I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

[Da Git]

6 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Maybe Beacon beacon becomes a condition that Sandeep gains when he activates that lasts until the end of the game. Using Student of All would remove the condition. This would limit when Sandeep’s crew could borrow his actions if he’s chooses to use Student of All.

If he doesn’t choose to use Student of All it forces him to activate earlier in the first turn if he intends to use any of the Beacon abilities to move his crew around. This would also give opponents some counter play against Beacon and Student of All through the use of offensive condition removal.

Maybe toss some language in the condition that prevents the condition from being gained in any manner other then what is specified to future proof it against abilities that move or copy conditions.

I think this is an awesome idea. It puts a fairly hard choice on Sandeep, either use Student of All and lose Beacon till his next activation, or don't Student of all when you want to. 

[Adran]

14 hours ago, raderk said:

Also when i say that hes too good you want me to prove tournaments won by those two. When i provide you with such you say its players not the masters. Why do you even bother talking with me if you care about my point so little.

Because I can look at the Polish and UK ranked games for the year and see that in the 30 events included, Arcanists won 2 of those events 

Its hard to say he is dominating, when the only numbers I can see don't show Arcanist doing above average. Also from a very brief look, there is not an unusually high number of Arcanist players in these events, if anything there are slightly lower than average Arcanist players. Now it is certainly possible that all these arcanist players are in fact Sandeep players, and what you are seeing is that Sandeep is the most played master because the other factions have a better master spread, leading to the player perception that Sandeep is dominating. I can't tell that from the numbers we have. 

Now I haven't looked at Arcanist placings across all these events, and you might well find that they are placing relatively well, but there are certainly cases of them placing poorly. 

The results you are are providing are the few cases where Sandeep wins, not the many events where he doesn't, which is selective bias.

So other than showing that Sandeep has won 3 events this year,  and providing the view that he is too strong, you haven't proved your point. I'm not actually sure how you could prove the point you claim. 

Showing that Arcanists (and I assume that all 3 are mono Sandeep players) won 3 events from 31 this year (8 Polish, 22 UK and the Swedish GT since you brought it up) doesn't in anyway prove that he isn't broken, but its not looking great as even anecdotal evidence that he is too strong compared to other factions. (Too strong when compared within faction is something else). 

 

Please feel free to make your points, but "look he came third at the welsh GT he must be broken", doesn't really prove a point. (Arcanists also came 5th, 21st and 25th, so out of a spread of 28 players people are doing as badly with Arcanists as they are doing well.)

 

 

 

[raderk]

The thing is, when you just look at events results you are not able to get a complete picture. Like thatlatinguy spoke earlier - take a look at huge spike of Przemek's results at tournaments.

[Adran]

1 hour ago, raderk said:

The thing is, when you just look at events results you are not able to get a complete picture. Like thatlatinguy spoke earlier - take a look at huge spike of Przemek's results at tournaments.

Completely agree that event results will not tell you the whole story. 

Unfortunately looking at Przemeks results don't quite tell you that he suddenly drastically improved when he started playing Sandeep.  They show an improvement over time. 

Just looking at the rankings doesn't give me a full story, but He did much better as a neverborn player than he did as a TT player, and so whilst there was a large improvement when he left TT and went to Arcanists, it wasn't much larger than the drop he had when he left Neverborn to go to TT, especially when that is 7 months later. 

 

 

 

 

[raderk]

Like I said, you need the whole picture. Like who was in all those events (how competetive was envioroment), did he got lucky with pairings, how many rounds that events had, everything. you need to breakdown every single thing to get the full picture. I know him. I see the huge spike. I see huge spike for every sandeep player here. Same goes for Nico. Thats why i argue about sandeep being OP. Cause even Przemek agrees that he is overpowered.

[tmod]

50 minutes ago, raderk said:

Like I said, you need the whole picture. Like who was in all those events (how competetive was envioroment), did he got lucky with pairings, how many rounds that events had, everything. you need to breakdown every single thing to get the full picture. I know him. I see the huge spike. I see huge spike for every sandeep player here. Same goes for Nico. Thats why i argue about sandeep being OP. Cause even Przemek agrees that he is overpowered.

Which doesn't prove a thing unless it's the same across the board in most if not all metas. What you've seen could easily be just random, but it could also be that the Polish meta suck against Sandeep; ie you need to learn how to beat him. From the data points we have that seems much more likely than him being simply on a different level than everyone else.

I think you'd rallied broad support behind adjusting Sandeep so he'd be less dominating within Arcanists, and provide more difficult choices for the Sandeep player. Hence my suggestions  (no, plea more like it), focus your energies on how to make the game more interesting rather than just cry "omg, he's unbeatable and breaks the game" when the evidence we have CLEARLY don't support that (maybe outside of the Polish meta).

You are right that we (non-Polish Nationals players) don't have the whole picture, but neither do you. Maybe a few Polish players have managed to break the game by using Sandeep better than anyone else, but the more likely explanation is that they've broken the Polish meta. If this success is not replicated across the board the onus is on you Polish guys to learn how to take Sandeep down a notch, not om Wyrd to bail you out.

[raderk]

swedish nationals and welsh GT doesnt support this fact either i suppose. Youre an arcanist player, right?

[Rillan]

To tie u both up i think that u both missing one little fact. Since u know your Opponent gonna play Sandeep (and he will cause mostly its either Sandeep 50+% Marcus 30+% Others 20+%) its not so hard to figure out what to take so game was 50-50 but in those cases when u don't have generally good enough Master then it's free win for Sandeep.

 

And even if its no Sandeep other Arcanist Masters cant push u so hard that u afraid to misstep.

 

Agree every Master can win a game but not everyone is prepared to fight anyone. And Sandeep here is a God cause it doesn't matter who he is facing.

[bedjy]

Can Sandeep players help us find out how to beat Sandeep ?
What are the strategies you fear to face ? When do you find yourself being countered ? Cause at this time, I still don't see.

And if you got only one winning strategy for opponent faction and everybody use it. Won't you be able to adapt easily ?

[raderk]

Thats the thing. Sandeep has no weak points which can be exploited. He isnt killable like collodi, he has no shortage of interacts like pandora, he isnt weak to being aggresive into his face like hamelin is. Hes good at everything (which fits theme of jack of all trades) but also hes the very best in other. He has dmg, he has interacts, he has pushes so he forgives mistakes made early, and hes not vurneable to alpha strikes thanks to his tankiness. Ofc you can win, hes clearly at advantage.

And I dont think that you can win with any master. The A Tier masters (Collodi, Zipp, Shenlong etc.) is clearly stronger than weaker ones (Colette). Yet I think sandeep with Nico are one level higher thatn the A Tier.

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

15 hours ago, tmod said:

 If Sandeep was on a whole different level than everybody else then a mediocre player with Sandeep should consistently beat great players playing other masters. This is not happening. Or every good player should transition to Sandeep (or Nico) or stop winning. This is not happening. 

Sorry to say that, but this is a classical exmple of a strawman fallacy. Malifaux is a multilayered game of subtlety with relatively good internal balance. You expect good Malifaux player to beat weaker players regularly and in competitive enviroment that happens most of the time. The problem with Sandeep is that after many months of regular gaming good players realized that unlike other A tier masters Sandeep has no exploitable weaknesses - and this is precisely what "being on a different level" in a game like Malifaux means. You have raised the problem of reliable data to support that claim and rightly so - but I'm afraid that we cannot rely on anything else than "anecdotes" and popular opinion, grounded in experience of players, because we don't have anything better (more "objective") at our disposal.

[hemgath]

15 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

But I'm afraid that we cannot rely on anything else than "anecdotes" and popular opinion, grounded in experience of players, because we don't have anything better (more "objective") at our disposal.

Really agree with this review ^^
We certainly must wait for see if Sandeep become effectivelly the "winner of all tournament" (but when i see logfaux or UK tournament, it's not a realitty).
 

[raderk]

you know that with wargaming theres owned army syndrome and people will stick to their factions even if swtiching would give them advantage? Is welsh GT polish NPL and Swedish Nationals not enough for you?

[tmod]

2 hours ago, raderk said:

swedish nationals and welsh GT doesnt support this fact either i suppose. Youre an arcanist player, right?

No and no.

(Well, technically I have all masters in the game, but I mainly play Outcast with Gremlins as my second. Never played Sandeep in fact, and he doesn't seem all that fun to me, powerful or not.)

On the Welsh and Swedish Nationals they don't really support what you're claiming for a few reasons: they're also singular tournaments, and from the results we cannot infer that Sandeep is dominant. But perhaps more importantly, you claimed the numbers doesn't really matter because "all of the Polish meta agrees" (not an excact quote, but you get the idea. The numbers from Poland doesn't really support Sandeep's dominance, but then you claimed "special knowledge". Do you have "special knowledge" of all players in Wales and Sweden as well?

As others have pointed out there's nothing to support the notion that Sandeep is breaking the game yet, and you quoting every sucsessful Sandeep player as "evidence" isn't going to change anything until we start seeing real evidence for it. I'm pretty sure you'd gotten more support for moderate changes to Sandeep if you didn't present your subjective opinion as objective fact. I subjectively support Sandeep getting a closer look from Aaron and co, but I strongly oppose when you and others present your personal feelings as objective facts. They are not. So it seems either you are trolling or you have very little knowledge of discerning facts from opinion. 

[raderk]

So Sandeep placing high in all of those event doesnt prove anything? I dont think that youre going ever to support any argument then. But keep making those strawmans tho.

[raderk]

And Swedes agree about sandeep being op btw.

[tmod]

50 minutes ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

Sorry to say that, but this is a classical exmple of a strawman fallacy. Malifaux is a multilayered game of subtlety with relatively good internal balance. You expect good Malifaux player to beat weaker players regularly and in competitive enviroment that happens most of the time. The problem with Sandeep is that after many months of regular gaming good players realized that unlike other A tier masters Sandeep has no exploitable weaknesses - and this is precisely what "being on a different level" in a game like Malifaux means. You have raised the problem of reliable data to support that claim and rightly so - but I'm afraid that we cannot rely on anything else than "anecdotes" and popular opinion, grounded in experience of players, because we don't have anything better (more "objective") at our disposal.

No, it's not. And if you've read my posts you'll see I'm not opposed to Sandeep getting a change. I'm opposed to the hyperbole. That's not a straw man, that's me saying wild unsubstantiated claims get us nowhere. I'm sure tournaments during the spring will show if Sandeep is too far above the curve stay as he is, based on many anecdotes, and in the end Wyrd will make the right call. But claims like "you cannot win except with Sandeep" will just create noise, and lower the signal to noise ratio, and either have no impact, or make it harder for the Wyrd guys to hit the sweet spot where Sandeep is still good but not op.

[raderk]

Nobody said that you cannot win except with sandeep. thats a hyperbole

[TeddyBear]

In my experience, his crew needs a lot of card, for discarding and many Tn.. just face a crew with many models with terrifying for example, it may put him in trouble..

[Kadeton]

Modhat: I think the thread has started going in circles and stopped being productive. Anything new to add to the discussion?

[tmod]

6 minutes ago, raderk said:

So Sandeep placing high in all of those event doesnt prove anything? I dont think that youre going ever to support any argument then. But keep making those strawmans tho.

"All of those events" are three, and Sandeep presumeable also placed lower. A master winning three somewhat big events is not proof of anything, but three wins is certainly more than one win. There's no strawman here, so keep dodging. Note that I do in fact support Sandeep getting an adjustment, and I have all along, I just don't support hyperbole! And you might also want to quit ad hominen attacks while you're at it...

6 minutes ago, raderk said:

And Swedes agree about sandeep being op btw.

All the Swedes..? Honestly this is excactly the kinda of sweeping claims that undermines all the rest of your argument. It comes across as a group of players who wish for a change and tries to flood the forum with similar sounding claims with only each other as support in order to force a change. That's not the best way to improve the game.

Wyrd has strong  (but not perfect of course!) history of paying attention to the meta to create a balanced game. They are very aware that the recent twice-a-year errata schedule have created a lot of noise making good errata harder to achieve (Aaron said so in a podcast interview just this fall). Trust them to treat the game with respect!

Coming on here and starting this thread after the Polish Nationals was great IMHU; discussion is good, and it's vital that the big shots know about your experience (and everyone else's for that matter!). Unfortunately this discussion have deteriorated badly, where a lot of opinions gets thrown around like facts, and that can get toxic to constructive debate. This thread is on track to get closed down by the mods, and then we all loose out. There have been many ideas of how to make subtle change to Sandeep, and hopefully this will contribute to a better game in the fall (after the July errata), but hyperbole will not!

Honestly I wonder if there's more to be gotten from this discussion as the "Sandeep is OP, it's a fact no one can disagree with"-shouts seem to have drowned out any attempts at finding good solutions... Hope this can still be turned around! 🙂

[tmod]

15 minutes ago, raderk said:

Nobody said that you cannot win except with sandeep. thats a hyperbole

It was implied by claiming he is on a whole different level than everyone else (excepting maybe Nico). Ie "God tier".

But good we can agree the claim is hyperbole! 🙂

[bedjy]

6 minutes ago, Kadeton said:

Modhat: I think the thread has started going in circles and stopped being productive. Anything new to add to the discussion?

Well, I'd like to have some advice from Sandeep players about what to do to counter a Sandeep crew ? What do they would like to avoid ?

[raderk]

Well to be honest this discussion was all in good sport until you started accusing me (others too but mainly me) of using nonmeritoric arguments. Yet your strawman "unless sandeep dominates everything hes not op" stands strong i guess. We provided you with large tournaments in which he placed high. We provided you with players who got huge spike in their tournaments after switching to sandeep. But you dismiss all of that for being anecdotal hyperboles.

Malifaux has pretty small community. Competetive players are low percent of that as it is. So what exactly do you want? A graph showing winratio of all pre and post sandeep players? a global statistic about master winratio?
Too bad. Casual players arent a proof of balance (without maxed out list you cannot test the balance as it is) and theres too little to try making competetive events into a statistic. So all we have left is opinions and the little tournaments we had. Keep in mind that we are playing miniatures game. People dont swtich factions on a whim so we will never achieve true sandeep swarm, like theres no eldar swarm in 40k.

[raderk]

I never said all the swedes. Thats a hyperbole. I meant he competetive, tournaments attending swedes who are apex of their scene (at least those i know).