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well.. about Ophelia tactics.

She can be swined 8" up, also banjo can re-position another 2", OO a girl pere to here and flip him 8" from her , assume 1" base and than trash marker him 6"

You can activate Pere T1 25" from deployment line on standard. That does not require any card flips what so ever and WILL HAPPEN always. Is she that bad?

 

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4 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

well.. about Ophelia tactics.

She can be swined 8" up, also banjo can re-position another 2", OO a girl pere to here and flip him 8" from her , assume 1" base and than trash marker him 6"

You can activate Pere T1 25" from deployment line on standard. That does not require any card flips what so ever and WILL HAPPEN always. Is she that bad?

 

One trick pony. easy to counter by killing Pere or blocking lanes of the approach. Also spreading the models makes his damage output less painful. Not to mention Pere need Tomes to do the significant damage so if you are not lucky enough to have them in your hand or flip them then this brilliant tactic is as good as none.

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well, with little 2ss totems and low ss kin model crew you can run 11-12 activation so the flip is safe t1 most cases. Ophelia being activation 11 and pere being 12.

also you place him from the 10" to 19" mark so you have wiggle room, and the push is at best optional ( you opponent decided to sit in his deployment)

 

As devastating as "blow up pere" can be, it is very tome dependent and your opponent can easily pass all these checks T1 due to unused hand.

From my experience you are best to just charge him into the thick of it and engage 2-3 models if possible, throwing out attacks.

This creates a nice perspective for your opponent T2, where he should go after pere if he does not want him to blow up but he will still do 4dmg, if he does you still get to activate other key pieces to wreck havoc( ophelia/franc/raphael/swinecursed) in his lines. 

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12 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

well, with little 2ss totems and low ss kin model crew you can run 11-12 activation so the flip is safe t1 most cases. Ophelia being activation 11 and pere being 12.

also you place him from the 10" to 19" mark so you have wiggle room, and the push is at best optional ( you opponent decided to sit in his deployment)

 

As devastating as "blow up pere" can be, it is very tome dependent and your opponent can easily pass all these checks T1 due to unused hand.

From my experience you are best to just charge him into the thick of it and engage 2-3 models if possible, throwing out attacks.

This creates a nice perspective for your opponent T2, where he should go after pere if he does not want him to blow up but he will still do 4dmg, if he does you still get to activate other key pieces to wreck havoc( ophelia/franc/raphael/swinecursed) in his lines. 

One nice thing about this combo is that it's not too expensive.  By that I mean that it mostly uses models you were looking at bringing anyway, so it's not a huge investment if the hand just isn't there.  Especially since it relies on you getting at least 2 tomes and your opponent hopefully having a badish hand.

The upshot is that Pere has a few other glorious uses, like tieing up a bunch of models as @PolishSausage said.

His ranged attack trigger is glorious also.  You *WILL* need to focus and likely have a strong ram in hand to land it though.

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That is exactly it, does not require you to hire models you did not want in your list anyway. As much as I love the iron skeeter he is very unreliable ( I BJ that darn flip so many times)  sometimes and outside of the "fast delivery" I dont think his value is there at 6 ss compared to Merris/Pere/Raph or 1.5 of survivors/effigy.

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I honestly think that she would be in a very good spot if you could give her 1 more "free" upgrade spot for DC.

the Performance she does every time is "solid" all her 0's are instant ( no CA or TN's) and she is + flip and ++ flip need be with also 3 different types of attacks need be.

As amazing as Zip is, he suffers against HT3 models, and his weak of 2 makes him not a good damage dealer/activation eliminator.

 

Ophelia can erase 1-2 models in activation and has chain activation available to her.

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Zipp is way bettr than this girl thanks to his attack which negates any Df/Wp triggers enemy model may have and also thanks to the fact that his damage cannot be reduced. Not to mention he tosses his victims all over the place which can either negate enemy player a VP (depending on strategy/scheme) or setup this poor target to get it by his team mate. And Zipp is so hard to pin down...

Ophelia would be really happy if she did have this ability to attach 1 or 2 Ophelia-ups above normal limit but IMO still she would be far away from Zipp or Somer in the power level.

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I remember when back in the day Levi was meta heavy, I would run Somer with Hide in Mud and Stubborn to prevent getting Shot, quite the days back than.

I would even take it if the "scrap marker" upgrade did not count for purpose of her upgrade limit, would help out tremendously.

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15 hours ago, DanteJH said:

I’ve solod ophelia in a 50+ person tournament and came 3rd.

shes a killer

So may be post your rosters and thoughts to Ophelia tactica guide?
It can be useful for lots of players and breaking some predjudice about her.

She was on the shelf near 3 years for me and i didnt want to play her - why should you play Ophelia when you have Somer?
Then i tried her at 35cc teaching game and i haven't changed my mind - why should i take her?
Def of the crew is a joke, her only tricks are some pushes and trash markers.

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her trick is she hits like a truck with ++ and has companion, so between here and franc/pere you have 6 ap worth of attacks going into opponents crew.

The key with gremlins its all about hitting first and hitting fast, she generates the movement/positioning for your hitters and can follow up herself.

 

Having a model that can point/click/remove a high ss model in 1 activation is always a good thing. Also people sweat at the idea of taking 12 from a RJ,something that a ++ attack can do by cycling cards very fast in 1 activation.

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49 minutes ago, green-n-dumb said:


Def of the crew is a joke, her only tricks are some pushes and trash markers.

This is your problem. The df of the crew isn't poor unless you pick models with poor df. It doesn't have to be worse than the df of a Sommer or zipp crew if you don't want it to be.

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I agree that's what I think he is referring to, but in that case his point is that he doesn't play Ophelia because the other models that appear in her box have low defence, which may be a reason to not buy the box, but not to not use her if you already own her. 

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i just cant understand why i should play Ophelia.
she has nice shots?
take Somer with +flip upgrade, take student of conflict and summon 9 bayous - Ophelia will cry from that rams dmg output and card cycling with only 18ss investment.

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8 hours ago, green-n-dumb said:

So may be post your rosters and thoughts to Ophelia tactica guide?
It can be useful for lots of players and breaking some predjudice about her

I wrote the Ophelia tactica but I’ll try and add more specific stuff 

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6 hours ago, green-n-dumb said:

i just cant understand why i should play Ophelia.
she has nice shots?
take Somer with +flip upgrade, take student of conflict and summon 9 bayous - Ophelia will cry from that rams dmg output and card cycling with only 18ss investment.

Then just do that. You don't have to Play her if you don't like her.

I understand that this thread is about the models you dont like and wish to be stronger. And I understand that you come from the "competetive tournament Player point of view".

And while I do not participate in tournaments and am certainly more "casual" than you are, I also like to win and play Lists that are considered competetive in my small 8-People-Meta.

But I just can't understand why you want to buff all those models. I feel like if you buff these models, for example Ophelia, you'll soon end up complaining about why Somer is now weaker than Ophelia.

To me this would end up in a cycle of evening out all cracks and bumps and flaws that make this game fun for me.

There are around 60+ different kinds of models per faction I think. You simply cannot make every single one of those viable, while keeping their individuality and keeping at least a bit of a balance between the factions. There have to be weak models for others to shine.

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It's a nice goal but never going to happen with such a wide range of models all trying to be unique in some way.

I think Wyrd would be doing a good job if everything were at least playably good and people could choose to run suboptimal lists based on personal preference.

The main thing is getting masters to a stage where it doesn't feel actively bad playing one over the other. There are always going to be minions that are destined to warm your shelf, if only because you'd never field 3 of them.

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Agreed fully that it is hard to achieve and that's why it is better (from player perspective) to release 2-3 models max in each faction each year, properly playtested and set in the current state of the game so they won't feel subpar choice comparing to 'obvious choices' and won't be seen as weak models. Less is quite often better.

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7 hours ago, Davie said:

But I just can't understand why you want to buff all those models. I feel like if you buff these models, for example Ophelia, you'll soon end up complaining about why Somer is now weaker than Ophelia.

The trick isn't to buff Ophelia so she is stronger than Somer as much as buff her so she isn't just a weaker version of Somer and has more of a niche.

Comparing the 2

 

Things Somer does better

-Slightly better stats with +1HT (good for LOS and prevent devour)

-More crew support built into his card by giving suits and card draw

-More consistent damage by having an extra 2" range, being able to add :ram to his attack, Bayou 2 card and with Sammy + Encourgement easy :+flip 

-better defensive trigger

-Better totem (imo skeeters are more useful than Young Lacroix)

 

Ophelia does better

-More defensive with Plink

-Can fight in close combat (though with Somer's version of squeel he won't stay stuck in combat unless you really messed up your activations) 

-Slight advantage to hit with +1SH and easy access to double :+flip

-more cheap actovations

 

What Somer can do Ophelia can't

-Summon

-Destroy enemy crews with Bigger Hat

 

What Ophelia can do Somer can't

-Flexible with her upgrades (though most of them imo have a meh attack, the tacticals are good). Though takes a fair amount of resources to set this up and limits her upgrade slots severly

-Ophelia can help her crew with pushes & trash markers

-Setup strong alpha strikes with companion

-With a convolated method can also heal and drop scheme markers with trash markers (again by really limiting her upgrade slots and only helps Kin models which really need a good minion)

 

Overall I feel Somer does better damage, more threatening, more useful crew support and summoning really opens up his flexibility. He isn't as upgrade dependent as Ophelia so can take Liquid Bravery and dirty cheater to really up his defense and staying power.

 

Ophelia on the other hand is faster and better scheming (something Gremlin's are generally just very good at) and will probably survive concentrated fire better than Somer. 

 

Personally imo Somer's damage should probably be nerfed to make him more of a support master and Ophelia more the damage dealer. 

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Then she really needs up her gun range to 12''. Also she is SS hungry to actually trigger her damage capability which Somer does easily.

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22 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Agreed fully that it is hard to achieve and that's why it is better (from player perspective) to release 2-3 models max in each faction each year, properly playtested and set in the current state of the game so they won't feel subpar choice comparing to 'obvious choices' and won't be seen as weak models. Less is quite often better.

Yeah, keeping the plastic flowing is a major issue when the game necessitates new rules to go with new releases.

It's interesting to see the response from the community in the form of alternate formats/challenges. Reminds me of CCGs where cards are deliberately printed with power disarity but are still relevant to the game because of limiting formats. 

That's just a random thought though. Obviously perfect balance is the way to go for a wargame (or at least near-perfect, so list-building is relevant) but as long as the balance isn't so off that people feel they can't field the models they love I'm happy with it.

 

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Yep i still miss my rider Levi list. Although nowhere near good as another standard Levi's crews i had biggest joy in running it because these great minis.

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