Mei Feng Kick and trigger

[Erik1978]

So, Mei Feng's Jackhammer kick says:

Target suffers 2/3/6 damage. Then, this model pushes directly into base contact with the target..."

Thunderous Smash reads: "After damaging, push all models engaged with this model 3" directly away from this model. Discard all Scheme, Corpse, and Scrap Markers within 3" of this model."

So does this push/destruction of markers happen before or after she pushes into base contact with the target model? Both things seem to be after damaging?

And if she kills the target, she doesn't push into base contact, does she?

[Adran]

16 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

It explicitly delays bring removed until after step 5

Unfortunatly it doesn't.

what it says is

"After damaging: These effects happen after Step 5 and only if the target
suffers 1 or more damage from the Action. These effects are resolved
before the damaged model is removed if it was killed by the damage."

 

Which can be read 2 ways,  trigger is moved forward or death is moved backwards

[Ludvig]

One effect is the push which is made during the resolution as par of the attack but after dealing damage. Then you have an "after damaging" trigger which happens After every effect listed in the attack has been dealth with in step 5 just like all other after triggers. Triggers with "after X" happen after step 5 and everything qritten in the attack is during step 5.

 

Short answer: push into btb first.

[Clement]

If the target takes lethal damage and you get your after damaging trigger, you still push into base contact. (After damaging triggers explicitly go off before the model is removed as killed so it will definitely still be around for the push into base contact which happens before the trigger)

If the target takes lethal damage and you *don't* get your after damaging trigger though...  Wouldn't they take the damage and be removed immediately as killed, so there's nothing to push into base with?  (very much hoping I'm wrong)   I'm sort of getting stuck on the " . Then, " part of this.

[solkan]

13 minutes ago, Clement said:

If the target takes lethal damage and you get your after damaging trigger, you still push into base contact. (After damaging triggers explicitly go off before the model is removed as killed so it will definitely still be around for the push into base contact which happens before the trigger)

If the target takes lethal damage and you *don't* get your after damaging trigger though...  Wouldn't they take the damage and be removed immediately as killed, so there's nothing to push into base with?  (very much hoping I'm wrong)   I'm sort of getting stuck on the " . Then, " part of this.

For better or for worse, that's the how the system has been built.

If there's no "After damaging" trigger, then the Killed model gets removed when it's killed and there's nowhere to push towards.

If there is an "After damaging trigger", then the removal is delayed until After Step 5, and there is somewhere to push towards.

 

[Erik1978]

I see.

So let us say I kill the target.

And this trigger requires a Mask. Which mean, if I have a mask, I push into base contact, if I don't have a mask, there is no trigger and the push doesn't happen, is that what you're saying?

[solkan]

13 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

I see.

So let us say I kill the target.

And this trigger requires a Mask. Which mean, if I have a mask, I push into base contact, if I don't have a mask, there is no trigger and the push doesn't happen, is that what you're saying?

If you have the mask and declare the trigger.  Unless the action states otherwise, you don't have to declare a trigger that you have the requirements for.

There are plenty of actions on Gremlins that say things like "must declare a trigger if able."

Edit:  Also, note that this is specifically a quirk of "After damaging" triggers interacting with the target getting killed.  It doesn't happen, for example, with "After succeeding" triggers.

 

[Erik1978]

Yes, IF I declare it of course.

 

What do you mean it doesn't happen with "after succeeding"? If the push-trigger happened after succeeding, and the target died, she wouldn't push into base?

[Clement]

40 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Yes, IF I declare it of course.

 

What do you mean it doesn't happen with "after succeeding"? If the push-trigger happened after succeeding, and the target died, she wouldn't push into base?

after damaging and after succeeding triggers both happen after the action resolves, but after damaging has special wording that forces the target to stay in play even if killed until after the after damaging trigger resolves.  After succeeding has no such requirement.

So in Mei Feng's case, if you get the Thunderous Smash Trigger and kill the target, you will get to to resolve the push.  If you get the Pressurized Vent trigger (from Vapormancy) and kill the target, then you don't get the push (it's an after succeeding trigger).

[Erik1978]

Ah, strange.

Thanks. I'm now a pro and knowledgable Mei Feng player... with my first game with her later this week. 

[Erik1978]

Oh, just saw another one for you: Kang can use his upgrade to cast TAUNT on others, but it doesn't say when this condition expires. So it expires at the end of turn as "normal" conditions? 

[Clement]

45 minutes ago, Erik1978 said:

Oh, just saw another one for you: Kang can use his upgrade to cast TAUNT on others, but it doesn't say when this condition expires. So it expires at the end of turn as "normal" conditions? 

Conditions that do not state a duration always end at the end of the turn, yes.

[Ludvig]

Regarding "after damaging". I read that as you move the after damaging trigger forward to occur at death, not that it delays death to after step 5. I would say you can't rewolve stuff that normally wouldn't resolve just because you had an after damaging trigger resolved.

[santaclaws01]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Regarding "after damaging". I read that as you move the after damaging trigger forward to occur at death, not that it delays death to after step 5. I would say you can't rewolve stuff that normally wouldn't resolve just because you had an after damaging trigger resolved.

It explicitly delays bring removed until after step 5

[Ludvig]

10 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

It explicitly delays bring removed until after step 5

It doesn't explicitly state that the death is delayed. It explicitly states trigger is resolved before the model is removed. Not sure that means the model is removed later, it could just as easily mean that you move the trigger up to be resolved earlier. Seems more logical that the exception to when the trigger is resolved moves the trigger since it doesn't mention changing the rest of the order and is under the timing for the trigger. It is a completely separate sentence so could easily be regarded as a special case separate from the normal timing.

[Ludvig]

I used to be on the death goes back team but when I read this these days it seems more and more obvious to me that the trigger gets a new timing if the model dies, not that you move the death.

It tells you when to resolve the trigger in two different scenarios: one timing for usual circumstances and one specific other timing for when the model dies from the damage.

I really can't see where it explicitly references changing when the model dies.

[solkan]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

It doesn't explicitly state that the death is delayed. It explicitly states trigger is resolved before the model is removed. Not sure that means the model is removed later, it could just as easily mean that you move the trigger up to be resolved earlier. Seems more logical that the exception to when the trigger is resolved moves the trigger since it doesn't mention changing the rest of the order and is under the timing for the trigger. It is a completely separate sentence so could easily be regarded as a special case separate from the normal timing.

Among other things, there's the FAQ that demonstrates that the After Damaging trigger timing doesn't move up.

Quote

If a model has an “After Damaging” Trigger which allows it to push/move and it kills a model with Explosive Demise, can it use its Trigger to push/move away from the model it killed before taking damage from Explosive Demise?

No. Explosive Demise happens when the model is killed, which would be during Step 5 of the duel process (Determine Success, Core Rulebook pg. 33) and After Damaging Triggers occur after Step 5 (Core Rulebook pg. 32). 

That's #71 in the Actions and Abilities Found Across Multiple Factions section.

[Ludvig]

2 hours ago, solkan said:

Among other things, there's the FAQ that demonstrates that the After Damaging trigger timing doesn't move up.

That's #71 in the Actions and Abilities Found Across Multiple Factions section.

Thanks! That settles this nicely.