Shenlong Burn like Fire

[gimlisredbeard]

Hello All,

Just got my Shenlong crew box recently

and I need some rules clarification on the ML attack "Burn Like Fire".

Does this rule only ends and transfer "Defensive, Focus, Fast and Reactive"? or does it transfer other conditions as well? Say "Chi"?

I know its very deviated from the rules printed on the card, But I've heard it somewhere in the podcast that it does transfer other conditions as well.

Is there any FAQ or Errata on this subject?

Thanks!

 

 

 

[Ludvig]

You must have heard wrong. It is extremely specific in what it transfers so no faq is needed.

[Kogan Style]

Yes, only those four conditions are mentioned, so only those four conditions are transferable. Note that if the model has used reactivate, it still has the reactivate condition until the end of the turn so Shen Long can steal it! for completion sake:

Fast - Removed when the model with Fast activates (to generate the extra AP) so Shen Long wouldn't be able to steal Fast from a model that used it prior to Shen Long activating

Focus - Removed when a model declares its use with an action so Shen Long wouldn't be able to steal Focus from a model that used it prior to Shen Long activating

Defensive - Stays on a model until it activates again, so Shen Long would be able to steal Defensive from a model that gained it prior to Shen Long activating

Reactivate - the condition stays on the model after it reactivates, and ends at the end of the turn. Shen Long would be able to steal Reactivate either before or after the model had reactivated (and obviously, its way better to steal it before the model gets a chance to reactivate, as Shen Long ends the condition for them!) 

[Adran]

https://www.wyrd-games.net/malifaux-faq-errata

Has the FAQ and all the current errata. There does not appear to be any errata on Shenlong. And there is no FAQ on it because its not a frequently asked question because nothing in the text on the card seems to confuse people  (or so I thought). 

The action only ends 4 conditions. Don't know what podcast you heard, but it sounds like they were wrong, or that you misunderstood them as they spoke. 

[GhostMonk]

So quick question on the rule because I'm new and Shenlong is the master I use.

How exactly does it work, like explain it as if I was a 5 year old trying to learn the game.
Shenlong uses burn like fire on an opponent with fast
That model has yet to activate so he gains fast after that model activates and ends using it?
Shenlong uses burn like fire on an opponent with fast
That model has activated and used it already so therefore Shen can't gain fast and the extra ap.

So basically long as the model targeted hasn't burned that condition already......he can steal it? I guess is what I'm asking?

[Nikodemus]

Fast goes away at the end of a model's activation. If it's on a model, Shenlong can steal it. Look up "Fast" in the rulebook.

But note! When a model activates, it first generates AP (eg. +1 from Fast), then it starts to actually use its generated AP for various actions. What this means for Shenlong is that he can't actually use Fast he steals from others, since he has already generated his AP for that activation and as explained his freshly Gained fast goes away at the end of his activation. Look up "Activation" in the rulebook.

[GhostMonk]

2 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

Fast goes away at the end of a model's activation. If it's on a model, Shenlong can steal it. Look up "Fast" in the rulebook.

But note! When a model activates, it first generates AP (eg. +1 from Fast), then it starts to actually use its generated AP for various actions. What this means for Shenlong is that he can't actually use Fast he steals from others, since he has already generated his AP for that activation and as explained his freshly Gained fast goes away at the end of his activation. Look up "Activation" in the rulebook.

Thanks for clearing that up Niko, lol. I'm still wrapping my head around the rules since I literally started playing 3 weeks ago and have maybe played 8 or 9 games outside the starter box.

[DonCheadle]

However (and I hope I'm remembering this correctly) Reactivate stays on a model until end of turn. You can therefore steal it even after that model has activated (twice). 

This is in part to prevent models from activating more than twice a round. 

[Da Git]

1 hour ago, DonCheadle said:

However (and I hope I'm remembering this correctly) Reactivate stays on a model until end of turn. You can therefore steal it even after that model has activated (twice). 

This is in part to prevent models from activating more than twice a round. 

This is very much correct.  Doesn't come up often, but when it does, two Shenlong Activations is soo good!. Watch out Tara...

[DonCheadle]

It raises an interesting question though. If I remove the condition from a reactivated model, then give it reactivate again, can it activate three or more times?

[Nikodemus]

6 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

It raises an interesting question though. If I remove the condition from a reactivated model, then give it reactivate again, can it activate three or more times?

No. "Model may not benefit from the Reactivate Condition more than once per Turn, even if it lost the Reactivate Condition and then gained it again."

-Small rulebook page 62 under "Reactivate".

[valhallan42nd]

So, I should punch Stitched Togethers in the face a lot to make them reactivate batteries for shen?

[Nikodemus]

10 minutes ago, valhallan42nd said:

So, I should punch Stitched Togethers in the face a lot to make them reactivate batteries for shen?

You can. If Stitched has already activated, it's going to be risky considering TT lacks strong chain activations.

[Ludvig]

Sounds like a good idea, just have a spare attack on Shen to finish them before they actually get to use it.

[DonCheadle]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Sounds like a good idea, just have a spare attack on Shen to finish them before they actually get to use it.

Maybe something like Burn Like Fire?

[Ludvig]

28 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

Maybe something like Burn Like Fire?

I had forgotten it was an action and nit just an ability. That might cause a problem because I brlieve you resolve effects of attacks in the order they are listed which means the stitched would be killed and removed before you could steal the condition. Haven'tdoublr checked the faq though.

[DonCheadle]

@LudvigI don't think that's correct - the model only gets removed after the attack is resolved in full.

[Ludvig]

28 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

@LudvigI don't think that's correct - the model only gets removed after the attack is resolved in full.

Where are you getting that from? The model is immediately removed as part of resolving damage if it suffers enough damage to reduce it to 0 wounds. Pretty clear from the base rules that you don't wait for the action to finish. Pretty much the only thing allowed to delay the removal is "after damaging" triggers.

[DonCheadle]

@Ludvig

 

There are abilities that have clauses like "then, if it is still in play, do x". This makes me think abilities that aren't tied to this and are part of the attack resolve regardless, before a model is removed. 

[Ludvig]

45 minutes ago, DonCheadle said:

@Ludvig

 

There are abilities that have clauses like "then, if it is still in play, do x". This makes me think abilities that aren't tied to this and are part of the attack resolve regardless, before a model is removed. 

The only one I can think of without checking books is Bacon bomb on stuffed piglets and that is when they are damaged, not damaging other models. That ability is also poorly worded since the model is still in play after being declared dead but before being removed so that whole clause does nothing. 

I'm not sure why that clarification on one action would mean other actions were allowed to break the written rules from the damage section. Either way I would like to know which damaging attacks have that same clause baked into their action effect since I can't recall any right now.

[Kogan Style]

I believe in the situation you are describing (Stitched on One wound with Reactivate being hit by Burn Like Fire) would allow Shen to steal reactivate as the model has the condition when attacked and there is no clause to indicate timing, its part of the attack. FAQ 132 is probably closest in situation to the above. 

If Shen did burn like fire on a stitched with 2 wounds (reducing it to 1 and thus gaining reactivate) would Shen be able to steal reactivate? Reactivate is gained when damaging, but no timing is given for the stealing of conditions. I'm thinking general timing applies here and Shen won't gain it due to having to resolve his ability first (stealing conditions) before Stitched gains the condition.

Thoughts?

 

 

[Ludvig]

@Kogan Style

I thik you are confusing terms. Shen isn't using an ability to steal the condition, it is baked into the attack so the general timing rules don't do much. Since it is a separate sentence coming after the damage part it is an effect which is separated from the damage, it doesn't say it applies "when" damaging or anytung like that. Stitched gain the condition "when" reduced to 1 wound so have it before Shen moves to the stealing part so if he reduces them to 1 with the attack it should be 100% legit to steal the reactivatethe stitched just gained.