I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

[WWHSD]

9 minutes ago, raderk said:

Collodi attacks mages. He hit two, third he had to cheat. So he lost one card and attacked all three mages. Too bad that all of the mages discarded a card and trigger doesnt work.

Collodi just burnt Temporary Shielding off all of the Mages and caused Sandeep to discard half his hand in a single activation? That doesn't seem too shabby. There's an opportunity cost for everything. Making your opponent choose between eating the damage and the trigger on a Mage or pitching a card that could have been used to win a duel or meet a TN can be a big deal.

This conversation kind of highlights the problem with threads that give advice on how to deal with a master that someone is having problems with. In most cases the advice is not going to be as simple as "Do this one simple thing and win the game".  The other player usually has some way to react. It wouldn't be a very good game if they didn't. The back and forth arguing about a game in a vaccuum beings and every suggestion gets shot down because there is some series of events or crew composition that may counter it. 

  

[raderk]

3 lowest card out of eight to burn enemy master activation?  Thats cheap.

[santaclaws01]

17 minutes ago, raderk said:

Collodi attacks mages. He hit two, third he had to cheat. So he lost one card and attacked all three mages. Too bad that all of the mages discarded a card and trigger doesnt work.

Yeah its stupid collodi would attack one mage to lock him and then burn the shield on another. Great job, i used whole master activation to burn enemy 2 cards and make one 5ss model slow. Thats a lot i guess?

How is just discarding a card going to make it so the trigger doesn't work? Collodi has a positive to his damage flip with a 2/3/4 track and the upgrade only reduces damage by 2. And considering that Sandeep needs to summon 3 models just to reach the activation count that you started with, there's really no issue with getting Collodi to hit them after they activated. Or they didn't move forward and thus aren't a threat for the next turn anyways. Seems like a win/win for the Collodi Player.

[santaclaws01]

3 minutes ago, raderk said:

I can push lilith with changeling and graves. Then i kill myranda. Then mages sandeep and banasuva kill lilith (shes tanky but with that many opponents she dies). I think its not worthy trade. There is little to none counterplay against Myranda, you just have to endure it and let sandeep get the cards he needs, simple as that. Even if you kill her 4 cards will still go to the sandeeps hand.

I'd really like to know how Banasuva and 3 mages are hitting Lilith through the trees you placed just in front of her to block LoS from her to their entire crew.

[raderk]

you can summon banasuva into the forest and place one mage then push others with captain?

[TeddyBear]

9 minutes ago, raderk said:

you can summon banasuva into the forest and place one mage then push others with captain?

for summoning banasuva there must be a gamin at within 6"..(moment of weakness apart) and for captain there is anna, i'm not here to try to convince you, i'm just try to tell you that eventually "the answer are there"..

 

[raderk]

This is getting ridiculus. If you pushed Lilith so far to be in range for Myranda, Anna cannot follow. Jumping all in and sacrificing everything to kill Myranda isnt a stable way to beat sandeep anyway. I will not continue in discussing this particular table interaction since were hitting moot point. I can see why you think the way you think, but i cannot agree that its a way of beating sandeep, for me its just a way to spend a lot of resources and make my list in a way that puts me at even higher disadvantage.

[WWHSD]

5 minutes ago, raderk said:

3 lowest card out of eight to burn enemy master activation?  Thats cheap.

I guess if you've got Collodi activating early in the turn that might be the case but if Collodi is activating in the second half of the turn the hand of 7 may easily be down to 2 or 3 cards already. The cards from Unaligned Sage only happen if Sandeep has spent 1AP and aren't drawn until another friendly Academic discards a card. The card that the first Mage pitches may very well be a high moderate card or better or a mask needed to hit a TN and could be replaced by something lower after Sandeep suffers a Wd.  

[TeddyBear]

12 minutes ago, raderk said:

This is getting ridiculus. If you pushed Lilith so far to be in range for Myranda, Anna cannot follow. Jumping all in and sacrificing everything to kill Myranda isnt a stable way to beat sandeep anyway. I will not continue in discussing this particular table interaction since were hitting moot point. I can see why you think the way you think, but i cannot agree that its a way of beating sandeep, for me its just a way to spend a lot of resources and make my list in a way that puts me at even higher disadvantage.

Ok, as you wish. You can push also Anna, gravity well is 8 (area), do you prefere not deploy anna you can chose cyclops... 

[Clement]

4 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

for summoning banasuva there must be a gamin at within 6"..(moment of weakness apart) and for captain there is anna. 

 

If only there was a way to arbitrarily place a gamin within 6" of where Banasuva will end up?

Seriously though, my local player will always begin the Banasuva summon by dropping his cheer-leader gamin (who of course gets Commands in Wind) before dropping Banasuva in.  Banasuva will normally get Commands In Flame so he can go full Murder Mode, borrowing Frozen Heart from the cheer-leader if he needs it, otherwise borrowing either armor or explosive demise if he actually wants banasuva to live or not.  (Often he'd rather Banasuva die since Commands in Flame doesn't really help after the first turn).

[Cedar]

I think that the topic derailed a bit, so I'll try to go back to talk about Sandeep.

First of all, he was designed as "Jack of all trades, King of none". For me this is nice idea about him and we should remember it when thinking about adjusting this master. He doesn't do as much damage as Marcus or Raspy and isn't as tanky as Ironsides, but he offers nice crew support in form of Beacon, summons and possible card draw. The problem with him becomes clear when we look at these options - First of all he has best summons in Arcanist faction. Yes, Ramos can summon three spiders per turn. Yes, Raspy summoning big bad Ice Golem is scary. But Sandeep summons have one clear advantage over them - they are extremely versatile due to large spectrum of Gamin models and upgrades that are attached to them. I want to make it clear - I really like his summoning mechanics with upgrades that offer certain advantages and disadvantages to summoned models, but sheer amount of possibilities means that opponent can't prepare for each option. Summoning Wind Gamin with Visions in Wind to leap and remove enemy Symbol of authority and Summoning Visions in Earth Gamin to to protect your own is very powerful - same goes for Commands upgrade, when immune to slow Banasuva charges on turn when he was summoned and Gamin with Commands in Wind increases accuracy of nearby models. Now, combining his kit of versatile attacks, very good resilience with these summons would create reasonable master, but then we stumble across his second great thing - Beacon.

As we know - Beacon gives other models possibility to use Action printed on Sandeep stat card as if it was printed on their card. Sandeep has 4 these actions - two of them require (1) AP, another two are (0) actions. Arcane storm is very good attack for models with cost less than 10 (high cost models like Howard tends to have better attack than this), especially since it ignores cover, doesn't randomize into engagement, can be used even when tied in combat with something meaningless like rat or zombie and has possibility of receiving positive twist to damage flip. The Mind Among Senses is nice lure-like option - better when moving models through forests/swamps/other severe terrain, worse when it comes to maneuvering near obstacles like single tree, walls or barrels. Healing trigger is also nice addition, but it pushes Sandeep resilience to extremely high level  - combining it with Impossible to Wound and Arcane Shield makes him almost as tough as Seamus. His toughness in also increased when we look at his first (0) action - The Path To Salvation. Actions that offer mobility are good in Malifaux, and (0) actions that offer mobility are super good. He requires 5 to pull it off, which is reasonable cost for and action that master may take. Then we look at As Your Deed So Your Destiny. It's another reasonable ability for a master - it's specific 4th AP (5th if we consider Student of all - I'll talk about it in a while) that has 68,5% to work, which means that two out of three times Sandeep should be able to topdeck required card. There is only 18,5% chance to topdeck card required for a trigger, which means that he usually cheats fate or uses Soulstone for a suit. Again - it's reasonable cost for an Action that can be taken by a master.

But Beacon allows other models to take these actions with small penalty. Of course, the chance to topdeck card required to hit place or trigger on interact are rather low (16,6%), but still - these actions are free so unless a player doesn't have an idea how to utilize them in this turn there is no point of not trying them (maybe only when taking interact would prevent player from scoring VP though scheme). Mind Among Senses allow other models to pull their friends into safety - for instance, when Sandeep goes too far and is charged by enemy one of his friends can pull him back, heal himself and if they hit  - even grant Sandeep yet another AP for low price of a card (usually additional Master AP is worth dumping a card). Free movement tricks and interacts for friendly models (which translates to free AP) combined with good attacks that he offers to them, summoning versatile models that can fulfill many roles and great toughness - that's too much. And then there is icing on the cake - The Student Of All - an awesome ability that gives Sandeep additional AP outside of his activation (so he has 3 during his activation, one specific through free action and one outside of it). 

In summary, I think there are few options what we can do about this master (they are not in particular order, also - I don't mean that we should include all of them):

• Increasing Beacon penalty from -1 CA to -2 CA - friendly models would still be able to use "free" actions to move, interact or push friendly models with  ease but their offensive capabilities would be reduced;
• Or make actions used via Beacon to be unable to declare triggers - these actions still would be good, but without positive twists to damage, healing and pushes they would be brought down to reasonable level;
• Changing/removing Student Of All - there are few masters who can obtain additional AP relatively easy, and Sandeep is - in my opinion - second only to Collodi who trades 2 WD for a fast. However, taking Action outside model activation is super good as it allows to react to enemy actions and it's too much when combined with his whole kit;
•  Changing either Impossible to Wound to Hard to Wound or replacing it with Concentrated Shielding would reduce Sandeep resilience which would force a player to be more careful about him;
• Giving  to Arcane Storm and/or Mind Among Senses - in that case the attacks would still be good but finding cover or engaging an enemy would be viable tactics to counter these Actions.

For the purpose of this post I didn't mention Myranda+IE combo or Oxfordian Mages as they shall be subject to another discussion.  

[tmod]

3 hours ago, raderk said:

he has 4 stones in his cache, so easy to jump up to seven. No master in this game has 5 cache if I remember correctly. 

This I agree fully on. There's no doubt in my mind that Sandeep is a strong master. Gamebreaking strong? I don't know, and remain sceptical. But he is certainly not a 4 ss cache that need any free help in my opinion. He could very easily be cache 1 or even 0. I would fully support a change like this (and I suspect there will be a few others come July).

3 hours ago, raderk said:

Is whole faction based around IE Myranda? If so is IE Myranda seeing table every game there is (on comptetive level of course).
If yes thanks for agreeing with me
If not, well youre wrong i suppose?

is it healthy to have whole faction designed about one model combo? Could you show me proof of IEMyranda being the main factor in balancing Arcanists? For what i see her shes just an exploit which makes AR stronger. It was strong with other master, became ridiculus with Sandeep.

I never said the whole faction was based around every crew USING IE Myranda. The trick (or exploit if you dislike it) has been known since book 1, so every wave have been built with thr knowledge that IE Myranda is available as an option; every crew MIGHT take. It's not without it's costs, so will not always be taken. But IE Myranda and Arcane Reservoir have been around since wave 1, and are probably a reason why Arcanists lack other card engines. Removing them during an errata means that card hungry models across the faction lacks a resource they've been designed for. That's why, IF the card surge of IE Myranda causes Sandeep to be op then it'd be better to tone him down in some other way.

I've not seen Myranda in every competitive crew, so I suppose I, along with reality, will have to be wrong... 😛

 

[tmod]

8 minutes ago, Cedar said:

I think that the topic derailed a bit, so I'll try to go back to talk about Sandeep.

First of all, he was designed as "Jack of all trades, King of none". For me this is nice idea about him and we should remember it when thinking about adjusting this master. He doesn't do as much damage as Marcus or Raspy and isn't as tanky as Ironsides, but he offers nice crew support in form of Beacon, summons and possible card draw. The problem with him becomes clear when we look at these options - First of all he has best summons in Arcanist faction. Yes, Ramos can summon three spiders per turn. Yes, Raspy summoning big bad Ice Golem is scary. But Sandeep summons have one clear advantage over them - they are extremely versatile due to large spectrum of Gamin models and upgrades that are attached to them. I want to make it clear - I really like his summoning mechanics with upgrades that offer certain advantages and disadvantages to summoned models, but sheer amount of possibilities means that opponent can't prepare for each option. Summoning Wind Gamin with Visions in Wind to leap and remove enemy Symbol of authority and Summoning Visions in Earth Gamin to to protect your own is very powerful - same goes for Commands upgrade, when immune to slow Banasuva charges on turn when he was summoned and Gamin with Commands in Wind increases accuracy of nearby models. Now, combining his kit of versatile attacks, very good resilience with these summons would create reasonable master, but then we stumble across his second great thing - Beacon.

As we know - Beacon gives other models possibility to use Action printed on Sandeep stat card as if it was printed on their card. Sandeep has 4 these actions - two of them require (1) AP, another two are (0) actions. Arcane storm is very good attack for models with cost less than 10 (high cost models like Howard tends to have better attack than this), especially since it ignores cover, doesn't randomize into engagement, can be used even when tied in combat with something meaningless like rat or zombie and has possibility of receiving positive twist to damage flip. The Mind Among Senses is nice lure-like option - better when moving models through forests/swamps/other severe terrain, worse when it comes to maneuvering near obstacles like single tree, walls or barrels. Healing trigger is also nice addition, but it pushes Sandeep resilience to extremely high level  - combining it with Impossible to Wound and Arcane Shield makes him almost as tough as Seamus. His toughness in also increased when we look at his first (0) action - The Path To Salvation. Actions that offer mobility are good in Malifaux, and (0) actions that offer mobility are super good. He requires 5 to pull it off, which is reasonable cost for and action that master may take. Then we look at As Your Deed So Your Destiny. It's another reasonable ability for a master - it's specific 4th AP (5th if we consider Student of all - I'll talk about it in a while) that has 68,5% to work, which means that two out of three times Sandeep should be able to topdeck required card. There is only 18,5% chance to topdeck card required for a trigger, which means that he usually cheats fate or uses Soulstone for a suit. Again - it's reasonable cost for an Action that can be taken by a master.

But Beacon allows other models to take these actions with small penalty. Of course, the chance to topdeck card required to hit place or trigger on interact are rather low (16,6%), but still - these actions are free so unless a player doesn't have an idea how to utilize them in this turn there is no point of not trying them (maybe only when taking interact would prevent player from scoring VP though scheme). Mind Among Senses allow other models to pull their friends into safety - for instance, when Sandeep goes too far and is charged by enemy one of his friends can pull him back, heal himself and if they hit  - even grant Sandeep yet another AP for low price of a card (usually additional Master AP is worth dumping a card). Free movement tricks and interacts for friendly models (which translates to free AP) combined with good attacks that he offers to them, summoning versatile models that can fulfill many roles and great toughness - that's too much. And then there is icing on the cake - The Student Of All - an awesome ability that gives Sandeep additional AP outside of his activation (so he has 3 during his activation, one specific through free action and one outside of it). 

In summary, I think there are few options what we can do about this master (they are not in particular order, also - I don't mean that we should include all of them):

• Increasing Beacon penalty from -1 CA to -2 CA - friendly models would still be able to use "free" actions to move, interact or push friendly models with  ease but their offensive capabilities would be reduced;
• Or make actions used via Beacon to be unable to declare triggers - these actions still would be good, but without positive twists to damage, healing and pushes they would be brought down to reasonable level;
• Changing/removing Student Of All - there are few masters who can obtain additional AP relatively easy, and Sandeep is - in my opinion - second only to Collodi who trades 2 WD for a fast. However, taking Action outside model activation is super good as it allows to react to enemy actions and it's too much when combined with his whole kit;
•  Changing either Impossible to Wound to Hard to Wound or replacing it with Concentrated Shielding would reduce Sandeep resilience which would force a player to be more careful about him;
• Giving  to Arcane Storm and/or Mind Among Senses - in that case the attacks would still be good but finding cover or engaging an enemy would be viable tactics to counter these Actions.

For the purpose of this post I didn't mention Myranda+IE combo or Oxfordian Mages as they shall be subject to another discussion.  

Well thought out, and well-reasoned post! I think you touch upon something important when you mention that most actions are ok master level actions, but when addes together with Beacon becomes a little too much. It seems to me also that there are a lot of drawbacks and weaknesses to consider, but most are to easily mitigated. Basically the cogs seem to fit together a little too well. I think the first of your list that should be dropped is attacking his resilience, as that makes the melee build even less relevant. I also think his cache should come down!

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, Cedar said:

For the purpose of this post I didn't mention Myranda+IE combo or Oxfordian Mages as they shall be subject to another discussion.  

It's hard to leave out the Mages in any discussion that deals with Student of All since they are a big part of why Sandeep has as easy a time as he does with reliably triggering it but they aren't likely going away anytime soon.

[raderk]

I said few times alredy - his tankiness should move onto his melee upgrade. That would leave option to play him as beater without tanky backline

[tmod]

5 minutes ago, raderk said:

I said few times alredy - his tankiness should move onto his melee upgrade. That would leave option to play him as beater without tanky backline

I've noticed, and I think it's a good idea! :-)

Thought I'd have commented earlier, but must have missed it somehow. 

Actually I think this is the kind of creative thinking that is key in any rebalancing in something as delicate as Sandeep. Hamfisted errata will likely send him to join pre-errata Luscius, but this is a nerf to his most common build, not to Sandeep himself (well, kinda, but I hope my point get across).

In a similar vein, a buff and cost increase to Myranda (as well as maybe a IE at an extra ss) might make her better outside the IE combo, and slightly worse in (without removing it outright), and promote more varied play. Desperately need those four cards? It's gonna cost you 2 extra ss, and you will miss out on the awesome power of Newranda... Not sure this is even viable, but this is my thinking anyway: errata that are not strictly neccessary (ie "quality of life" or game health changes) should promote varied playstyles as much as possible. In my opinion, of course... :-)

[anencephalous]

First of all, I would like to commend Raderk for keeping cool during this discussion. The original post, whether you agree with it or not, was a legitmate opinion to express – that Sandeep is far too strong, based on personal and local experience. The response he has gotten from this expression of opinion has been both bellicose and histrionic, honestly it made me ashamed to be part of the Malifaux community.

But moving on, my problem with Sandeep, and incidently Nico, is not that his kit is so diverse or powerful, but that he is so hard to remove from the table. The Dreamer has an astonishingly diverse and powerful kit, but the downside is he just seven wounds away from waking up fully and annoying his mum for an early breakfast (ie. leaving the game). The defence he does have – incorporeal, defensive triggers and burying, all have clear counter play.

Conversely, Sandeep needs to do nothing to be unkillable, and his defenses can rarely be countered. Not only is this bad for balance, it doesnt make a lot of sense in the fluff. The guy is supposed to be a magical academic. He isn't a zombie, a steam-cyborg or an deity incarnate (I doubt he even lifts, bro) there is no reason in the game or in the fluff for him to be that tough.

I would like to see his wounds dropped to 10, the default for non-combatant humans, think Hoffman, Lucias, Zorida, Asami and Lynch. I would also like his impossible to wound removed. Leave hard/impossible to wound for zombies and grizzled hard mofos, and leave him with arcane shield – the fitting defensive tool for a mage.

At wounds 10 and sans impossible to wound, you would have to think about his safety and placement, rather than just plonking him down somewhere in the middle of the table with good line of sight.

[WWHSD]

4 hours ago, anencephalous said:

I would like to see his wounds dropped to 10, the default for non-combatant humans, think Hoffman, Lucias, Zorida, Asami and Lynch. I would also like his impossible to wound removed. Leave hard/impossible to wound for zombies and grizzled hard mofos, and leave him with arcane shield – the fitting defensive tool for a mage.

At wounds 10 and sans impossible to wound, you would have to think about his safety and placement, rather than just plonking him down somewhere in the middle of the table with good line of sight.

Stripping Sandeep of Impossible to Wd would leave him with Arcane Shield and the healing trigger on his push as his only defense. That leaves him as arguably the squishiest master in your list.  Also, I don't believe that any of the masters on this list other than Sandeep have self damaging abilities. 


Zoraida - Ridiculously high  Wp 10. Df trigger that ends attacker's activation if it inflicts Moderate or Severe Damage. Any attack that isn't focused is on - flips. When near one of her Voodoo Doll she get’s + flip against any model with the Sewn Fate condition.

Hoffman - Potentially has extremely high Df or Wp stats depending on what models are in have Power Loop. Built in Df trigger to use the Armor value of nearby constructs. Has an upgrade that gives him Armor +1.

Lucius - High Df and Wp. Can discard to make attacker suffer - flips. Has an upgrade that gives a Df trigger than lets a nearby Mimic or Guardsman suffer the effects of the attack instead. 

Lynch - Built in Df/Wp trigger to make the attacker take damage if they cheat on the attack action. Can take an upgrade that gives him the Squeel Trigger. Can take an upgrade that allows him to cheat facedown and one that allows him to cheat after the attacker. Can take Misdirection when leading a Ten Thunders crew.

Asami - High Df. Hard to Kill. Zero action that heals 2 Wd for per scheme marker it removes. Can take Misdirection.
  

[anencephalous]

 

Quote

That leaves him as arguably the squishiest master in your list.

Well, let me take you up on that argument.

Lynch has no inbuilt defence at all. None. Ten wounds, then back in the box.

Yes, you can put some upgrades on him, but two of his three upgrades slots are filled with core function upgrades, so you wont see much defence squeezed in. In practice, he folds like... well, a house of cards, I suppose.

Does he die every game? No. He sits at the back, is careful about positioning, and he lives in more than half my games. What he cannot do, is walk to the middle of the board and do his thing while laughing at people attacking him.

I see zero reason why Sandeep could not have the same role. Only, of course, slightly tougher, because arcane shield is awesome. Especially on a summoner who can frequently win activation control.

In many ways the Lynch-Sandeep is a good parallel, because they both rely on a reoccurring, heavy hitting off-siders to do half the work.

I stand by my argument, 10 wounds and no impossible to wound is the easiest fix that does not mess with his core mechanics.

[bedjy]

Well, at the moment, if eliminate the leadership is in the pool, Sandeep can take :
an upgrade giving him Df6 and a one time 2 dmg reduce (that's basically 14Wd, plus soulstones),
a steamfitter that gives him armor +1 (byebye 2 dmg min, that cannot be cheated)
a steamfitter that prevent him from taking a severe (that doesn't happen, he is already ItW, but he will just laugh at your RJ)

And he still can teleport away, heal, be pushed toward a friend etc...

That makes him one of the (if not the most) thoughest master (model ?) in the game. (It can still be killed in some extreme situations or if it is caught completely out of position... but why would you do that ?)
 

[Ludvig]

Well my min 5-6 dudes that can ignore any and all kinds of reductions with a super cheap buff model (Queller) can handle that only flipping min damage. Does Sandeep have some trigger to push or end my activation while I am attacking?

The somewhat troublesome state of the game right now is that you basically need to ignore reductions to have a shot at killing anything worthwhile which has also worked to devalue those conditions.

I don't really have the experience to comment on whether he needs nerfing, is he as good as Levi or Colette (got nerfed) or Nico (hasn't been nerfed).

I'm all in favour of altering models that just ruin the opponents day because of mechanics that leave a bad taste in your mouth. The balance ones are trickier, both Levi and Colette got pretty minor changes and completely disappeared from competitive play. I wonder if it is possible to have every master feel equally powerful, seems the reworks just make another master rise to the "omg how is this possible"-tier every time the king of the hill falls. As I said I don't really have the experience to know if Sandeep really is completely overpowered or if it is just a perception but I do dislike unfun matches.

Sidenote: With the current tournament meta it seems to me like summons not scoring strats would not have been the end of the world as people kept claiming when it was discussed. It felt like the backlash was so bad that it didn't even get proper testing.

[Rillan]

20 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Well my min 5-6 dudes that can ignore any and all kinds of reductions with a super cheap buff model (Queller) can handle that only flipping min damage. Does Sandeep have some trigger to push or end my activation while I am attacking?

The somewhat troublesome state of the game right now is that you basically need to ignore reductions to have a shot at killing anything worthwhile which has also worked to devalue those conditions.

I don't really have the experience to comment on whether he needs nerfing, is he as good as Levi or Colette (got nerfed) or Nico (hasn't been nerfed).

I'm all in favour of altering models that just ruin the opponents day because of mechanics that leave a bad taste in your mouth. The balance ones are trickier, both Levi and Colette got pretty minor changes and completely disappeared from competitive play. I wonder if it is possible to have every master feel equally powerful, seems the reworks just make another master rise to the "omg how is this possible"-tier every time the king of the hill falls. As I said I don't really have the experience to know if Sandeep really is completely overpowered or if it is just a perception but I do dislike unfun matches.

Sidenote: With the current tournament meta it seems to me like summons not scoring strats would not have been the end of the world as people kept claiming when it was discussed. It felt like the backlash was so bad that it didn't even get proper testing.

It is all based what do u nerf.

Big problem comes when people whines about something strong model has and creators nerf it. Imho it a huge mistake. In case of Sandeep i wouldn't change anything in his mechanic, instead make him squisher as anencephalous offered. Removing his ITW and lowing his Wd or Cache would be singnificant. Sandeep has great impact on the game his true strength is that u barely can kill him. In our community none could ever manage to kill Sandeep. But its not like u can't do it. But when Sandeep retreats with pushes and etc u either die chasing either got killed by Sandeep.

[Ludvig]

@Rillan

To you filth it up as well or do you play more easygoing lists compared to the Sandeep player?

We have a lot of guild here so min 5 ignoring all reducions from a Queller is the norm rather than an exception for me. Sam behind a house threatens the entire center of the board Sonnia puts up a flame wall between Sandeep and the mages so he can't ignore conditions before seting him on fire and companioning to Sam with debt for example. Peacekeeper that is immune to conditions with nimble and extra damage is also and option.

Not sure how other factions would handle it since I mostly play with and against guild but Reva ignores everyting and can probably hit him from her deployment. Nico is Nico, neverborn can spam a few stitched and steal actions with Collodi, force activaion order in a number of ways, suck stuff in with Lilith's push at ca 7 or if their wp is too good for tangle or use Lilitu pounce traps. Belles, A&D, fast + nimble Yas. Those are a few things that should outrange him. Walking something up into a gunline is rarely a good plan regardless of who you are facing and I believe most factions have decent min damage and ways to bypass reductions as well as condition removal.

[daniello_s]

34 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

The balance ones are trickier, both Levi and Colette got pretty minor changes and completely disappeared from competitive play.

Ehm, as a seasoned Levi player I can't honestly say it wasn't a minor change done to him. From god-like master (who was indeed too strong with that Channel ability) who could easily kill 6Wd model sitting in the hard cover with his Unmaking he became master who will struggle to kill 6Wd model sitting in such cover. I think it is huge difference and it gives a taste of how easily errata can do good/bad things to every model.

[Ludvig]

5 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Ehm, as a seasoned Levi player I can't honestly say it wasn't a minor change done to him. From god-like master (who was indeed too strong with that Channel ability) who could easily kill 6Wd model sitting in the hard cover with his Unmaking he became master who will struggle to kill 6Wd model sitting in such cover. I think it is huge difference and it gives a taste of how easily errata can do good/bad things to every model.

I meant minor in the sense of a single ability working slightly differently. He also lost a stone from his cache but nothing else, right? I think that proves how much one ability change can do, I don't think the one stone is what broke his back. That bring said I didn't have huge problems with Levi before his nerf, the rat acivation was a lot more problematic for me. If he had stayed the same without rats that might actually have been enough but we will never know. I'm sure Sandeep against pre errata Levi would be an interesting match.