M2E Ramos

[admiralvorkraft]

The Soulstone Miner can mill stones - the steamfitter usually has an extra attack to throw at it which gets me two (positives to df, dmg prevention). Ramos may well stone for a tome turn one, and the miner can (2) dig a stone and then spend it to prevent damage. 4 stones on turn one gets me ahead of the game even if my opponent isn't spending them.

Between the miner and Ramos I can keep up for a couple turns if I need to, and if my opponent isn't stoning then I probably come up even further ahead on the board.

[WWHSD]

14 minutes ago, admiralvorkraft said:

The Soulstone Miner can mill stones - the steamfitter usually has an extra attack to throw at it which gets me two (positives to df, dmg prevention). Ramos may well stone for a tome turn one, and the miner can (2) dig a stone and then spend it to prevent damage. 4 stones on turn one gets me ahead of the game even if my opponent isn't spending them.

Between the miner and Ramos I can keep up for a couple turns if I need to, and if my opponent isn't stoning then I probably come up even further ahead on the board.

Having the Soulstone Miner damage itself for a Stone and then spend a stone to prevent the damage is a great idea. 

The thing I’m not certain about is whether or not it still counts as “suffering damage” if all of the damage is prevented. The wording of the Miner’s ability makes it seem like it only produces a Soulstone if the Miner takes damage from it.

[azgadil]

3 hours ago, admiralvorkraft said:

The Soulstone Miner can mill stones - the steamfitter usually has an extra attack to throw at it which gets me two (positives to df, dmg prevention). Ramos may well stone for a tome turn one, and the miner can (2) dig a stone and then spend it to prevent damage. 4 stones on turn one gets me ahead of the game even if my opponent isn't spending them.

Between the miner and Ramos I can keep up for a couple turns if I need to, and if my opponent isn't stoning then I probably come up even further ahead on the board.

Timing will matter here.

And the card says after being damaged gain the stone - meaning the chance to prevent has passed. Then the miner is damaged and gains a stone. 

Now if there is a stone already in the pool this is okay. 

 

[Franchute]

3 hours ago, WWHSD said:

Having the Soulstone Miner damage itself for a Stone and then spend a stone to prevent the damage is a great idea. 

The thing I’m not certain about is whether or not it still counts as “suffering damage” if all of the damage is prevented. The wording of the Miner’s ability makes it seem like it only produces a Soulstone if the Miner takes damage from it.

I think you are correct. If the 2 damages from Mine Soulstone are prevented, then you can't get the soulstone back with Mine Soulstone because no damage was suffered from Mine Soulstone.

[admiralvorkraft]

So I disagree, here's why.

So in the breakout box on 25 is the only place I find the term "suffer" used in the game rules. There is does say that soulstones are spent to prevent suffering damage. However on Pg. 47 where it goes into greater detail the phrase is, "After determining how much damage a master or henchman would take but before applying that damage..."

The miner's ability has it suffer two damage which may not be reduced. Since that means we can ignore the armor then according to the Damage and Wounds section on 46 we have a final damage of 2. At this point we have satisfied the game-state requirements of the first sentence in the ability, yes? So the damage has now been inflicted on the model.

Now before we apply the damage we stone. If we stone away the damage then the damage is not applied (as per 47) and presumably the model is then still in play satisfying the last condition of the Mine Soulstone action.

In the context of a trigger with the "after damaging" call out we know that the action would not work if damage wasn't dealt. We also know that it wouldn't work if it were a passive ability triggering off of the model taking damage. But "suffer" isn't a clearly defined game term in this context.

Furthermore there are any number of actions in the game that specify, "may not be reduced or prevented." Lacking that clear phrasing I think it's safe to assume that the Soulstone Miner's action can function in full even with soulstone use.

Lastly, if it works as you contend, then preventing even a single point of damage would mean the soulstone isn't generated because you then haven't applied 2 damage to the model despite inflicting 2 damage in the first place. That would seem to undermine comparisons to "after damaging" effects elsewhere in the game.

I could be wrong of course. Clearly defined game terms are the top of my M3E wish list. Things like "inflict" and "suffer" need to be clearly defined and consistently used throughout the core book and cards.

[azgadil]

You’ve convinced me. 

[admiralvorkraft]

2 hours ago, azgadil said:

You’ve convinced me. 

Phew, otherwise I'd have some apologizing to do :-)

[BFOmega]

I'm sorry, but no. The wording is "If it is still in play after suffering this damage...". It never suffered the damage, so it doesn't get the stone. I could even see an argument that even reducing one of it would make it not work, though I think that is more a product of it being an old model. Those aren't situations that would have mattered then, because there was no reason to spend a SS to get a soulstone, and Hoffman couldn't make Armor unignorable.

Any other interpretation is contrary to how any other ability that occurs after damage behaves. Reading it otherwise is just trying to manipulate the rules.

[admiralvorkraft]

As I said in my argument, "suffered" is not a clearly defined or consistently used game term. It should be, but it isn't. I think there is a preponderance of evidence that it works the way I'm arguing; that damage prevented doesn't mean it was never suffered. That being said, if/when M3E drops it should have a glossary of game terms and phrases that are used consistently in the core rules and across all of the cards. Without clear and consistent language I don't think we'll ever agree on this or a number of other corner-case scenarios.

[retnab]

We should probably keep wording and rules discussions in the rules forum, so as to not confuse future newbies.

Anyone been playing Ramos lately? What have your lists been?

[azgadil]

Declared Faction: Arcanists 
Crew Name: Ramos Tournament 2 50ss 
Leader: Ramos - Cache:(3)
   Under Pressure 2ss 
   Arcane Reservoir 2ss 
Brass Arachnid 4ss 
Joss 10ss 
   Open Current 1ss 
Amina Naidu 9ss 
Howard Langston 12ss 
   Imbued Energies 1ss 
Union Steamfitter 6ss 

I typically make one decision - Amina or Johan - Otherwise the crew does not vary much.  

I have played this list at least eight times with good effect. Even choosing it in very bad scheme pools just to play test it. 

My play style varies based on terrain and schemes.  There are some rare times where I only summon twice and play defensive (note: though I have done this I can’t say this is optimal). And other times where I summon every round. Some times summon to simply block a charge lane, others to score in the next turn. One of my favorite all around things to do is drop Arachnids around critical enemy models to slow them down.  

The steam Arachnids are one of the most annoying summons to deal with at 6 Df and Wp.  Just about any time they are the board You are getting value out of your 11  and SS. 

This crew and Ramos in general is very swingy.  (Bad Swing) If you Black Joker your summons attempt it’s typically a tough climb (if not a direct loss).  (Good Swing) If you get off two or three reactives on Joss/Howard in the game you are likely to win. There are times when you don’t draw a big  but Ramos summoning two is quite alright. This list can score with Arachnids and Kill with others.  All around solid. 

Also I know people don’t like Under Pressure at 2SS but I will say this for comparison; read this as 1 SS that occupies two upgrade slots. Plus flips are one of the best abilities in the game. Even your Arachnids at plus flips improves chance to detonate.  

The crew is boring but learning when to summon and how to utilize your Arachnids is a fun Learning experience. 

[admiralvorkraft]

Why Open Current on Joss rather than the more traditional Bleeding Edge Tech?

Not criticizing - I tend to run without BET myself these days. Just curious about your thinking.

[azgadil]

I have run Bleeding Edge Tech and I like it. I didn’t want the post too long so I didn’t branch out.

Swapping Bleeding Edge Tech for Open Current seems great. 

[retnab]

I'm more surprised about the 3ss cache >.> Do you find that's enough for you?

[Franchute]

1 hour ago, retnab said:

I'm more surprised about the 3ss cache >.> Do you find that's enough for you?

I think it is 6 stones. The new app does not include the base cache in these 3 soulstones. Not very convenient...

[Morach]

18 hours ago, retnab said:

We should probably keep wording and rules discussions in the rules forum, so as to not confuse future newbies.

Anyone been playing Ramos lately? What have your lists been?

I mainly play two Arcanist masters (was on a personal Sandeep ban until the recent nerf) - Ramos and Ironsides. I tend to choose Ironsides into any pool that revolves around a central area, and Ramos when I need to moderately scheme and cover the board.

With Ramos I've had success using the following:

Declared Faction: Arcanists  
Leader: Ramos - Cache:(3)
  Field Generator 2ss 
  Arcane Reservoir 2ss 
  Vox Populi 1ss 
Captain 9ss 
  Patron's Blessing 1ss 
  Warding Runes 1ss
Amina Naidu 9ss
  Warding Runes 1ss
3x Oxfordian Trio 15ss (after the cost reduction)
Union Steamfitter 6ss

The steamfitter has been enough to get the summoning engine going on turn 1, and it's a crew that typically lasts to end game due to the amount of slows and pushes included. The spiders run schemes, the mages are there for area denial/control, and Amina can usually keep everyone alive. I've tried running Leviathan Power Core over Field Generator, but it still feels slightly lackluster to me. 

Depending on the scheme pool I may swap out the Captain for Joss. If public demonstration is available then I've swapped out Amina for the Effigy + another minion, such as Willie or a miner.

 

[WWHSD]

2 hours ago, Morach said:

I mainly play two Arcanist masters (was on a personal Sandeep ban until the recent nerf) - Ramos and Ironsides. I tend to choose Ironsides into any pool that revolves around a central area, and Ramos when I need to moderately scheme and cover the board.

With Ramos I've had success using the following:

Declared Faction: Arcanists  
Leader: Ramos - Cache:(3)
  Field Generator 2ss 
  Arcane Reservoir 2ss 
  Vox Populi 1ss 
Captain 9ss 
  Patron's Blessing 1ss 
  Warding Runes 1ss
Amina Naidu 9ss
  Warding Runes 1ss
3x Oxfordian Trio 15ss (after the cost reduction)
Union Steamfitter 6ss

The steamfitter has been enough to get the summoning engine going on turn 1, and it's a crew that typically lasts to end game due to the amount of slows and pushes included. The spiders run schemes, the mages are there for area denial/control, and Amina can usually keep everyone alive. I've tried running Leviathan Power Core over Field Generator, but it still feels slightly lackluster to me. 

Depending on the scheme pool I may swap out the Captain for Joss. If public demonstration is available then I've swapped out Amina for the Effigy + another minion, such as Willie or a miner.

 

If you are going to swap out Amina for the Effigy + something else, try a Medical Automaton. It fits the points well and is a great little model that makes your models annoying to kill and is surprisingly mobile due to its Code Red zero action.

I typically run Bleeding Edge Tech on Joss, but it might be worth trying it on Ramos if you are looking for something to replace Field Generator, especially if you've got the Effigy and Mobile toolkit that can benefit from it instead of just the spiders.  

[Morach]

1 hour ago, WWHSD said:

If you are going to swap out Amina for the Effigy + something else, try a Medical Automaton. It fits the points well and is a great little model that makes your models annoying to kill and is surprisingly mobile due to its Code Red zero action.

I typically run Bleeding Edge Tech on Joss, but it might be worth trying it on Ramos if you are looking for something to replace Field Generator, especially if you've got the Effigy and Mobile toolkit that can benefit from it instead of just the spiders.  

I've had success with the Medical Automaton in Ironsides' crew, but hadn't considered running it with Ramos.

It's an excellent point to try Bleeding Edge Tech on Ramos if I've got the other constructs that can benefit from it. I hadn't considered it, but I'll try it out this week!

[Franchute]

For me, if you take vox populi, the malifaux child is an auto include.

[cbtb11235813]

My most recent list (@retnab you saw this at Origins). Into Thunders Lynch: Ply for Information, Surround Them, Hold Up Their Forces, Search the Ruins, Recover Evidence, Vendetta

Ramos - Cache 5
   -Arcane Reservoir 
   -Vox Populi
   -Leviathan Power Core
Amina Naidu
   -Bleeding Edge Tech
The Captain
   -Patrons Blessing
Envy
   -Imbued Energies
Union Steamfitter
Medical Automaton
Wind Gamin
 

I think I lost this one 8-4 (something like that). Sorta shot myself in the foot by declaring Lynch as my Vendetta. It was a long weekend, and I forgot you can't take a Master as your Vendetta, so I was basically playing for 7 points. My opponent (who played incredibly well) quickly figured out why Amina was in the list, and triple lured her into position and just tore her apart. I learned that day that Lynch & friends are really really good at picking a target or two per turn and erasing them. 
Ramos has been my go to for Ply, since he and Amina can make two things a turn peons, and spiders can gang up on a peon and get lots of easy ply. What I've realized about that though, is that process works great if you are already winning, but it is a hard uphill battle if things don't go your way. Summoned spiders can't ply the turn they are summoned, but can be plied. Also, if they get Ply, they aren't exactly hard to kill, which is the easiest way to remove it. Ramos can certainly do it, but I will likely start using Ironsides for Ply