of activations it does run into the problem that there is only so much flex to the activation order.  Somer or Skeeter have to go before the Hog Whisperer to make sure he can spam reactivation.  Then of course the Hog Whisperer has to go before you can get the reactivate on the pigs.  To get the full card draw from the bayou gremlins the Cryer has to die before Somer activation to have a Bayou gremlin present.  Then one of the Bayou Gremlins has to go some time before Somer and last one has to go after him at some point.  Old Major needs to activate at least once before the two war pigs to start positioning them and get them their Rams.  You also need both your war pigs activations later in the turn to protect them as they have to be  on the offense, while you could spend one of the four activations doing other things such as moving any more and you will be losing to much of your Alpha.  All in all, all the parts would not be able to entirely wait out a crew of 9-10 like the Rat Engine could but could try to hold out the primary offense as long as possible which is good.

Honestly, as others have suggested, the key would be crippling the full powered offense on turn 1 before it can break you.  The best way would be to kill the Hog Whisperer before he gives Reactivation out.  I could do this with Perdita and Francisco chain activating and push tricks *easily net 8-9 inches for Perdita before she activates, 14" range, 5" walk, Sh7 vs Df4 ignoring cover, and a Possible a SS for suit should deal 7wds in two shots*.  The problem I would suspect would be that the hog whisperer would be hiding behind the pigs till he activated and all of them are Ht3 50mm bases.  But if any sort of gap was made before hand or they were not set up like a wall all together, he would be the key target and warrant an immediate reaction.  With out reactivate you cut the number of attacks by a lot.  That would be first priority if your opponent gave you the chance.

The second choice would be one of the war pigs.  Odds are I could hold off Perdita's activation pretty late forcing the Old Major to have moved the war pigs up at least a little meaning there is a good chance Perdita can get all 3 of her shots into a single war pig after getting positive to damage from Papa Loco.  As it is all but certain the Hog Whisperer has already gone by this point *its action to give reactivate to the pigs is only a 2" range so it has to go before they start moving as he needs all three AP to give them all reactivate*, the War Pigs will only have 9wds till they eat their fill.  With her higher Sh to their Df, positive to damage to get strait results if she wins by 1-5, and three shots she should be able to pick off a war pig.  This should cut the hurt down a lot, though much like with the Hog Whisperer it is only cutting it down by half so you are still going to take a pretty hefty hit to the chin but without the double duty from both pigs it will hurt your crew, not destroy or cripple it.  Also Perdita will not be a good target as with Francisco she is likely Df9, meaning she will likely be around till turn 2 to possible try and kill the second war pig.  Francisco though might end up being a target for the War Pig though but with Wade In and SS use it will be harder for them to time him dying and getting Stampede for Max attacks.  If you manage to take out the second war pig on turn 2 with even a portion of your crew still standing you will have a decent shot at the game.

Now as much as I would want to kill the skeeter or cryer early I am not sure if that would be the best course over one of the war pigs.  Killing a lone skeeter is only viable if I have a 13 in hand thanks to Sh7, Perdita can kill it with a 13 and a SS for a Ram to get critical strike for weak of 3 damage.  But as long as Somer is there he can put the Mask aura back up for the Hog Whisperer if he can get a second mask in hand.  Which is not to hard with the card draws from the cryer's ability and when that gremlin dies, it is enough cards to likely get a mask.  The Cryer has a similar issue, if you kill him before he lets them get a bunch of cards, as long as the skeeter or Somer have the aura up he can still get a decent number of cards from the Bayou Gremlins he summons.  I would consider these models possible traps as killing them look like they could shut down the set up but instead merely have drawn you in.

I imagine my Nellie list could do similar things as with her ability to pass activations from her upgrade *cost a Card or her evidence condition* she can force the War pigs to be moved into position and then spring out on them when nothing can move them again.  With her Propaganda attack going after Wp, to which they have Wp4, she should not have a hard time pushing them 5" and/or making them slow.  Deny them their charge on their first activation could take a lot out of their first turn offense.  Or Nelle can activate earlier and give something like the Executioner *or Bishop* Fast and someone else could move him into position.  At that point you have them jump a war pig and kill it before it can go to town *though likely the second War pig will beat up your heavy hitter*.

[looka]

reading all this, I understand that most of you simply do not imagine what gremlins in general (
even after you explained that this roster can I see very strange statements about the order of activations about the strings and so on (

that part of the guide that you threw off at the beginning of the post is a guide for beginners.

this roaster can be used by a variety of options that are not included in the guide so as not to complicate the beginners understanding of Somers as a master and not to overload the text

1-this roster does not need strict control of activations 
2-pigs can charge at any time without additional pushes on the 36 inch
3-This roster is played with a saddle on the major that gives the opportunity to drive a whisper around the map and pull the pigs back giving them reactivation and allowing them to attack again from the aura of the major
4-kill a mosquito you will not give anything, the aura will give out just Somers (although I do not understand how you will take a mosquito for a 150mm wall of pigs)
killing any of the gremlins will simply bring me less cards that are not scary
5-This roster can be used simply for pressure and "swine fencing" by constantly pulling pigs back
6-this roster can play from Somers, exhausting the cards and then picking them up again (I do not need to break through the 7th will I have enough to cast, so that the opponent throws out high cards)
7-or simply through shooting at the pigs with subsequent blasts, after which the pigs are simply heals

this is a very diverse roster, and you see only a strict sequence of activations(how sad it is, given that you were told almost everything)

unprepared person meeting with this roster in 1 time in the tournament gets the same emotions as from the first meeting with victoria

This roaster is just a cartridge from the clip, from a very large clip (and I see people here who think that having their Vik in the gremlins faction is 10-0 in his favor, I understand that these people are not very strong players)
and yes, if the enemy tries to control this roster and take full anti-charge - this is at least good for gremlins who gravitate toward shooting

here sounded good ideas how to resist this roster playing for the guild, but its main danger is that you still do not understand how it works

[Ludvig]

@looka

You are right, I don't understand at all. The pigs can charge 14" at any time and there is no access to chain activations so how are you getting a 36" threat without a single push from the rest of the crew as you said? Even with an uninterrupted reactivate from outnumbering it's a 24" threat for two walks and a walk + charge? Also the pigs can't get the super far charge AND get pulled back because you are counting on the whisperer doing both the reactivate and the pulling home trick. Reading some of the comments here it sounds like this list is doing all the possible moves it could be doing each turn which is just not possible.

You can't judge a list on facing an unprepared person, that gives almost no info at all on effetiveness. There are plenty of NPE:s for unprepared players, any sort of discussion needs to take for granted that the opponent has a decent understanding of the game to feel meaningful for me.

If the guild brings a fairly standard list with reporters for scheme running and a double flamewall Sonnia that still seems to handle this pretty well and is still prepared to face most shooty gremlin lists.

[katadder]

@looka I would happily face this and show you the error of your ways.

Everything you say is without opponent countering or doing anything at all. A pig cannot get 36 or even 26 without help and requires multiple pushes and activations to get there. All the while your opponent is countering stuff or doing his own thing.

Tbh it just sounds like your are noobstomping in a place that is not sure how to counter it. Plenty of people can and will counter this and probably get quite a big win out of it at the same time

[4thstringer]

3 hours ago, looka said:

reading all this, I understand that most of you simply do not imagine what gremlins in general (
even after you explained that this roster can I see very strange statements about the order of activations about the strings and so on (

that part of the guide that you threw off at the beginning of the post is a guide for beginners.

this roaster can be used by a variety of options that are not included in the guide so as not to complicate the beginners understanding of Somers as a master and not to overload the text

1-this roster does not need strict control of activations 
2-pigs can charge at any time without additional pushes on the 36 inch
3-This roster is played with a saddle on the major that gives the opportunity to drive a whisper around the map and pull the pigs back giving them reactivation and allowing them to attack again from the aura of the major
4-kill a mosquito you will not give anything, the aura will give out just Somers (although I do not understand how you will take a mosquito for a 150mm wall of pigs)
killing any of the gremlins will simply bring me less cards that are not scary
5-This roster can be used simply for pressure and "swine fencing" by constantly pulling pigs back
6-this roster can play from Somers, exhausting the cards and then picking them up again (I do not need to break through the 7th will I have enough to cast, so that the opponent throws out high cards)
7-or simply through shooting at the pigs with subsequent blasts, after which the pigs are simply heals

this is a very diverse roster, and you see only a strict sequence of activations(how sad it is, given that you were told almost everything)

unprepared person meeting with this roster in 1 time in the tournament gets the same emotions as from the first meeting with victoria

This roaster is just a cartridge from the clip, from a very large clip (and I see people here who think that having their Vik in the gremlins faction is 10-0 in his favor, I understand that these people are not very strong players)
and yes, if the enemy tries to control this roster and take full anti-charge - this is at least good for gremlins who gravitate toward shooting

here sounded good ideas how to resist this roster playing for the guild, but its main danger is that you still do not understand how it works

Well damn.  Sounds like the game is solved.  Let's pack it up boys. This is the uber- list and it cannot be touched by us mere mortals.

[edopersichetti]

My 2 cents, as a Gremlin player: this list is just not as strong as is depicted. My guess is that any expert player or even a non-expert player with a good list (some of those mentioned above) will be able to counter it. "Problem" solved

[looka]

2 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

Well damn.  Sounds like the game is solved.  Let's pack it up boys. This is the uber- list and it cannot be touched by us mere mortals.

you can quietly mock) you do not get smarter from this) it suits me)

[katadder]

Don't think anyone is being quiet about it 😂😂😂

[Lokibri]

1 hour ago, looka said:

you can quietly mock) you do not get smarter from this) it suits me)

 

Well, to be honest telling people they don't understand the full potential and hyping a build that is already an "nfl"-list (no fun list) is not what people want to see when they are desperately looking for a solution. Why don't you try to help and make your point as an additional angle to look at?

So, instead of telling people they can't see the full potential while they are trying to find solutions while working on an example that is "typical" for this build, you could explain it to them and maybe find a solution with them. Of course there are some more options because those models have abilities. But the problem should be solved step by step.

So, i am a gremlin and arcanist main player and i love crazy builds and finding a solution to them. It is like solving puzzles.

The first problem is the missing knowledge, that you will face this list. Building an anti-list is not a "real" solution.

 

Possible masters that could be good at stopping this are:

Hoffman (when having big machines with armor), sonnia with area denial, mccabe with loot bags and making a BIG model disguised and finally nellie with her "run from the truth" Aura. First i also thought of perdita and trigger on the finger, but that is not an option as soon as they struck you and you have to randomize.

Other models, that are very good against this would be:

Franciso, giving +2 out is great and a flurry attack with debt will kill a war pig for sure.

Models that can stack "fees" on them will be alrightish. The problem here is "eat your fill", but it will limit them a bit.

Abuela Ortega. This is a pretty clear solution for the problem. She is tough, denies all consecutive charges and is an overall awesome model! Positioning is key, but i think this modell can do troublesome moments for the opponent! Try her!

I am not full into guild models, but is there a kind of "Challenge" ability or effect that guild has? But Abuela just solves the problem of that list and is easily included in every list you play with guild.

I hope the two gremlins in a jacket were able to help 😉

[looka]

21 minutes ago, Lokibri said:

So, instead of telling people they can't see the full potential while they are trying to find solutions while working on an example that is "typical" for this build, you could explain it to them and maybe find a solution with them.

I just tried to do this)
my words are not mockery) I just stated the fact
but they do not believe me)
there were 2 people who expressed good thoughts, they were PolishSausage and Ludvig ) But they will be useful only if you understand where the threat will come from
all the others said it's impossible, we will win 10-0, it does not play )) and only Ludvig asked "how?"