What kind of help does Colette need?

[WWHSD]

Colette seems like a master that a lot of Arcanist players want to play but end up not using much due to various issues with her.
 
It seems like her problems fall into a couple of categories:

Durability: She stays alive through gimmicks. Anything that can circumvent those gimmicks just mows her down.
Lack of Damage Output: It's not that she isn't a beater, but she's got attacks that wouldn't be considered good on a 6 stone minion let a lone a master.
Bad/Expensive Upgrades: She's got way too many 2 point upgrades and upgrades that don't seem to do enough.

I've been thinking about what would need to be done to make her a master that could hold her own against the top tier of Arcanist masters. 

1. Change Death Defying to a "When this model would be killed ..." ability instead of a trigger.
2. Drop the cost of 'A Lady's Secret' and 'Audience Participation' to 1 soul stone.
3. On the upgrade 'The Dancing Blade',  change the wording of 'Flashy Twirls' to:

"Flash Twirls: When this model declares The Saber Trick Action, it may take the Action as a 1 AP action instead of a 0 AP action. It may discard a friendly Scheme Marker within 8" when the action is declared. If it does so, any model damaged by the Action also becomes Slow." 

4. Move the action 'Trick of the Hat' from the upgrade 'Cabaret Choreography' onto Colette's card. The line "This Action may not be taken if this crew hired a Totem other than a Mechanical Dove" gets changed to "This Action may not be taken unless this crew hired a Mechanical Dove".
5. 'Cabaret Choreography' gets a new ability on it that drops the from the TN of 'Trick of the Hat' and gives the that action a trigger on :
": Instead of summoning a Mechanical Dove, this model may summon Mannequin into base contact with target scheme marker within 6". Discard target scheme marker after summoning. This trigger may only be declared once per turn".  


The change to Death Defying gives her some survivability against attacks that ignore triggers while not making her impossible to kill if your opponent didn't bring tech to kill her. The changes to 'The Dancing Blade' give Colette an option to be a bit more hands on in dealing damage. Moving 'Trick of the Hat' to the base card gives Colette a bit more ability to support her crew through the summoning and sacrificing of Doves while the change to Cabaret Choreography makes summoning Doves easier and provides and option for bringing Mannequins into the game. Finally, dropping the upgrades to 1 stone make them a better value for what they do. 

 Am I way off on what Colette needs to make a comeback? Did I go overboard or not far enough? 

[Cedar]

I agree with almost anything you stated above, however 

3 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

4. Move the action 'Trick of the Hat' from the upgrade 'Cabaret Choreography' onto Colette's card. The line "This Action may not be taken if this crew hired a Totem other than a Mechanical Dove" gets changed to "This Action may not be taken unless this crew hired a Mechanical Dove".

Colette card has a lot of text right now and this change probably wouldn't happen as there is no space for printing new Action. Maybe increasing range of her Sabre Trick to 10" (14" with trigger from A Lady's Secret) would be great instead.

 

[WWHSD]

12 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I agree with almost anything you stated above, however 

Colette card has a lot of text right now and this change probably wouldn't happen as there is no space for printing new Action. Maybe increasing range of her Sabre Trick to 10" (14" with trigger from A Lady's Secret) would be great instead.

 

Yeah, that's a lot to put on her card. I was looking for a way to increase the amount of support she could provide without forcing her to come with particular upgrades (which is kind of where Ironsides is now).

[Fetid Strumpet]

I fail to see how changing death defying so it wasn’t a trigger doesn’t effectively make her effectively impossible to kill. Sure it’s theoretically possible, but in practical application it would almost never happen.

I don’t think she can be fixed under her current rules. You can’t ignore that she effectively can give a large portion of her crew an effective AP for free, nor how her other interactions work. And her strength is directly proportional to how strong dropping scheme markers are, which changes every year so what works this year might be totally impotent the next.

If you were looking to make Colette better a better course of action would be to completely decouple her from her scheme marker mechanics and rebuild her from the ground up in a similar but more comprehensive manner to Lucius.

[dancater]

Agreed WWHSD, as always.

Love Colette, my first and favorite master, but right now she is painful to play.

She has steadily gone from early 2E boring and over powered 3x prompt play (not everyone but a default).  To boring and under powered.

Her durability is flawed on several counts:

• First it is easy to bypass with certain models which prevent triggers, then she's doomed.
• Second she has so few wounds and no other defense tech that after turn two it feels like a constant fight against death, even with her death defying stunts working. 
• Third it is fairly 'resource' intensive, she can eat up a lot just staying alive.
• Fourth given that she is a support master that does not do much, why worry.  Particularly after the first turns as models separate and attrition takes hold she quickly runs out of things to do.

I'd like two more wounds and also to do as you said and remove the trigger from her Death Defy.  Maybe even give her something like bullet proof, a protection against all non-melee () attacks - A trick with Mirrors - this model reduces the damage from all non  attacks by 2.

Next she is, basically boring.  A poor support piece that feels like a slightly more durable Angelica.  She is a obey master with huge limitations and does negligible damage.

• She could be faster - perhaps a (1) Tactical action which gives her a place - (1) An Illusionists entrance - Ca 7 (14) place this model anywhere within 8' of her current position - Trigger () With props and place a friendly scheme marker in base to base. 
• Perhaps give her an ability (or better an upgrade) proper obey which works on enemy models, call it - Audience Participation   
• I like the idea of giving her affack slow, or perhaps something which shows the enemy is confused - so after the attack or a trigger push (or even push and obey) the target, call it - Clear the Stage

In essence I think she needs a huge Lucius style re-work in her current form, she is under powered, bland and feels non-thematic.  Which is terrible.

I also would love to see another damage dealing Showgirl, her crew needs a cheap pain delivery option (not to much but a reliable mid-range damage, or lower but with tricks) in theme.  It should not be Colette, I don't think she should ever be a damage master, but one about tricks and twists.  It's just at the moment she isn't one or the other.

[dancater]

2 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I fail to see how changing death defying so it wasn’t a trigger doesn’t effectively make her effectively impossible to kill. Sure it’s theoretically possible, but in practical application it would almost never happen.

I don’t think she can be fixed under her current rules. You can’t ignore that she effectively can give a large portion of her crew an effective AP for free, nor how her other interactions work. And her strength is directly proportional to how strong dropping scheme markers are, which changes every year so what works this year might be totally impotent the next.

If you were looking to make Colette better a better course of action would be to completely decouple her from her scheme marker mechanics and rebuild her from the ground up in a similar but more comprehensive manner to Lucius.

Yep, 110% agree.

And I really think she is a truly unique piece, no other war game (or nearly any game) has a force comprised of cabaret girls, dancers and actors.  It is so uniquely Malifaux, a crew primarily about flash, glitz and illusion - it breaks about every war game stereotype their is, thats why I love her and her theme crew and why I'd like to see some re-working.  I've written about this before on several other threads.

Really hope the Wyrd-Thralls are looking at some ideas.

[Fetid Strumpet]

She also suffers from something that has plagued Seamus in that one of her abilities limits design space that could be used to help her. In her case it’s her extra SS she gets every turn. Sure it’s thematic but it is also partly responsible for her not getting other abilities that meet the current power level of competitive masters.

[WWHSD]

30 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I fail to see how changing death defying so it wasn’t a trigger doesn’t effectively make her effectively impossible to kill. Sure it’s theoretically possible, but in practical application it would almost never happen.

I don’t think she can be fixed under her current rules. You can’t ignore that she effectively can give a large portion of her crew an effective AP for free, nor how her other interactions work. And her strength is directly proportional to how strong dropping scheme markers are, which changes every year so what works this year might be totally impotent the next.

If you were looking to make Colette better a better course of action would be to completely decouple her from her scheme marker mechanics and rebuild her from the ground up in a similar but more comprehensive manner to Lucius.

The change to Death Defying wouldn’t make much difference against models that don’t ignore triggers since it is a buol in trigger. The models that do ignore triggers and damage reduction are still tearing through her 8 Wds fairly quickly but at least she’d have some defense with Death Defying. It is killing a model that costs at least 5 stones everytime it goes off and if that model isn’t at least fairly healthy she’s going to need to do it again soon. How many models does the average Colette crew bring that are at least 5 stones that you’d be willing to sacrifice to keep Colette alive? I’m guessing it isn’t many and each use of death defying is probably pulling Colette closer to the where the enemy wants her.

I do think you’ve got a valid point about how the strength of laying down a bunch of scheme markers in whatever the current version of Gaining Grounds can drastically effect her percieved strength as a master. Fitzsimmons and the Saboteurs will hopefully normalize that a bit by allowing scheme markers to be weaponized.

I’m just spitballing here. Nothing will probably come of it but hopefully talking about what people would like to see happen with Colette will help her get some attention in the next rounds of errata.

[WWHSD]

12 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

She also suffers from something that has plagued Seamus in that one of her abilities limits design space that could be used to help her. In her case it’s her extra SS she gets every turn. Sure it’s thematic but it is also partly responsible for her not getting other abilities that meet the current power level of competitive masters.

I always thought that was balanced out by her relatively low starting cache, the limitation that the “free” soulstone could only be used to add a suit to duel total, and that you had to have a soulstone to spend to use it.

[Boomstick]

As far as her durability goes, the biggest issue I've seen recently is the large number of new and newish models with damage that 'cannot be reduced'. I understand that this was an easier way of writing 'ignoring armor and incorporeal' for the most part, but it really was, in my opinion, over done and not meant to ignore triggers.

Avoiding or focusing down a model or two who ignore triggers is fine, there should be some counter play to everything. But there's just too many know. I instantly stop considering Colette when Gremlins is declared, because Zipp can and will take her out, usually turn 1, if not, 2.

I would say make both of her triggers no longer reduce damage. 'Ignore' or even 'prevent' would still produce the desired effect, and it would still be countered by things that ignore triggers and blasts.

Also agree with @WWHSD about her upgrades: for as many as she has, too many are over-costed (at the time as a balancing effect for her being so good). I really like your suggested reworking of Cabaret Choreography to potentially summon Mannequins, though I would keep it all on the upgrade.

The Dancing Blade upgrade would, I think, be quite useful (even more so with WWHSD's suggested change) if you didn't have to also bring A Lady's Secret to make her Saber Trick work. You could put her Saber Trick trigger from Lady's Secret on her card, drop Lady's Secret to 1ss, and put another trigger on there for her Teleport to either send a second model along (including Colette), or perform it on an enemy model -- not quite an Obey, but certainly in her idiom: *Poof* you fell through a trap door! Now you're over there! Hahah!

Audience Participation as it stands wouldn't be bad, if it's action had just one less hoop to jump through, since it's not opposed, and if the Focused aura also affected Peons -- Mannequins damage tracks are MADE for focus! I do like the idea of giving her an Obey as well as suggested above if this upgrade were to be completely reworked, but I also enjoy that she's not "the Arcanist Obey master".

I personally don't find her boring, though I have been playing her more aggressively lately (away from models with irreduceable damage) and have actually gotten good use of making models slow. And her Hooked Cane is super fun to use for the built in Aura disguise trigger, though when it's the most use requires some setup or a sizable shift in playstyle. What I would say is, if only for game consistency, remove the current once per turn per model restriction on Prompt and make it the same as Obey: once per turn per model if used to attack.

That's my thought explosion for the moment. I'm sure I'll be back. She's my first Arcanist master and consistently vying for my favorite over all, competing against Brewie. If they opened a venue together I would surely frequent that establishment.

[retnab]

My thoughts on what would help Colette:

Before even looking at her card, I personally really dislike how she has two upgrades dedicated almost exclusively to The Saber Trick.  I would really want it merged into a single upgrade.  In fact, looking at her offensive abilities I'd remove Hooked Cane entirely and give its triggers to The Saber Trick.  I'd make her Df 5 Wp 7, to help show she's more of a trickster than a combatant.  Make Death Defying an ability instead of a trigger, and remove the  from her Df.  It has the pretty significant cost of killing a friendly model already, no sense in making it avoidable beyond that.

People are obviously not happy with Prompt's current state, but I feel like where it currently is is good and would rather other things got buffs instead.  Not sure how to fix this for other people, but IMO if we were going to let this target models multiple times then the range should be shrunk so Colette needs to be closer to the action to do any Howard related shenanigans.  I feel like Disappearing Act needs... something.  Maybe a range increase, or maybe let you do it the other way around (swap a nearby Scheme Marker with a far-off model)?  This and Rehearsed feel like what should be Colette's core, nobody else in the faction has the movement/scheme shenanigans she has and IMO she could go way deeper into it (like Titania/Parker have).  Audience Participation needs more work.  I have no idea what to do with it.  Nothing Up My Sleeve also needs something.  I'd really like this to be some passive effect, like if the opponent does X you can spend a ss for two cards or vice versa, so you're not taking up a Master AP for it.

[WWHSD]

4 minutes ago, retnab said:

Before even looking at her card, I personally really dislike how she has two upgrades dedicated almost exclusively to The Saber Trick.  I would really want it merged into a single upgrade.  In fact, looking at her offensive abilities I'd remove Hooked Cane entirely and give its triggers to The Saber Trick.  

If you removed Hooked Cane then you'd leave Colette unable to engage models or perform disengaging strikes. She'd also be unable to to make any attacks other than a single 0 action Saber Trick each activation unless should took the upgrade that allowed that to be taken as a one AP action and then she'd need to burn scheme markers to make those attacks..

 

[retnab]

Yeah, but I'd kind of be okay with that.  Focusing her more into hyper mobility and interacts and making her less attack focused is what I'd really like to see.  If she gets engaged she can Disappearing Act away, using my idea Disappearing Act someone to her, Prompt someone else to kill it, etc.

Also, how does she not have Don't Mind Me?  She seems like the perfect Master for it.

[WWHSD]

23 minutes ago, retnab said:

People are obviously not happy with Prompt's current state, but I feel like where it currently is is good and would rather other things got buffs instead.  Not sure how to fix this for other people, but IMO if we were going to let this target models multiple times then the range should be shrunk so Colette needs to be closer to the action to do any Howard related shenanigans. 

If Prompt was going to get touched to allow models to be targeted more than once per turn I'd think of the two options would be the way to go:

1. Make it work like Obey. A model can be Prompted multiple times but can only take one attack action per turn via Prompt. 
2. The once per round limitation doesn't apply to Showgirls (and maybe minions). 

[WWHSD]

10 minutes ago, retnab said:

Yeah, but I'd kind of be okay with that.  Focusing her more into hyper mobility and interacts and making her less attack focused is what I'd really like to see.  If she gets engaged she can Disappearing Act away, using my idea Disappearing Act someone to her, Prompt someone else to kill it, etc.

Also, how does she not have Don't Mind Me?  She seems like the perfect Master for it.

If you killed her ability to engage models and perform disengaging strikes, maybe she should get something like Agile so the lack of stickiness to engagement goes both ways.

[Ludvig]

I think that if her defensive triggers couldn't be ignored by so many models she would see a lot more play. Maybe up the range on her marker trigger as well. That alone would probably do a lot for her. Not every master can survive a hit and get reactivate from it (even if you need to sacrifice a performer for it).

[WWHSD]

38 minutes ago, retnab said:

Nothing Up My Sleeve also needs something.  I'd really like this to be some passive effect, like if the opponent does X you can spend a ss for two cards or vice versa, so you're not taking up a Master AP for it.

Have it let Colette draw a card if a scheme marker is discarded during a model's activation. Word it so that only one card gets drawn per activation and that scheme marker discards that happen outside of an activation (end of turn schemes for example) do not generate cards.

Let it trade two cards for a SS at the start of her activation if she has less than a certain number of stones. Or maybe let her discard a number of cards equal to the number of soulstones that the crew has +1 to get a soulstone.

[anencephalous]

I think Colette has the reverse problem to TT. TT has such good support that the beaters cannot be too good. Yasunori is statistically weaker than any of the heavy hitters in other factions. But with Recalled Training, fast, damage immunity and many pushes, he becomes a monster.

On the other hand, Colette, who has a similar role to Shenlong - a utility support master, cannot be too strong because the elite models in Arcanists are so good. Imagine Shenlong with Joss and Howard packing Recalled Training, it would be outrageous.

Colette's nurf would not have been needed had she been a TT master. No one would have been complaining if she was 3x Prompting min 2-3 damage models (well, not as much). In many ways Howard et al are the problem, not Colette.

I can think of several ways to make Colette more fun as a support master, but they are always going to be force multipliers, and with such good elite models, it makes her hard to balance.

In the short term, the simplest quality of life change would be to make Now You See Me reworded as "After suffering damage, sacrifice a scheme marker within 1" to prevent all damage, then place this model within 6". This trigger may always be declared."

That will give her significantly more survivability without just being unkillable. Having a defensive trigger she can always use, like Hoffman getting armour that always works, is such a key part of her kit identity I think it makes sense.