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Lokibri

Shenlong Sniper Crew

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Hello everyone,

i organized a tournament yesterday and witnessed a player playing Shenling, Emissary, low river monk, 2 katanaka Sniper, Hans and a Freikorps Trapper...

Well it was a disgusting list that shot the dreamer opponent from nearly all angles but staying in the 6' to abuse the focus. It was slaughter! At the beginning of turn 3 the opponent conceded.

In round 3 he added a Kang, facing molly. It was a fixed master tournament and the opponent just didn`t want to run into it, so took cover behind a tree and stood there for 5 rounds after 2 models were obliterated by those snipers with kang buff. It went 1-3, because the resser player was smart enough not to play this game.

My question to you: How could you face this list, when you don`t know what to expect? It was kinda ridiculous to even watch it and i was thinking about counters and plays all the time with a "normal" list.

 

Any help appreciated :).

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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

There shouldn't be so little terrain that 4 snipers can seem like a viable option.

Yes, i thought that this argument would come up, but with snipers having fromthe shadows you can cover nearly the entire board and still be in that aura of shenlong.

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As a keen snipershen enthusiast I'd say the main weaknesses of the list are the low damage, poor defenses and so-so scheming abilities that detract from the already low damage if you choose to focus on them. They fare particularly poorly against sturdy lists or units that dive straight in, and it's 90% fear that's hurting your opponent. Keep one or two key pieces behind cover and just keep playing your game, knowing that your opponent will have a tough time outscoring you. Once you either engage them or start scoring the damage will suddenly drop to 0 in a heartbeat if they want to have any chance of winning.

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1 hour ago, Lokibri said:

Yes, i thought that this argument would come up, but with snipers having fromthe shadows you can cover nearly the entire board and still be in that aura of shenlong.

They shouldn't be able to unless you have some overly ideal sniper nests.

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47 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

As a keen snipershen enthusiast I'd say the main weaknesses of the list are the low damage, poor defenses and so-so scheming abilities that detract from the already low damage if you choose to focus on them. They fare particularly poorly against sturdy lists or units that dive straight in, and it's 90% fear that's hurting your opponent. Keep one or two key pieces behind cover and just keep playing your game, knowing that your opponent will have a tough time outscoring you. Once you either engage them or start scoring the damage will suddenly drop to 0 in a heartbeat if they want to have any chance of winning.

That is some help i appreciate :). Thanks for the insight :)

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You know the sketchiest counter to From The Shadows snipers are?

Other From The Shadows models! 

They put the Snipers out first, then I placed Crooligans in base contact with the Sniper.  We were both outside of each other's deployment zone, and there is nothing that says you cannot be in base contact when you deploy.  Do that with your own snipers, or anything else.

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9 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

You know the sketchiest counter to From The Shadows snipers are?

Other From The Shadows models! 

They put the Snipers out first, then I placed Crooligans in base contact with the Sniper.  We were both outside of each other's deployment zone, and there is nothing that says you cannot be in base contact when you deploy.  Do that with your own snipers, or anything else.

Jeah, well...but that is only possible, when you win the flip for it ^^.

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Was  the old "protect territory" in the pool? B) 

 

I think if you can win just stay and shooting something is going wrong.

a ) maybe the terrain displacement are totally wrong and lacks of cover / los cut 

b ) maybe players are still beginners, for example they own only the starter crews or maybe they don't have enough knowledge about enemy crew and game mechanics.

One time my opponent moved yamaziko (DF4) just out of cover but near his yasunori and another model, at 10inces from my fast Lazarus with the recalled training upgrade, I take out about 25SS just with one activation.

Another time my opponent dropped a scheme marker near 2 his models at 10 inces from Envy.

 

Fortunately there are many way to manage the lack of covers when the table will suggest you the opponent probably will take a shooting crew.

 

 

 

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It's a strong list, and I play it when I can't be someone :P It can lose spectacularly and quickly. I'd say it's biggest strength is how much is stressed out/tilts your opponent and makes them play defensively.

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Use terrain and hide, there should be plenty of terrain on the board including blocking and hard cover. Continue playing the mission. Don't let them cheat severe damage. I have generally found this list lacking against tournament level lists. It's too gimmicky.

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It is a strong list on the correct board with the correct scheme pool.

I usually use three snipers, so I can squeeze the Emissary and Yu in for the AoE and plus one hit on focus.

There are a few strats now that suit the gunline - Ours and Public executions, and unlike previous editions with the randomness of the pool, you can end up with a stack of killy schemes as well.

That having been said, if you run this pool, and you need to run schemes or play tag, you are right out of luck. Most of your points are standing around enabling your shooters. Usually I spend a few rounds shooting, then run around the map with Shenlong and Yu trying to throw together some VP.

 

 

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Do any of you have experience running Lazarus with Shenlong? I've been thinking about him as part of a ranged focus crew. A fast and focused Lazarus who dropped RT in a round could be a lot of fun. Perhaps not as precise as the Katanaka snipers, and maybe overkill with the focus, but would be devastating to anything bunched up. 

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So I tried this one myself tonight with Lazarus. I had, if memory serves:

Shenlong (wandering, yang, peaceful waters)

Peasant 

Emissary (dawn)

Lazarus (RT)

2x Snipers

Charm Warder 

Low river monk

It's pretty devastating if you have clear fire lanes. My first four shots with Lazarus and two shots with the first sniper were into hard cover, so I would argue there was a reasonable amount on the table but the recipient of said shots wouldn't agree. Regardless, it can do a lot. 

The MLR and Emissary give you 3 card draw, so you should have a nice hand. Each sniper can get 2 focused shots. Lazarus can be pushed wherever you need him between the emissary and Shenlong and will have fast in the process. So Lazarus should be able to pull of 4 recalled training shots with the autocannon in round one or round two at the latest. Then you follow up with 4 focused sniper shots. It's hard for most crews to hold up under that kind of firepower if they can't alpha. Even into hard cover (as I was shooting into), with 9 cards and RT Lazarus can hit most models and blast from time to time. If you manage to shoot at someone in in the open you're golden. 

So yeah, thumbs up. 

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Mctavish is a good option instead of Lazarus, for the ignore cover. You lose the blast, but gain 1 extra damage on the moderate as well as ignoring cover and randomizing. Gator snacks can still get you 4 shots per turn, or an extra card draw, while hunting screen is good against opposing ranged crews. And swallow whole is just hilarious.

Generally though, I try and avoid a full sniper crew. It can make for a boring game for both players.

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I agree that snipers with Shenlong are very strong. But I would be more afraid if there were only 2 Sniper and I would face a more rounded list. Against such an all shooty list there are quite a few tricks that don't need specific counter selections. Once you engage them they don't loose their damage potential fullly. Especially the Katanaka Sniper are scary in close combat. But it starts getting a fight on eye level.

And I fully agree it's bit rock paper scissors, wether you are prepared to face a sniper list. If Scheme/Strat-pool is in advantage of a sniper list and the terrain too then it's hard to beat such a list. Especially if you didn't prepare for killy schemes and open terrain. But that is then also the one player being better prepared than the other. You should have an idea about what to do on an open terrain with killy schemes. Even if you don't specifically try to counter a sniper list.

Neverborn:

Lilith: Beckon Malifaux is a standard Upgrade with her and an additional 10cm of LoS blocking terrain is awesome. Agreed Hans can shoot through it, but if it's only him then the list lost it's teeth. Also Wicked Mistress and Tangle Shadows gives tricks to get own models up the field or the pesky sniper towards you.

Dreamer: Start out activating with your Daydreams etc. On the last couple of activations you can easily push your heavy hitter with the Dreamer 12" and from there on the Snipers are in grave danger. Did that once against a Guild Rifleman gunline. Worked perfectly well.

Doppelganger: Found in many Lists. Move late in turn 1 cheat initiative in turn 2 and charge the sniper.

Ressurectionists:

The famous Rotten Belle or any other Model with Lure. Break the formation and get to them.

Guild:

Sometimes you simply have the superior firepower. E.g. with Perdita, Sonnia, ....

Hoffman with Arm2, no Blast Marker, etc. Yeah Hans can ignore Armor, but that's only him and a Locomotion Steam Golem is a nightmare for sniper.

Sonnia

Arcanists:

Imbued Energies + Beatstick + Pushes. Basically the same trick as with the Dreamer. Just rush the gunline late in turn 1.  The Captain with his airburst makes many lists. Howard Langston with the added Nimble can double Walk + Charge or in worst case quadruple walk. Or the Steam Golem with lot's of armor and Locomotion walks in turn 2 Especially with Imbued Energies.

Rasputina: Usually you have the Snowstorm with her. Yay Bulletproof aura + Rasputina casting + extra 20cm of LoS blocking Terrain.

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Yeah, I think you're right in the analysis. 1-2 snipers is usually the right way to go so you don't get too unbalanced. It was interesting to try and interesting to see how Lazarus performed in that environment, but I would agree, there are a lot of good counters. Thunders themselves have a ton of them! 

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Any good alpha strike can do it in too. Snipers don't stand up to strong beaters. Armor is a good technique too. Thunders suffers from that in general. 

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This is an honest question and i don`t want to undermine any of your theorycrafting, but did you actually try it?

The problem i see is a very wide spread crew and the option to use pushes with a very large kill threat range.

I saw a vik player trying to counter it but the positioning was problematic.

It sounds not well-rounded and of course some crews may counter it, but alphastriking and just sending models in, is not a real solution. Trust me, i saw 4 games now with different strategies.

Dreamer got devastated even before he could rech them.

Viks died to lazarus easily while hitting a peasant blasting off from or in this case a RJ on dmg.

I saw reva getting killed my snipers, because of range.

 

It is not as easy as i thought it would be tbh :)

 

Armor is a good way though i think.

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I don't think I p[lay a list where I don't have a model that could engage at least 1 sniper before it shot.

I've not faced the list you did, but the last time I faced a TT list with 2 snipers (I think it was 3 years ago now) I used the Nothing beast to rush one, and Tara to protect Bishop as they went after the second one, reaching it turn 2. The game was corner deployment with a huge River down the middle and they set a sniper up in each of the neutral corners. The second Sniper was actually more of a problem when I engaged it with Tara. Should have just left it to bishop really. 

 

Viks probably has the biggest problem, but several Viks Builds are set to throw Blood across the table enough that she would be able to get into the snipers nest and probably kill a large amount of it. But it hugely depends on what the table looks like. If the Table has potential, for a good snipers group then you ougth to consider it when you build you crew. 

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It can be pretty devastating, but just deny him LOS, and go scheme. You could deploy markers (Lilith, Carrion Emissary type stuff), lure, blast, alpha strike them, tar pit them, force WP checks (terror), activation control, etc. There are lots of things you can do, but it's no picnic. As a TT player I know the pain that can be facing a Shen gun line.

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