Neverborn hand manipulation

[Angelshard]

I'm wondering if there's some nice hand manipulation tricks I've missed. We're talking own hand here, not the opponents.

Edited to add things.

Primordial magic and Lillith both gives you that sweet, sweet rush of magic ability.

Wings of darkness let's you draw an extra card when you stone, and gives you fly to boot.

Spamming duels with a lynch crew, trying to fish out the aces. He's also got a card cycling (0) and can take woke up with a hand for two cards a turn (as long as you activate last).

Colloddi can take fated upgrade and give his crew the brutal effigy buff, letting you draw a card every time you kill an opponent. 

Lelu has a (0) upgrade that lets him draw and discard at the end of turn.

Dreamer can give out the playtime condition, which lets you draw a card after damaging. If given to Lelu or lilitu the other gets it for free.

Lucius has a fantastic upgrade that gives you arcane reservoir and let's you throw out a bad card for a better, hopefully discarding a couple of other bad cards in the process. He can also give you a ton of plus flips, letting you cycle your deck faster while only using good cards.

Stitched together has game of chance, which I find a bit too unreliable to count on.

Bloodwretch can build rage for extra damage and card draw. This works best if you have some way of giving them fast (dreamer) or can make them build rage and then charge (zoraida). Colloddi can twist them for attacks and Lucius can walk and then command for a single attack. Doppelganger can copy rage for extra draw.

Thorn is one of the more reliable ways to get extra cards, hitting an illuminated or teddy pretty much negates the damages she deals, and charging means she doesn't get left behind.

Hanna gives arcane reservoir, but at 11 stones she's a major investment.

Terracotta can let a model swap thousand faces for pact and then give the model faces again.

Lust, while not technically hand manipulation, lets you look at your top three cards and, hopefully, throw a bad one away. Additionally she has a defensive  trigger that lets you draw a card. With lynch and a couple of aces (one of them ) you can safely draw cards off her with your own models.

Nekima has a  trigger that lets you draw cards and as a henchman she can even stone for it, if you're desperate (probably not the best use of a stone).

Hinamatsu draws cards when he loses a duel to an enemy, with lynch you can farm cards from an enemy model if you have an ace in your hand.

Lynch can bring in Maddox who lets you rearrange or discard the top three cards.

Widow weaver lets you draw a card every time a model fails a horror duel (friendly models too).

Zoraida can draw a lot of cards with her bewitched attack and gives her emisary a great tactical that lets you both manipulate the deck and draw.

I'm sure there's some missed ones or ways to increase the effectiveness of some of these methods and I'd love to hear them.

[Adran]

I would say Blood wretch worked best with the dreamer who makes them fast, which lets them do the whole rage builds and charge on their own turn rather than Zoraida having to obey them twice, of of which is her powerful charge obey. 

 

[Ludvig]

Lucius has his new upgrade for a bigger hand and some cycling. 

 

[santaclaws01]

Nekima also has a trigger on  to draw a card.

[Angelshard]

I had honestly forgotten she had that trigger.

[Angelshard]

@Adran shows how little I know about them, you're probably right that they're best with dreamer. And I guess they aren't that fantastic with Lucius. 

[le_sphinx]

Imo @Domin introduced the best drawing combo with Bloodwretch and Doppleganger in other threads. Doppelganger copies “the rage builds” and immediately resolves it by using her trigger. After that she hits someone twice with her fists which make us draw 4 cards and discard 2. Also Wretch can draw for us 2 cards (discard 1) during his activation. Bloodwretch can be boosted by masters like Dreamer as well.

[Rionnay]

Lucius+Dashel+Riflemen
Anytime you can get +flips taking the highest is huge deck cycling. this also works in damaging. When a rifle can flip 3+ cards to hit and then 2 for damage and shoot again with the same effect you're cycling a large number of cards in one activation. Stack this with Lucius allowing models to focus outside their activation with issue command. A single rifleman can throw 10 cards taking the highs in one activation.

2riflemen X 10 cards= 20 + Lucius 7 in hand +2 for cycling=29 cards+ issue command cards used 3= 32 cards just off of 3 models activations. Horror duels for walking also flip a lot of cards. Lastly Neverborn has a tough time finding +flips and getting a zero action focus or focus outside of a models activation is incredibly strong :-) 2 Lucius AP turns in 2 possible AP for a rifleman.

So the question is whats more important, cards in hand or seeing cards and taking the highest seen while still being able to cheat your hand?

[Littlewicked]

Jacob Lynch has a 0 action to discard up to 3 cards to draw an equal number of cards that you discard.

[Pikciwok]

Lelu w. his upgrade can damage himself to draw and discard card.

[TeddyBear]

Dreamer with "playtime" on lelu or lilitu both gain the same condition

[Tendrepie]

Also Lilith for more sweet rush of magic...

[Angelshard]

@Rionnay Not sure if I'd count plus flipping as hand or deck manipulation. Its got a chance of backfiring badly and can't really be controlled. I mean, yes if you can count cards and you know that you've got a lot of weak cards in your deck it might be worth it, but the chance that you waste good cards is just too high for my liking.

 

[INXVI]

The Conflux Of Fate.

0 Action - Lets you discard a card to look at the top 4 cards of your deck, draw one, then placed the cards onto either the top, or bottom of your deck.

[Rionnay]

13 hours ago, Angelshard said:

@Rionnay Not sure if I'd count plus flipping as hand or deck manipulation. Its got a chance of backfiring badly and can't really be controlled. I mean, yes if you can count cards and you know that you've got a lot of weak cards in your deck it might be worth it, but the chance that you waste good cards is just too high for my liking.

 

There is one card in your deck that stops you from taking the highest. Also if you can cycle the deck more gen once in a turn you "gain" more resources through additional 10+ cards. Again flipping a possible 3-4 cards to hit then 1-3 on damage cycles about 1/4 of the deck if you do this twice in a single rifle activation. 

Look at games like legendary where you want to throw out the low cards or fish for high cards to make abilities trigger. It's a deck builder concept, cycle the deck taking the highest card possible. 🙂 yes a single black joker is in the deck BUT would you rather flip it on your own missed attack at 14" or have it flipped when you are defending? 

[Domin]

Zoraida's Bewitch action, now combined with an ability to free Obey, can give you tons of cards.

[f1amius]

If u want to get new cards for Lynch u can make something like that:

widow weaver and 2(3) depleteds.

1st depleted make 1 attack to another one = 5th card out, then move

2nd depleted push to the 1st. Make 1(2) attack(s)  = 5(10) out  and mb we will get some aces.

if u take more depleteds u can make this more time. And hopefuly we get 1 ace.

then activate widow and shoot with her  exale terror at delpeted 5 more cads out, that terriffy 1 more card out, cheat for an ace if depleted pass horror + 1 card in a hand. Repeat 6 card out +1 in a hand.

activate darkness move (charge if u need more cards out) use 0 action = 2 cards out + 2 in hand.

this combination give u 4 card in a hand and 25+ card out. 

With new upgrade u heal our depleteds. And lynch will have 16 cards in a hand. So he can kill opponent’s master and heavy hitter in activation  

[Ludvig]

On 4/19/2018 at 6:20 AM, Angelshard said:

@Rionnay Not sure if I'd count plus flipping as hand or deck manipulation. Its got a chance of backfiring badly and can't really be controlled. I mean, yes if you can count cards and you know that you've got a lot of weak cards in your deck it might be worth it, but the chance that you waste good cards is just too high for my liking.

 

I'dconsider plus flips are at least a form of deck manipulation. They generally lead to you winning a lot more initial duels which lets you cheat less often and know exactly how high you will need to cheat more often. Just cycling through your deck at positives will let you use a lot more of your high cards. The black joker isn't fun when it comes up but it ruins you when you are flipping without positives as well. With a crew that banks on a lot of positives you can keep it in hand if you get to pick it up at any point.

[Angelshard]

@Rionnay and @Ludvig I guess you're right, I've just always looked at plus flips more as a way to ensure a hit than deck manipulation. But I see your point, also, if you're doing simple deck counting you can do plus actions you don't care about to get through the deck faster or get weak cards out of the deck.

[Adran]

I guess it depends on what you are actually tryign to achieve. If you want to win opposed duels then Positive flips will be effective, but if you are tryign to reach variable TNs then the control of cards in hand allow you to know what you can achieve. 

I also don't really think positive flips backfires much more than card draw

[shakes1066]

Widow Weaver with Pandora, summon Poltergeist, throw in some Insidious Madness and you will draw cards and paralyse lots of their crew.

[catbat07]

Widow Weaver, 2-3 changelings and an expendable model (ideally Serena, but a depleted also works. However, because of how many ways this can go wrong I suggest taking both).

Widow weaver activates and shoots the expendable model twice, causing it to make two horror duels, which it will fail, drawing two cards. 

Changelings activate, copy the weaver's shoot and shoot the expendable model twice each netting 4-6 cards. 

You may have to keep some low cards in your hand to cheat down.

 

[Angelshard]

The model can't fail a horror duel more than once per model forcing it. But using changelings against the same model is a nice idea

Edit: I was wrong

[Domin]

9 hours ago, Angelshard said:

The model can't fail a horror duel more than once per model forcing it. But using changelings against the same model is a nice idea

Edit: fail or pass you can't take more than one

RB says another:

Quote

A model that passes a Horror Duel may continue to act normally. Additionally, the model is considered immune to Horror Duels from the model that generated the Horror Duel until the End Phase of the Turn. A model, therefore, does not have to pass multiple Horror Duels caused by one model's Terrifying Ability, but it might have to test against a different model's Terrifying Ability in the same Turn.

Only passing the Horror duel will give you immunity.

So, the catbat07 is right, while I consider such a way (converting 1 AP to 1 card) as an unefficient way to get cards.

[Angelshard]

Huh, the more you learn, guess I was wrong.