I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

[TeddyBear]

@raderk could i ask you which masters do you generally play?

[raderk]

Collodi and Lilith, trying Pandora lately.

[tmod]

9 minutes ago, raderk said:

I never said all the swedes. Thats a hyperbole. I meant he competetive, tournaments attending swedes who are apex of their scene (at least those i know).

The last bit in parenthesis is a kinda important caveat that was missing earlier is all. With it, your statement is a lot weaker (some Swede(s) I know as opposed to all Swedes in existence), but also a lot more useful, truthful and not hyperbolic. I got involved in this thread only because a lot of you "ganged up" on WWHSD when he presented suggestions for some changes and against some of the more extreme suggestions. Maybe this is largely a language thing, and maybe you didn't intend to come across as hyperbolic. That's fair, but at the same time I didn't want to stand by and watch while seemingly well-meant suggestions got attacked with hyperbolic and ad hominem attacks. That's why I pointed out how it came across for a neutral observer. I think the most useful direction of this thread right now is what @bedjy asked for; advice from strong Sandeep players on how to actually beat him! Unfortunately I cannot help here, but hope someone else can. Otherwise we'll all see Aaron's conclusions come July! 🙂

[WWHSD]

33 minutes ago, bedjy said:

Well, I'd like to have some advice from Sandeep players about what to do to counter a Sandeep crew ? What do they would like to avoid ?

Threads on that pop up fairly frequently. A little digging on the forum should turn something up.  Here's a recent one from over on the Neverborn subforum.

There's not a silver bullet to beating Sandeep. There's not a model that you can put in your crew that will be Sandeep's kryptonite. That's going to probably be the case with any master that's strong competitively. 

A lot of the advice for beating Sandeep is universal advice.

- Be aware of what abilities need LoS. Blocking LoS is sometimes the easiest way to work around something.
- Put pressure on his resources. Without cards and stones to spend, Sandeep's options become limited.
- Make him use his Beacon abilities and AP reactively instead of being able to use them to score or attack with. If a Mage is using the place to get out of engagement, an immobile Banasuva isn't using it to get into melee range or a scheme runner isn't using it to get in position to score. 

[raderk]

We didnt ganged up, we had a disagreement with him. But lets keep to the topic.

Is Myranda with IE fair thing? What sandeep need is cards to cheat his TNs. He need some for beacon and more for summoning. So first turn he can sacrifice Myranda, get free activation, get Tiger (which is very good model for that SS cost) and 4 cards. I know that we have better card drawing engines out there (cough cough Nicodem) but still, its 1 ss for four cards. You usually spend 1ss to get two cards then discard two. Is this something that should exists in the game or is it just an exploit making the biggest weakness of sandeep less meaningful? But theres more. His cheap Mages can deal a lot of damage, with that positioning from sandeeps 0 (bang furious casting!) or just shoot. That attack being a projectile should be negated a bit by cover? Not on Sandeeps watch, with the + giving Gamin. Maybe you could try kill Sandeep and stop his trickery right there? Gl killing master with high cache, 12 Wounds, ItW and Arcane shield. Killing mages? Thats 7 wd's counting reduction (unless that mage hasnt activated this turn). Possible but suddenly all you did is killing 5ss model. Kill two of them, great, still not that many resources taken from sandeep and he can counterattack.

Ok this game is not about killing stuff right? Too bad with summoned gamins (free ap) and free interacts (dont mind me on trigger) and also activations he can outperforms top crew. There is not a single thing that sandeep is doing at medicore level. His excellent or good in all ranges. Comparing to other top masters (collodi, huge dmg output, a lot of activations, can be focused and taken down; Pandora - huge dmg potential, very threating to enemy, one of the hardest masters to kill, weak at scheming; shenlong - also good at everything, but losing in the activations department). Nico is different case - he has weaknesses but his so strong in his main thing and his drawing mechanics puts him to god tier with sandeep.

[raderk]

WHSD why are you using immobile banasuva? Combine her non cheating and have fun with opponent being drained from cards (bonus points for keeping her in range of + gamin but thats hard).

[WWHSD]

2 minutes ago, raderk said:

WHSD why are you using immobile banasuva? Combine her non cheating and have fun with opponent being drained from cards (bonus points for keeping her in range of + gamin but thats hard).

Which upgrade I use depends on the game. Getting Banasuva with either a 3 inch engagement range  or an ability that forces your opponent to discard to interact can be great in the right pools. I've found that dropping a Ht3 50mm model that can't be pushed or lured out in front to be handy. It allows other models to close the distance against an opponent running something like Rotten Belles. He can also provide a wall that I can put models behind and slightly to the side, my models can make ranged attacks but are protected from charges. 

[raderk]

I really wish I had so many options in my crews.

[WWHSD]

6 minutes ago, raderk said:

I really wish I had so many options in my crews.

Collodi's whole "which of my opponent's actions do I want to use this turn" shtick seems like it should provide a lot of options.  

[raderk]

I need 4 succesful hits with different trigger to block 2 enemy models, possible but not so strong compared to sandeep i guess. And worst thing is hes very vurneable to condition removal. Also he cant lock down henchman since his triggers are after damaging. Its huge, it can win games, I love it. But it has counterplay. Sandeep? Wheres sandeeps counterplay. Drain him? With sage and reservoir he has 8 cards compared to your 6. Stones? he has 4 stones in his cache, so easy to jump up to seven. No master in this game has 5 cache if I remember correctly. Blocking LoS? Apart of Lilith i dont see a method of doing this, and stil sandeep 0 can place him 6 inches away to regain that LoS.

Edited April 10, 2018 by raderk

[Rillan]

1 minute ago, raderk said:

I need 4 succesful hits with different trigger to block 2 enemy models, possible but not so strong compared to sandeep i guess. And worst thing is hes very vurneable to condition removal. Also he cant lock down henchman since his triggers are after damaging. Its huge, it can win games, I love it. But it has counterplay. Sandeep? Wheres sandeeps counterplay. Drain him? With sage and reservoir he has 8 cards compared to your 6. Stones? he has 4 cards in his cache, so easy to jump up to seven. No master in this game has 5 cache if I remember correctly. Blocking LoS? Apart of Lilith i dont see a method of doing this, and stil sandeep can place him 6 inches away to regain that LoS.

It u complain about Collodi i dont know what to say about others casters like Sonnia, Colette, Kaeris.... All those 3 has bigger weaknesses than Collodi and are way restricted in options😪 and compared to Collodi and Sandeep, Jack Daw and others those 3 have  Attack...

No words...  

Huh, as far as it goes as mentioned Moderator this theme runs circles. It should be closed. 

[raderk]

Sonnia has blasts and Ca 9. Kaeris and Colette are subpar masters with weaker attacks. I dont complain about collodi, too bad you missed the point where i said its huge and it wins games. Its one of the best attacks in the whole game. But it has counterplay. You see the difference?

[tmod]

27 minutes ago, raderk said:

We didnt ganged up, we had a disagreement with him. But lets keep to the topic.

Is Myranda with IE fair thing? What sandeep need is cards to cheat his TNs. He need some for beacon and more for summoning. So first turn he can sacrifice Myranda, get free activation, get Tiger (which is very good model for that SS cost) and 4 cards. I know that we have better card drawing engines out there (cough cough Nicodem) but still, its 1 ss for four cards. You usually spend 1ss to get two cards then discard two. Is this something that should exists in the game or is it just an exploit making the biggest weakness of sandeep less meaningful? But theres more. His cheap Mages can deal a lot of damage, with that positioning from sandeeps 0 (bang furious casting!) or just shoot. That attack being a projectile should be negated a bit by cover? Not on Sandeeps watch, with the + giving Gamin. Maybe you could try kill Sandeep and stop his trickery right there? Gl killing master with high cache, 12 Wounds, ItW and Arcane shield. Killing mages? Thats 7 wd's counting reduction (unless that mage hasnt activated this turn). Possible but suddenly all you did is killing 5ss model. Kill two of them, great, still not that many resources taken from sandeep and he can counterattack.

Ok this game is not about killing stuff right? Too bad with summoned gamins (free ap) and free interacts (dont mind me on trigger) and also activations he can outperforms top crew. There is not a single thing that sandeep is doing at medicore level. His excellent or good in all ranges. Comparing to other top masters (collodi, huge dmg output, a lot of activations, can be focused and taken down; Pandora - huge dmg potential, very threating to enemy, one of the hardest masters to kill, weak at scheming; shenlong - also good at everything, but losing in the activations department). Nico is different case - he has weaknesses but his so strong in his main thing and his drawing mechanics puts him to god tier with sandeep.

Can't split up properly due to being on cell phone, so please bear with me... 😉

I agree on the stay on topic bit, you're more than welcome to contact me by pm if you want me to elaborate what I have issue with in the communication. Of nothing else it could help avoid misunderstandings in the future! 🙂

On the Myranda + IE thing I kinda agree. This particular trick has been with us from the start, and is somewhat balanced by costing many points and the summoned beast not getting upgrades. Still it reduces Myranda to a ridiculous role, and it is very strong. All the faction is balanced around this, so I think it's hard to remove without hurting the whole faction. IE could probably cost 2 stones, but otherwise I'd prefer Myranda to get a buff so it'd be less of an auto-choice to sacrifice for cards. If this is indeed the trick that pushes Sandeep over the top, then the least intrusive solution is to nerf Sandeep more directly. Tldr: is it fair? No, not really, but it's been around since the start of M2e, and should probably stay. Many things in this game are unfair, that in and of itself is not reason for a nerf. The easiest, but least elegant solution, would be to errata Myrands so she couldn't be taken by Sandeep...

Personally I think the issue with Sandeep is the following: it's basically been taken for granted that with the scheme/strat structure of the game the specialist will always outperform the generalist. To compensate Sandeep got too much flexibility and is a little too strong in too many aspects of the game. Fixing this is going to be hard, but I think they either have to reimagine him as more of a specialist, or do many small changes to tone down each aspect slightly while also buff the perceived weaker masters in Arcanists. In that way Sandeep should be a considerstion in all games, but never (or almost never) outright stronger than everyone else. He'd still likely be a strong master, as it's easier to learn just one master than all of them, but less dominating. He could also probably use at least one serious weakness, mainly to strengthen the perception of counterplay. Even of a master is not strictly superior, the perception of invincibility is almost as bad as the real thing in my opinion...

[raderk]

Hes whole theme is being a generalist. You cant make him a specialist now, you would have to write him all over again. The thing is he does all generalist things too good. He can attack without a projectile for a nice range and good dmg (with a great trigger). He is the tankiest master in faction probably or on par with. He is the best summoner in his faction. he supports his crew on par with the best supporter. So instead of jack of all trades hes queen/king of all trades.

Is whole faction based around IE Myranda? If so is IE Myranda seeing table every game there is (on comptetive level of course).
If yes thanks for agreeing with me
If not, well youre wrong i suppose?

is it healthy to have whole faction designed about one model combo? Could you show me proof of IEMyranda being the main factor in balancing Arcanists? For what i see her shes just an exploit which makes AR stronger. It was strong with other master, became ridiculus with Sandeep.

[WWHSD]

5 minutes ago, raderk said:

I need 4 succesful hits with different trigger to block 2 enemy models, possible but not so strong compared to sandeep i guess. And worst thing is hes very vurneable to condition removal. Also he cant lock down henchman since his triggers are after damaging. Its huge, it can win games, I love it. But it has counterplay. Sandeep? Wheres sandeeps counterplay. Drain him? With sage and reservoir he has 8 cards compared to your 6. Stones? he has 4 cards in his cache, so easy to jump up to seven. No master in this game has 5 cache if I remember correctly. Blocking LoS? Apart of Lilith i dont see a method of doing this, and stil sandeep can place him 6 inches away to regain that LoS.

Why do you need to completely lock down a model with Collodi? Collodi can keep all three of the mages from Furious Casting  in one turn just by using his built in trigger. He can cause some serious damage if he gets either of his obey triggers off.   

If Sandeep is getting cards from Unaligned Sage then he’s spending one AP each round to do it and taking a Wd every time he draws a card. If you’ve got something that can cause a bunch of BS flips you can put him in a situation where he’s burning cards or suffering consequences.

You don’t need to be dropping terrain markers with Lilith to block LoS. All crews have the ability to bring models that can reposition enemy models or just take models that can block LoS between enemy models with their bases.

A Sandeep crew is usually going to made made up of a lot of models with 40mm and 50mm bases. I’ve found that if I’m not careful my models can easily get in each other’s way. They block each other’s options for pushes, block charge lanes, cost extra inches of movement to walk around and even end up blocking LoS for attacks and friendly abilities that need it. Try and make the game take place in a part of the table with some natural bottlenecks to take advantage of the large bases in the crew.

Anything that puts Ca actions on negative flips is going to get a lot of use against a Sandeep crew. 

If Beacon actions are being used to react to a situation you created then you may have made Sandeep burn a resource he had been planning on using. From your perspective it may look like using Sandeep's place action via Beacon to get a model out of trouble didn’t do much, but the Sandeep player could have very well been planning to use that Beacon ability or the card they cheated for it somewhere else. I know I typically have a planned use for 2-3 of the Beacon actions at the start of every turn. I’d assume that most people do when they are playing Sandeep. 

 

[TeddyBear]

8 minutes ago, raderk said:

Hes whole theme is being a generalist. You cant make him a specialist now, you would have to write him all over again. The thing is he does all generalist things too good. He can attack without a projectile for a nice range and good dmg (with a great trigger). He is the tankiest master in faction probably or on par with. He is the best summoner in his faction. he supports his crew on par with the best supporter. So instead of jack of all trades hes queen/king of all trades.

Is whole faction based around IE Myranda? If so is IE Myranda seeing table every game there is (on comptetive level of course).
If yes thanks for agreeing with me
If not, well youre wrong i suppose?

is it healthy to have whole faction designed about one model combo? Could you show me proof of IEMyranda being the main factor in balancing Arcanists? For what i see her shes just an exploit which makes AR stronger. It was strong with other master, became ridiculus with Sandeep.

as i wrote in nb section, with lilith you shoulden't have particolar problem to kill her in first turn with tangle shadow.. maybe with tannen bonus that's my 2 cents

[raderk]

Collodi attacks mages. He hit two, third he had to cheat. So he lost one card and attacked all three mages. Too bad that all of the mages discarded a card and trigger doesnt work.

Yeah its stupid collodi would attack one mage to lock him and then burn the shield on another. Great job, i used whole master activation to burn enemy 2 cards and make one 5ss model slow. Thats a lot i guess?

[raderk]

2 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

as i wrote in nb faction, with lilith you shoulden't have particolar problem to kill her in first turn with tangle shadow.. maybe with tannen bonus that's my 2 cents

You mean maing two walks towards her burning a stone for a suit and trying my luck with Ca 5 against Wp 6? Is this trolling or what? And how is easy killing 7Df model which has 8 Wds and can use Soulstones?

[Rillan]

It starts to look more personal than balance problem. And finally we got it Collodi isn't Sandeep. No point in further discussion. Unless we all should start whining that our lovely masters can't do something 

[raderk]

Sandeep is a queen/king of all trades doing everything and then some with no real weakness. Every other master in this game has some counterplay, sandeep is an exception. So is he overpowered or not?

[WWHSD]

15 minutes ago, tmod said:

Personally I think the issue with Sandeep is the following: it's basically been taken for granted that with the scheme/strat structure of the game the specialist will always outperform the generalist. To compensate Sandeep got too much flexibility and is a little too strong in too many aspects of the game. Fixing this is going to be hard, but I think they either have to reimagine him as more of a specialist, or do many small changes to tone down each aspect slightly while also buff the perceived weaker masters in Arcanists. In that way Sandeep should be a considerstion in all games, but never (or almost never) outright stronger than everyone else. He'd still likely be a strong master, as it's easier to learn just one master than all of them, but less dominating. He could also probably use at least one serious weakness, mainly to strengthen the perception of counterplay. Even of a master is not strictly superior, the perception of invincibility is almost as bad as the real thing in my opinion...

I agree that the structure of Malifaux is problematic for generalists. If Malifaux tournaments were fixed master or something where you submit two army lists for the tournament I think that a weaker generalist would have a role.

As it is, I think that weaker generalists only really have a niche with newer players that haven't figured out how to effectively build a crew for the strat scheme pools, don't know what they should expect from each faction, or have a limited number of games under their belt. In those cases playing with a master that isn't the right choice but isn't the worst choice and that they are familiar with can win out over bringing a better specialist. I'm not sure that relegating a master to that role is something that really needs doing. 

[TeddyBear]

2 minutes ago, raderk said:

You mean maing two walks towards her burning a stone for a suit and trying my luck with Ca 5 against Wp 6? Is this trolling or what? And how is easy killing 7Df model which has 8 Wds and can use Soulstones?

with tannen bonus on your masks cards. yes, she have 7df but you start from 7 with one + on attack and damage flips... mine is only an advice, no trolling. I'm lucky enough to have tried much masters in this game, all have advantages and disavantages, arcanists are no different.

[raderk]

Lets say that sandeep player has 12 to defend himself. Wp 18 after the duel. With +2 to the masks i need 11 of masks or higher. Thats 4 cards from the 54 cards deck. Can it work? Yes. Can it work in majority of games? No. And to kill Myranda i need two more attacks, which mean i need to start my activation 12 inches from her. Possible with all that graves and changeling pushes but very resource consuming. And sandeep has all the time in the world to counterplay me doing this.

[TeddyBear]

2 minutes ago, raderk said:

Lets say that sandeep player has 12 to defend himself. Wp 18 after the duel. With +2 to the masks i need 11 of masks or higher. Thats 4 cards from the 54 cards deck. Can it work? Yes. Can it work in majority of games? No. And to kill Myranda i need two more attacks, which mean i need to start my activation 12 inches from her. Possible with all that graves and changeling pushes but very resource consuming. And sandeep has all the time in the world to counterplay me doing this.

You're right. Your logic can't be faulted. But you could chose to increase your drawing chance with many many methods, much more then arcanists.. for example primordial magic, or chose to add anna to your crew..also for dening pushes from sandeep crew (for example)

[raderk]

I can push lilith with changeling and graves. Then i kill myranda. Then mages sandeep and banasuva kill lilith (shes tanky but with that many opponents she dies). I think its not worthy trade. There is little to none counterplay against Myranda, you just have to endure it and let sandeep get the cards he needs, simple as that. Even if you kill her 4 cards will still go to the sandeeps hand.