I think it's time to do something with Sandeep...

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, raderk said:

Its not winning tournaments alone, we have a lot of tournaments won by Pandora, Collodi or Zipp. Yet still, playing against them feels more or less fair, even if collodi or zipp deserves a nerf, we can still wait for wyrd to take action, since its not like at the beggining you feel youre at disadventage as it is with sandeep. Its general consenus here in Poland where we take this game really comptetivly and doing our best to max out everything we can. Its not only my opinion, we have talked about it a lot and going to forum to complain was the best option we choose.

I think it's odd that Sandeep is the negative play experience and not any of the other masters you've named off.

Pandora crews dish out a lot of almost unavoidable damage and take away your ability to choose your activation order. Collodi steals your AP and uses it against you. Zipp just pretty much ignores whatever defensive tech you have and puts your models in useless spots while being a huge pain to pin down himself. He'll probably have Fingers with him in any pool that requires interacting which can be extremely frustrating.  

[necroon]

21 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

It also requires LoS to Sandeep. That restriction can be removed for Academics if Sandeep takes a particular upgrade. The place effect requires a 6 or greater or masks (and can't be used by models that aren't either minions or Academics). The ability that allows an interact requires an unsuited 6 or higher to use but requires a tome to interact while engaged or a mask to get the push.  

Requiring LOS is something all summoners work with. Getting a push with a 6+ but needing a mask to place a scheme marker if engaged at the end of said push is hardly a claim of balance. 

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The -1 reduction in stat seems appropriate given that it is an extremely limited set of abilities that can be borrowed that all have a Ca value of 6. Ca5 is a fairly standard attack stat on minions and a lowish stat for models of a higher station. Attack stats at 4 on minions was more common in the early books but now it seems to be the exception.  

I disagree that -1 CA to do some of the best things  in Malifaux is fair. 

 

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The modifications that the summoned models have are their limitation. They all have an advantage and disadvantage and limit the number of models that Sandeep can summon.

The "cons" of the summons are not limitations. They are vastly inferior to what you are getting for them: a powerful thing you chose and an activation. 
 

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I don't see how Beacon really makes planning for you own actions any more complex than it would be against a crew that has obeys, pushes, and other abilities that allow enemy models to things out of activation or force your models to do things.

Because Obey is during one model's activation. 

 

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I'm not sure that I'd call Arcane Shield, Impossible to Wound, and a suited healing trigger on his push "an incredible suite of defensive abilities".   

I would call having damage reduced to a minimum of 0, a minus on all damage flips, not being able to have damage cheated on you, a decent WD stat, not being DF 4, and a heal quite incredible indeed.
 

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Having to pitch a card for one ability every turn isn't a big deal but you've got Mages that want to pitch cards to Furious Cast or to use Temporary Shield and Sandeep wants to pitch one for his extra AP. That's probably about 2-3 cards every turn that are going to be discarded. That's a big chunk of your control hand each turn. Go up against a crew that applies some pressure to your hand and it doesn't take much before you are having to decide between the 4th AP for Sandeep, being able to have a model Beacon his 6 inch place, or just eating the effect of a failed horror duel.

This still gives you amazing things you can do with low cards. You are making a choice when you have good cards and getting a good use out of cards that would otherwise be sapped for discard effects by your opponent or defensive stance or something. 

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Pitching a low card is worse than ending the turn with it in hand. If you end the turn with it in hand then you have just improved your deck for the following turn. That's really a big advantage for crews with a lot of card draw. Sure, they are more likely to have good cards to cheat with but all of the low cards they end the turn with are out of the game for the next turn.   Their hand next round will be better and so will the cards they top deck. 

Having options is always superior to not having them

 

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There are plenty of other masters that have things that are a pain for an opponent to have to keep in mind. Yan Lo with his Chi Generation and upgrade cycling is a nightmare. Parker and McCabe both have a lot of stuff going on with all the stuff they do with upgrades. Collodi has all sorts of crazy shenanigans going on. Hell,  I just believe that whatever ridiculous crap a Viks player says is happening is correct because there are so many shared buffs and effects that make models do things outside  of their own activation. 

And everything they do they do with conditions or upgrades for tracking. Nobody needs to break out the scrap paper to figure out what is happening turn over turn. 

[raderk]

Oh but those other masters I named are quite OP indeed and thats coming from Collodi player. The things is only Sandeep and Nico are gamebreaking OP right now.

Sorry to disapoint you necron but sandeep reduces dmg dealt to him to 0, not 1. Also he has higher Wd pool than any NB master for example (equal to Titania).

[WWHSD]

21 minutes ago, necroon said:

Requiring LOS is something all summoners work with. Getting a push with a 6+ but needing a mask to place a scheme marker if engaged at the end of said push is hardly a claim of balance. 

It seemed like you were implying that models can use Beacon as long as they were within range of Sandeep. It also requires that the model have LoS. 

You get the interact without a suit. If you use the mask trigger then you can push 3 inches before the interact on a mask but if you are engaged after the push you wouldn't be able to drop a scheme marker.  The tome trigger allows you do interact while engaged. The ability doesn't require a suit but the two more powerful effects do.

 

 

21 minutes ago, necroon said:

I disagree that -1 CA to do some of the best things  in Malifaux is fair. 

The amount of the reduction is irrelevant. It's the final Ca value that matters. Ca 5 isn't a good stat, it's an average stat. The models that borrow Asura Rotten's attacks are getting Ml 6 (and potentially higher).  Sandeep's Ca values are on the low side for a master. Ca7 is common.  

[necroon]

21 minutes ago, raderk said:

Sorry to disapoint you necron but sandeep reduces dmg dealt to him to 0, not 1. Also he has higher Wd pool than any NB master for example (equal to Titania).

Yeah I was editing that back. My brain was yelling "Reduces below 1" and my fingers were trying to type something different. I know full well how much that min 0 hurts when combined with armor +1 from a steamfitter, the ability to tell off severes, and impossible to wound 😅

 

12 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

You get the interact without a suit. If you use the mask trigger then you can push 3 inches before the interact on a mask but if you are engaged after the push you wouldn't be able to drop a scheme marker.  The tome trigger allows you do interact while engaged. The ability doesn't require a suit but the two more powerful effects do.

That's all powerful. Placing scheme markers: powerful. Doing it while engaged: Powerful. Pushing: owerful. 

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The amount of the reduction is irrelevant. It's the final Ca value that matters. Ca 5 isn't a good stat, it's an average stat. The models that borrow Asura Rotten's attacks are getting Ml 6 (and potentially higher).  Sandeep's Ca values are on the low side for a master. Ca7 is common.  

CA7 is high - not common. Sure some things are higher but CA 7 is not a norm for actions. Aside from the attack action the CAs only matter in that you need 6's to do a really strong thing and in some cases a suit makes that strong thing stronger. Asura Rotten is probably not the best aiming point for a validation of balance.

[WWHSD]

7 minutes ago, necroon said:

CA7 is high - not common. Sure some things are higher but CA 7 is not a norm for actions. Aside from the attack action the CAs only matter in that you need 6's to do a really strong thing and in some cases a suit makes that strong thing stronger. Asura Rotten is probably not the best aiming point for a validation of balance.

At least in the Arcanist faction, Ca 6 is a low Ca stat for a master. I'm not sure how it breaks down in other factions. Other than Sandeep, it looks like there is a single Ca action on Rasputina's card  that isn't at least a 7. 

Colette - Ca7
Ironsides - Ca7
Kaeris - Ca7
Marcus - Ca 7
Mei Feng - Ca 7
Ramos - Ca 7/8
Rasputina - Ca7 (she has a 0 action ability at Ca5)
Sandeep - Ca 6

[raderk]

you know that theres much more to action than just its vale?

[cbtb11235813]

2 minutes ago, raderk said:

you know that theres much more to action than just its vale?

You said it was uncommon. In the Arcanist faction, he just proved that CA6 is uncommonly low for a master

[raderk]

I did? Show me where

[necroon]

27 minutes ago, cbtb11235813 said:

You said it was uncommon. In the Arcanist faction, he just proved that CA6 is uncommonly low for a master

No I said it was uncommon not @radak23. Pile on me - Every Arcanist master that isn't Sandeep rocking a 7 does very little to quell any logical or reasonable argument. Some of these are limited by other factors or not opposed duels.

32 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

At least in the Arcanist faction, Ca 6 is a low Ca stat for a master. I'm not sure how it breaks down in other factions. Other than Sandeep, it looks like there is a single Ca action on Rasputina's card  that isn't at least a 7. 

Colette - Ca7
Ironsides - Ca7
Kaeris - Ca7
Marcus - Ca 7
Mei Feng - Ca 7
Ramos - Ca 7/8
Rasputina - Ca7 (she has a 0 action ability at Ca5)
Sandeep - Ca 6

So I am to take away from this point that.... Sandeep is bad because his CAs are not 7's? Hardly. Aside from his attack action none of these values are opposed and there is little anyone can do to stop them from happening aside from generic suggestions like "Try and drain their hand" which is a basic part of playing Malifaux, anyways.

Beyond correcting me for the sake of accuracy please explain what exactly I am supposed to take away from this? That his Beacon is not powerful because one action it permits is an opposed duel and the rest aren't so nobody can really stop you from those? That Sandeep himself is hampered by being a 4 AP Master that lets the crew within 12" and LOS make use of places and pushes and scheme marker placing? That him summoning a plus flip bubble that is also an activation that aren't limited by key-words or stations is somehow undermined by Sandeep himself  needing a 5+ for his actions and only having a CA6 on his non-projectile action CA action with the possibility of a [+] damage flip trigger? I'm just not seeing how any of this actually hinders you it only could have gone from Worse to Even Worse. 

[WWHSD]

 

2 minutes ago, necroon said:

So I am to take away from this point that.... Sandeep is bad because his CAs are not 7's? Hardly. Aside from his attack action none of these values are opposed and there is little anyone can do to stop them from happening aside from generic suggestions like "Try and drain their hand" which is a basic part of playing Malifaux, anyways.

No. The context of Ca6 being a low Ca stat for a master was in regards to Beacon and whether -1 Ca was appropriate. Because Beacon only needs to account for 4 actions ever being borrowed it doesn't need to have as large a reduction as something that is more open ended like the ability of the Malifaux Child.

Putting the Beacon abilities at Ca 5 means that a Moderate card or better is required for any of the Beacon abilities except for Arcane Storm. Not having a TN for Arcane Storm isn't a problem since it's the only ability that has an opposed duel that is unlikely to be used against friendly models that relent. An attack stat of 5 is pretty much the standard attack for minions and Enforcers and Henchmen for whom attacks are not their primary thing. 

[raderk]

actually arcane storm is a very good attack for a minion with that nonprojectile range and nice trigger. I'd say more its better than any attack action of minions which cost 5 or less

[necroon]

27 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

 

No. The context of Ca6 being a low Ca stat for a master was in regards to Beacon and whether -1 Ca was appropriate. Because Beacon only needs to account for 4 actions ever being borrowed it doesn't need to have as large a reduction as something that is more open ended like the ability of the Malifaux Child.

Putting the Beacon abilities at Ca 5 means that a Moderate card or better is required for any of the Beacon abilities except for Arcane Storm. Not having a TN for Arcane Storm isn't a problem since it's the only ability that has an opposed duel that is unlikely to be used against friendly models that relent. An attack stat of 5 is pretty much the standard attack for minions and Enforcers and Henchmen for whom attacks are not their primary thing. 

You are drastically underpricing what Beacon borrows. It doesn't matter how many actions are available when the ones that are are:

 - A (0) 6" place  (academics and minions only)

 - A push with a heal trigger

 - A non  10" 2/4/5 

 - A (0) interact that has a trigger for being used engaged and another one for pushing before the interact. 

Beacon does not have a balanced restriction on it's usage. -1 CA means you need a 6+ to do them or an opposed flip with you using a stat 5 (in the case of Arcane Storm): that's what it means and aside from Arcane Storm the actual CA value is totally meaningless. If your so against the -1 beacon penalty being increased fine: let's just up all the TNs by 1 or 2 and call it a day. 

All of the those are amazingly powerful utility options. It only being those 4 is absolutely no reason to not balance it accordingly; Doppleganger and Changelings and Anything with Magical Extension can't even hope to use a 6to push a friendly model 6" and then heal  2 WDs! Places, pushes, heals, non-randomizing cover ignoring CA actions, and scheme marker placement are all incredibly powerful utility tech and the kind of things that win games. If all he did was that it would be fine but it's not. He summons (a whole other can of issues), does all the beacon things himself, is way to beefy (I'm sorry but Arcane Shield and Impossible to wound with his stat line and a self heal is hardly not tanky).... He's basically fast every turn by means of an out of activation AP and Arcane Storm isn't the greatest damage wise but it's far from being a bad attack. 

[WWHSD]

1 hour ago, raderk said:

you know that theres much more to action than just its vale?

He's got 4 useful actions that one model a turn can use assuming they have a high enough card, have LoS to Sandeep, are close enough to him (and in the case of the place ability have the right characteristics). None of those actions are so good that anyone would be surprised to see them show up on a minion at Ca5. Beacon is a good ability because it lets the crew share a pool of what ends up being minion level abilities and not because any of the abilities are amazing by themselves.  

[raderk]

Dude are you saying to me that being 12'' to sandeep (very tanky master who can be in the middle anyway) is close? I know youre an sandeep player but at this point its just trolling man

[WWHSD]

2 minutes ago, necroon said:

Beacon does not have a balanced restriction on it's usage. -1 CA means you need a 6+ to do them or an opposed flip with you using a stat 5 (in the case of Arcane Storm): that's what it means and aside from Arcane Storm the actual CA value is totally meaningless. If your so against the -1 beacon penalty being increased fine: let's just up all the TNs by 1 or 2 and call it a day. 

Changing the TN impacts Sandeep being able to use his own actions as well. Needing a moderate card for a TN card seems like a logical break point. People that are bitching about Beacon for the actions that use simple duels and the push against relenting targets would still be bitching about it if it needed a 7+ and may still be if it needed an 8+.  

An attack that has less than a 5 in it's attack stat is a bad attack. At Ca4 or Ca3 Arcane Storm would stop being a very useful action to borrow.

[raderk]

But thats the point. To nerf Sandeep so he will not be as strong as he is now

[necroon]

13 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

None of those actions are so good that anyone would be surprised to see them show up on a minion at Ca5. 

What is the soul stone cost of the minion? What else does the Minion do? What TN? Suit baked in? Suit required? There is a lot of other things to consider then "Station" and "CA Value". 

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

People that are bitching about Beacon for the actions that use simple duels and the push against relenting targets would still be bitching about it if it needed a 7+ and may still be if it needed an 8+.  

Not sure the language is necessary here, mate, but I certainly would not be were that the case as my entire point was that I believed the -1 CA Penalty is insufficient. -2 is a good step and has precedent. -2 and a suit requirement or something about triggers is even better.

[raderk]

And Ca 4 10 nonprojecile (ignoring cover, shooting from engagement and non randomizing) 2/4/5 with possible + to the damage flip is still very strong for a cheap minion

[WWHSD]

8 minutes ago, raderk said:

Dude are you saying to me that being 12'' to sandeep (very tanky master who can be in the middle anyway) is close? I know youre an sandeep player but at this point its just trolling man

I wrote "close enough" which isn't the same as  considering two models 12 inches apart to be close to each other. If I've got Sandeep 12 inches away from a model, it's not likely to be able to use abilities through Beacon due to LoS being blocked.

[raderk]

2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

I wrote "close enough" which isn't the same as  considering two models 12 inches apart to be close to each other. If I've got Sandeep 12 inches away from a model, it's not likely to be able to use abilities through Beacon due to LoS being blocked. 

I dont get it, you have trouble having your sandeep in LoS with your crew?

[so_diogenes]

1 minute ago, raderk said:

I dont get it, you have trouble having your sandeep in LoS with your crew?

He's saying if a table is sufficiently covered with terrain, it is very unlikely that there is not blocking terrain over a 12" line of sight.

[raderk]

Well comparing other mimicing actions their range is wayyy shorter. Doppelganger 8, changelings 3 and aura. Mfo child isnt limited to LoS but its totem so kinda different category (even so, that things are not masters and not AR so comparison is hard to make). But still 12'' is huge and i believe its not that hard being able to do those actions especially that sandeep isnt bound to be behind everythinh\g

[raderk]

So basicly hes complaining that sandeeps range is too great to the point that LoS becomes an issue. Interesting claim.

[necroon]

1 minute ago, so_diogenes said:

He's saying if a table is sufficiently covered with terrain, it is very unlikely that there is not blocking terrain over a 12" line of sight.

I find that 12" and LOS of a HT 2 Model is pretty generous especially when Sandeep can place. This is more of a... mechanical template and commonality then a limiting factor by near any means.