Our worst models

[Rufess]

Some random thought here.

Sure the quantity is the one of default characteristics and strengths of gremlin. The nerf to stuffed piglets was obviously not because the power of the model, but because of the power for easily accessing to over-activation with all master in the faction.

So maybe we should focus on the game mechanism more than the "problematic" model. For example put the activation passing to the base rule instead of just a single ability. Put a limit on available pass per turn to protect the strength of quantity crew and the original passing ability.

[PolishSausage]

10 hours ago, Davie said:

What this thread actually lacks (for the most part) is some Input from other factions. I agree with @Fetid Strumpet in that SS2 Models are problematic regardless of their abilities

We literally discussed this issue in TMOD topic.

People that do not play a given faction advise on balancing issues for other factions. Unless you played 20-30 games with Gremlins, you do not have the experience to provide a sufficient feedback if something is balance or not in a give faction.

As I mentioned previously, you cannot reference to model ability cross factions as everything is balance for that faction. 2ss model would be broken in Ressers, it is not broken in gremlins.

The "balance other faction" issue came up in book 5, where every single faction received borderline game braking models/upgrades and Gremlin players might as well ignore Book 5 content completely. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I completely disagree. And Wyrd’s own policies make that argument for me. If SS costs are relative to each faction, then no cross faction hiring should, or more importantly, could occur. If it’s fair for Gremlins to have a 2SS model and not for another faction, than no other models available for another faction should ever be hiriable into gremlins and vice versa.

Because even if you accept the possibility that it’s possible to have a model or two overlap, as the overlaps continue the balance of abilities available will shift what each faction can bring fairly.

[PolishSausage]

And just as expected Leveticus upgrade states undead-non gremlin models.

Part of play testing is to find out which model can and will be abused by overlap.

Also one of bigger reasons for 2 of Gremlin models ( Burt and Tavish) to get SS increase. 

[tmod]

18 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

hey, go away you non-gremlin player.

internal balance of faction should be left for us to balance out.  "No, no models should be hirible for 2"  is not a correct statement as all factions are different.

Or would you like me to take away your broken kentaroi ?

 

PS: Since your summoning engine Asura makes a model FOR FREE every turn, you shouldn't argue against 2ss models.

I don't think this is useful. The best you can hope to achieve is to shout down legitimate disagreement, and even if you achieve your goal of supporting the view that piglets got hit too hard, we're all worse of for it. It would encourage others to shout even louder, and we've got a shouting match on our hands.

Fetid raises a valid point, and I think it's undeniable that 2ss models in general is right on the edge of what the game can deal with. I personally don't agree that limited amounts of 2ss models (like totems) are a problem, but the 6x stuffed piglets package was definitely threatening to be game breaking in my opinion. I cannot how Asura is comparable, but she is definitely putting some strain on the game in some crews...

I think the biggest problems with stuffed piglets going up was the indirect hit to the pigapult. Second I think a spamable 2ss model was one of the unique elements that set Gremlins apart as a horde faction. Loosing that was, for better or worse, a blow to the faction identity. The other unique element was the only useful 3ss model hirable in multiples. I still think Bayou Gremlins are useful, but no longer uniquely so after the points drop for Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs. Together those changes are problematic, it's not in itself problematic that Stuffed Piglets are no longer 2ss (and Fetid does have a point in that no 2ss models would be healthier for the game)...

[Dogmantra]

having a balanced game isn't a competition

[PolishSausage]

I know I might come of on the FAAAr right side of this, but it feels that while other factions keep getting stronger and stronger

with better errata buffs that open up new crew compositions and old forgotten models, we keep getting weaker.

We not only got shafted book 5 with extremely underwhelming models or those that pay through the nose for diversity, the erratas have hit our key pieces.

Both Brin and Criers could have been released at 6ss, and they would still be occasional hires. Wrestlers need SS reduction ( take 1wd off and reduce Ml7 to Ml6 )

 

While I see this unique faction burn down in flames I feel that majority of fault is on the outcries of Nerf from other factions, from players that have never played as Gremlins.

[tmod]

1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

I know I might come of on the FAAAr right side of this, but it feels that while other factions keep getting stronger and stronger

[...]

While I see this unique faction burn down in flames I feel that majority of fault is on the outcries of Nerf from other factions, from players that have never played as Gremlins.

I have a lot of sympathy for this, especially the latter paragraph. But I don't think the best way to fight "outcries of Nerf" is with more outcries. If we are to add something meaningful to the discussion it's important to rise above faction v. faction group-think, and strive for what's best for the game based on our own experienses. For the sake of the game we're all best served with as good balance as possible; if gremlins had been two levels above everyone else we'd all get bored as well.

I don't always agree with Fetid (often though), but he deserves recognition for being involved and caring for balance and the game since pretty much the dawn of the Dark Ages or thereabouts. He, the game, the Gremlin faction and the community deserves better than him (or others) getting chased away from a topic for stating their opinion!

[Fetid Strumpet]

I was chased away? Hmmm news to me.

 

[tmod]

3 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I was chased away? Hmmm news to me.

 

Nah, but it seemed like that was the objective. You might be hard to chase off, but given enough tries, who knows? Also, not the best way to create dialogue, even if not successful.. 🙂

[Math Mathonwy]

9 hours ago, tmod said:

I think the biggest problems with stuffed piglets going up was the indirect hit to the pigapult.

I fully agree that something needed to be done (I'm with you that 2SS Totems can be balanced but 2SS hireable models without meaningful restrictions (Rare 6 isn't meaningful) are too much) but the gigantic 50% price increase didn't hit only the Pigapult but also made the Stuffeds basically extinct as anything aside from Taxidermist summons. Creative Taxidermy was a box that was commonly suggested for newbies because it was good value for all Masters even though it lazily included duplicate sculpts of the Stuffeds. But now it's very much not at the top of recommendations.

With Flying Piglets the point was made multiple times during the beta that no one is ever going to hire these yet they were still released in the state where they are obviously over-costed as hires. So were I to buy their box (the minis are great!) I'd have no less than nine summon-only models for my two Taxidermists. Which is completely crazy!

[daniello_s]

44 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I fully agree that something needed to be done (I'm with you that 2SS Totems can be balanced but 2SS hireable models without meaningful restrictions (Rare 6 isn't meaningful) are too much) but the gigantic 50% price increase didn't hit only the Pigapult but also made the Stuffeds basically extinct as anything aside from Taxidermist summons. Creative Taxidermy was a box that was commonly suggested for newbies because it was good value for all Masters even though it lazily included duplicate sculpts of the Stuffeds. But now it's very much not at the top of recommendations.

With Flying Piglets the point was made multiple times during the beta that no one is ever going to hire these yet they were still released in the state where they are obviously over-costed as hires. So were I to buy their box (the minis are great!) I'd have no less than nine summon-only models for my two Taxidermists. Which is completely crazy!

Hear hear!

[Morgan Vening]

31 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

With Flying Piglets the point was made multiple times during the beta that no one is ever going to hire these yet they were still released in the state where they are obviously over-costed as hires. So were I to buy their box (the minis are great!) I'd have no less than nine summon-only models for my two Taxidermists. Which is completely crazy!

How about something like the following.

Creepy Hobby
0SS
They're like rabbits!
During the Upkeep step of the first turn, you may summon a Stuffed Piglet into base contact with two other Stuffed Piglets not in base contact.
Feathers and a Sewing Kit
During the Upkeep step of the first turn, sacrifice a Stuffed Piglet not in base contact with another model, to summon a Flying Piglet within 4".

Solves the two issues, I think. The first returns the Stuffed Piglets to 2SS, at the cost of one being Slow, having them be clustered together (adds a little risk against early blast/pulse) and requiring a 7SS investment to get each triplet, so just spamming for activation isn't going to be as easy (you get 4 activations for 13SS). The second drops the effective cost of the Flying Piglets, again only if you already spent 7SS, and isn't able to be combined with the first. The slow is mitigated by the extra 4" range.

So a pair of Taxidermists (14SS) can either have 6 Stuffed Piglets or 3 Stuffed Piglets and up to two Flying Piglets for 12SS. I can't see 7-8 activations for 26SS being particularly broken.

[cfrag]

 

 

9 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

We not only got shafted book 5 with extremely underwhelming models or those that pay through the nose for diversity, the erratas have hit our key pieces

I kind of feel the same. Instead of complaining here in the forums I instead chose to just not buy models from this latest wave. This is a big change for me though, since I have nearly all m2e gremlins there are ( including limited editions). So, even if @PolishSausage may come as abrasive, at least he cares enough about the game to post here in the forums. I just don't care enough since I play 1game/month on average and I have enough models to last me a lifetime, so I'd say he's doing a lot more for the game than I am, even if his words come out wrong.

1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

So were I to buy their box (the minis are great!) I'd have no less than nine summon-only models for my two Taxidermists. Which is completely crazy!

That s exactly how I feel. There's no way I'm buying those flying pigs when I don't particularly like the model and already have 1 taxidermist and 5 stuffed that never see play.

[Adran]

17 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

We literally discussed this issue in TMOD topic.

People that do not play a given faction advise on balancing issues for other factions. Unless you played 20-30 games with Gremlins, you do not have the experience to provide a sufficient feedback if something is balance or not in a give faction.

As I mentioned previously, you cannot reference to model ability cross factions as everything is balance for that faction. 2ss model would be broken in Ressers, it is not broken in gremlins.

The "balance other faction" issue came up in book 5, where every single faction received borderline game braking models/upgrades and Gremlin players might as well ignore Book 5 content completely. 

I think the fact that the majority of the people that appeared to hire the Stuffed piglets at 2 ss did so just for the activation control, and not for what the model did suggests that you might be wrong on it not being broken within gremlins.

Gremlins are still a faction of extremes (it wasn't all that long ago the forums were discussing the "unbeatable" pig list, which abused a wave 5 model, the Gremlin Crier). 

 

[Math Mathonwy]

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

I think the fact that the majority of the people that appeared to hire the Stuffed piglets at 2 ss did so just for the activation control, and not for what the model did suggests that you might be wrong on it not being broken within gremlins.

"Only Half a Brain: After this model finishes its activation, the opponent may choose another model with this Ability who has to activate as a chain activation."

8 minutes ago, Adran said:

Gremlins are still a faction of extremes (it wasn't all that long ago the forums were discussing the "unbeatable" pig list, which abused a wave 5 model, the Gremlin Crier). 

Abused it to death no less  

[Haagrum]

11 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

"Only Half a Brain: After this model finishes its activation, the opponent may choose another model with this Ability who has to activate as a chain activation."

I heartily endorse this suggested rewording for our formerly-2SS models. The real grief was from out-activation, which this addresses neatly.

[daniello_s]

32 minutes ago, Adran said:

 

Gremlins are still a faction of extremes (it wasn't all that long ago the forums were discussing the "unbeatable" pig list, which abused a wave 5 model, the Gremlin Crier). 

Which can be easily shut down by Outcasts before it starts even spinning (Hans or Hans + Trapper). 

[Haagrum]

56 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Which can be easily shut down by Outcasts before it starts even spinning (Hans or Hans + Trapper). 

In Hans' case, it's down to the Rams trigger, not his damage. The only problem is that he really needs both his 0s or an external source of Focus and/or Fast to make the most of it, because he has to activate early to guarantee landing hits unless you've drawn a Ram and at least one 13.

[daniello_s]

Not really. Just wait till Crier suffers one damage for taking the card and then hit him hard. 

By the way - if you declare Outcasts and your opponent declares Gremlins Hans is an auto-take because he can shut down so many Gremlin key models and basically put them on the back foot straight at the start. I'm telling you from my experience as ex-Outcast/current Gremlin player.

[Haagrum]

1 hour ago, daniello_s said:

Not really. Just wait till Crier suffers one damage for taking the card and then hit him hard. 

Assuming he's visible behind the wall of War Pigs, that is...

I'm not trying to undermine your suggestions - just pointing out that it's not necessarily a lock.

[daniello_s]

37 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

Assuming he's visible behind the wall of War Pigs, that is...

I'm not trying to undermine your suggestions - just pointing out that it's not necessarily a lock.

Hans doesn't need LOS - courtesy of Scout the Field aka as The Worst Gremlin Nightmare🤣

[Haagrum]

8 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Hans doesn't need LOS - courtesy of Scout the Field aka as The Worst Gremlin Nightmare🤣

If he's got Scout The Field, he doesn't have Enhanced Sight to gain Focused as a 0. That makes range an issue on turn 1, even with I Pay Better.

Also, that combination is only available in one faction. The War Pigs list was a discussion for Guild players, and Hans with his Rams trigger is available for everyone. That said, how many people take Hans these days?

[PolishSausage]

many

[Davie]

and many don't.

Don't get me wrong, I think all snipers are a threat, especially Hans.

And since he got buffed he is picked more often than before. But I think he is a much discussed model amon outcasts-players.