All The Jorogumo Ninjas, Where Do They All Come From?

[Jesy Blue]

So I'm trying out a concept with, but I've run into quandary.

I'm going to use Yamaziko with Smoke & Shadows, hire 2 to 3 Jorogumo, and 3 to 4 Clockwork Traps.  The premise is to bury all the Jorogumo turn 1 and have hopefully at least one Clockwork Trap, which deployed via From The Shadows ability up to 6" away from the enemy deployment zone, alive still to unbury all the Jorogumo within 6" of it.

The questions come from the order of unburying the Jorogumo: do they unbury all at once (for this example, placing them each within 6" of a single Clockwork Trap), or can I unbury the first Jorogumo within 6" of the Clockwork Trap, then unbury the second Jorogumo foward 6" from the first unburied Jorogumo, then the third 6" forward of the second one, and in theory just keep Daisy Chaining them along until I run out of buried Last Blossom minions.

I believe they are simultaneous... but I can't find anything that discredits the other idea.  Some help would be appreciated.

[Hanna]

Option B: One after another

But you need three 8+ Masks for this Plan...

[Trample]

Funny, I was just wondering the same thing. I'm in the process of painting my jorogumo right now and was wondering if you could string them out in a line. I hadn't thought of the clockwork traps though! I like that. I was planning on three of them with McCabe and would use a guild hound or two as my anchors. 

[Carecalmo]

6 hours ago, Hanna said:

Option B: One after another

But you need three 8+ Masks for this Plan...

Nah, just three 6+ Masks. That's a whole two more cards you can use for it!

I've mostly played Smoke and Shadows with Misaki (and always given her Misdirection) and I've never had the opportunity to bury three models with it. But I do see how the ability to unbury in a chain gives a crazy amount of mobility. I would love to hear your experiences with Jorogumo and Smoke and Shadows!

[Jesy Blue]

46 minutes ago, Carecalmo said:

Nah, just three 6+ Masks. That's a whole two more cards you can use for it!

I was thinking about starting around Mr Tanner so I could use 4+, but that's 6 SS for a one trick pony that only increases my chances from 14% to 18% of getting usable cards.

Thanks for the answers, now to actually buy some Jorogumo.

[InvokeChaos]

Remember that yamaziko can bury too! but you can stone for her, hehe.  

I feel like the problem here is that their entire crew is going to get to react to this.  If you run yama + 3 spiders and 3 traps that's 40ss right there. So after master upgrades you're getting maybe one other model, and that's it. That means you have 6 activations at most.  I've seen lower activtions overall this wave, but you have to imagine that if they have 8-9 activations, they're going to just bumrush those traps and nuke them to try to minimize the impact. 

Maybe in asami for summons to fluff the count?  Super card hungry still....

Oh oh oh oh! Run it with Mei Fang and have the traps act as a railwalk ramp.  Then have her just vent steam with misdirection (misdirect onto traps!) and drop your Joro next to her as a wall of spidery doom.  

[Jesy Blue]

Clockwork Traps are not Constructs so I don't think that will work.

And only Last Blossom Minions are affected by Smoke & Shadows.

[InvokeChaos]

What is this tomfoolery!?!? They are not!!

booooo 

and yeah I know. But yamaziko is last blossom. So she counts.

[InvokeChaos]

Declared Faction: TenThunders 50ss 
Leader: Mei Feng - Cache:(6)
   Rail Lines 1ss 
   Seismic Claws 1ss 
   Vapormancy 1ss 
Yamaziko 6ss 
   Smoke & Shadows 1ss 
Jorogumo 9ss 
Jorogumo 9ss 
Jorogumo 9ss 
Bunraku 5ss 
Bunraku 5ss 

rofl totally trying this out for fun

[Tendrepie]

9 minutes ago, InvokeChaos said:

What is this tomfoolery!?!? They are not!!

booooo 

and yeah I know. But yamaziko is last blossom. So she counts.

Yamaziko is last blossom but she's not a minion... so she can carry the upgrade put can't take the actions on it

[InvokeChaos]

You know I never noticed that. Fail! That’s what I get for never using that upgrade, lol.

By pure chance I have never tried to use those abilities on her, but good to know moving forward!

[Piccio]

When I started Mlx I didn't read the "minion" part too. I wrongly used that upgrade on Misaki for a couple of mounths. Kill then disappear as a ninja.

[Amayasu]

They do unbury in sequence, you can chain them, and it can be remarkably effective; i've tried it a couple of times... but it's card reliant, which means you can't rely on it.

 

I have taken Yamaziko in an Asami list, and used it to bury a summoned Spider or two. It's fun, but again, it's not really reliable.

[InvokeChaos]

5 hours ago, Piccio said:

When I started Mlx I didn't read the "minion" part too. I wrongly used that upgrade on Misaki for a couple of mounths. Kill then disappear as a ninja.

Dude that would be epic.  I knew it was non-master... for some reason that's where it stayed for me haha. 

At least I haven't accidently used it on someone! 

Though this does push us to the concept of maybe there are certain masters that are better at this trick simply because of card manipulation?

Immediate thoughts:

Lynch for obvious reasons
Shenlong cuz 9-card hand
Asami/Misaki for rush?

And you can pad all of these fellows with gwyneth and/or sue.  Just means that you lose a joro.  But maybe that's the ticket?  You only run two mega-spidres and another utility model that can get some work done?  Sue is a pretty decent ranged threat, especially with Shen for the fast. Just mid-ranged. Great anti-cast tech, card draw... Lynch even gets a free mobile henchman in huggy.  Perhaps something like this?

Declared Faction: TenThunders 50ss 
Leader: Jakob Lynch - Cache:(4)
   Rising Sun 2ss 
   Woke Up With A Hand 2ss
Hungering Darkness 0ss
   Smoke Grenades 1ss
Yamaziko 6ss 
   Smoke & Shadows 1ss
Gwyneth Maddox 8ss
Sue - 8+1ss
Jorogumo 9ss 
Jorogumo 9ss 

Though honestly, shenlong has better overall card draw in general... so maybe just stick with him. That 0ss huggy activation is pretty awesome though.
 

[Eclipse]

I haven't tried the Jorogumo (yet, the time for Oni invasion will come relatively soon). However, I have tried the other S&S minions, and the conclusion I reached thanks to this experience is the following: I can get two Oiran for about the price of second Jorogumo! While the Jorogumo want to engage and hit enemies, the Oiran can be very slippery schemers with the unpredictability Shadow porting gives. I've also found the LoS blocking smoke markers very useful against blasters (like Wong) as well as chargers (like the Victorias). Additionally, they are Disguised, so with careful positioning you can string and evade the enemy with them, or use their huge Ch8 to engage if you really, really need something tied up for one AP,  hopefully two.
They work best with some ranged cover - TT Archer from behind smoke/cover, sniper from large range, or my personal favorite - Fuhatsu! As a tanky gun platform he offers two different types of board control, even if you don't trigger Hidden Agenda successfully (and there is no reason not to put it on him).
I like to run Lynch the most and this has worked out for me pretty decently in the past. What I was lacking at the time was the correct assembly of models to finish off the remaining role(s) in the team, the upgrade "Cheating Bastard", and the higher at the time cost of the models involved in the composition. I sold most of said models already, unfortunately, but already feel the urge to buy and paint them yet again...

[InvokeChaos]

2 minutes ago, Eclipse said:

I haven't tried the Jorogumo (yet, the time for Oni invasion will come relatively soon). However, I have tried the other S&S minions, and conclusion I reached thanks to this experience is the following: I can get two Oiran for about the price of second Jorogumo! While the Jorogumo want to engage and hit enemies, the Oiran can be very slippery schemers with the unpredictability Shadow porting gives. I've also found the LoS blocking smoke markers very useful against blasters (like Wong) as well as chargers (like the Victorias). Additionally, they are Disguised, so with careful positioning you can string and evade the enemy with them, or use their huge Ch8 to engage if you really, really need something tied up for one AP,  hopefully two.
They work best with some ranged cover - TT Archer from behind smoke/cover, sniper from large range, or my personal favorite - Fuhatsu! As a tanky gun platform he offers two different types of board control, even if you don't trigger Hidden Agenda successfully (and there is no reason not to put it on him).
I like to run Lynch the most and this has worked out for me pretty decently in the past. What I was lacking at the time was the correct assembly of models to finish off the remaining role(s) in the team, the upgrade "Cheating Bastard", and the higher at the time cost of the models involved in the composition. I sold most of said models already, unfortunately, but already feel the urge to buy and paint them yet again...

I like the ideas here! Makes me want to test it out  

[Amayasu]

There are wider problems than just cards. Jorogumo are good, no doubt, but they're ML5 on their main attack immediately after your opponent draws a hand. It's sign posted considerably, any player worth their salt will see this coming. There are ways of neutering them (slow, paralyse, they're Df5 in a game with increasing amounts of HtW and HtK ignoring, they're activating early so Eat your fill isn't going to matter all that much, and so on). If your goal is to demostrate publically, then Torage are better for the additional VP. If you're after a symbol then great, but 9SS for that? There are better choices.

 

And so on.

 

Fun, sure, but not worth building a crew around imho. Remember this is, at it's cheapest, 25 Stones just to be able to do this with two spiders.

[Jesy Blue]

So here's what I've got so far:

50 SS Ten Thunders Crew
Asami Tanaka + 3 Pool
 - A Heavenly Design (2)
 - On Wings Of Wind (2)
 - Borrowed Time (1)
Amanjaku (3)
Ohaguro Bettari (8)
 - A Taste For Flesh (1)
 - The Fate of Mortals (2)
Yamaziko (6)
 - Smoke & Shadows (1)
Jorogumo (9)
Jorogumo (9)
Clockwork Trap (2)
Clockwork Trap (2)
Clockwork Trap (2)

 (exported from CrewFaux)

Here's the concept... since S&S unburying does not require Los, just to be within 6", placement of the Clockwork Traps will need to be in the most inaccessible and terrible to get to locations to confirm 1st turn survival.

Next, as everyone in the crew can heal on their own in someway (sans Yamaziko & the totem), and Flicker on Asami can generate suits, I only need Soul Stones for cycling cards first turn, so that, along with Rush of Magic, to get a good hand 6+ of Masks, the higher the better.  

If I get two 8+ of Masks, then the Jorogumo with move and Smoke Bombs, rolling into Shadow Stride (doing these activations last).  If I only get 6+ of Masks, then right to Shadow Stride.  In a perfect world where im sitting on a hanfull of high masks, I can summon additional Jorogumo and use Asami's own Flicker to keep them around... but let's not count on that.  

In a worse case scenario, get any 6+ and have Asami cast Oni's Strength to give both Jorogumo Focus +2, and hope three flips will get Shadow Stride off.  Or do that even if all goes well so they arrive to fight with Focus.

From there is where you get flexible.  Get summons off and move Asami, Bettari, and Yamaziko to locations to set up for next turn for where things need to be on turn 2 based on strategy and scheme.

Sure it's not top table build.... but im not a top table player yet, and neither are most of the people in my meta, so I gotta learn by doing, and I gotta be me.

 

Thanks for the conversation, folks.  I'll report back once I get a couple of games in.

[Eclipse]

On 2/5/2018 at 10:10 PM, Jesy Blue said:

So here's what I've got so far:

50 SS Ten Thunders Crew
Asami Tanaka + 3 Pool
 - A Heavenly Design (2)
 - On Wings Of Wind (2)
 - Borrowed Time (1)
Amanjaku (3)
Ohaguro Bettari (8)
 - A Taste For Flesh (1)
 - The Fate of Mortals (2)
Yamaziko (6)
 - Smoke & Shadows (1)
Jorogumo (9)
Jorogumo (9)
Clockwork Trap (2)
Clockwork Trap (2)
Clockwork Trap (2)...

This reminded me of something I forgot to mention in my previous post: Since you are using Clockwork Traps, why not bring the Pathfinder instead?
You can deploy him From the Shadows close to their team, activating him first (to tie up the opposition). (1) Walk, (0) Summon Trap, (1) Walk away back to cover OR (1) Shoot.
If you are worried about not having the 6 for the trap you could also hire one and remove either OWoW or TFoM upgrade. In this case it would be (1) Walk, (0) PLACE Trap up to 6" away, (1) Walk away back to cover OR (1) Shoot.

[Jesy Blue]

With A Heavenly Design & On Wings of Wind on Asami, I get 9" of movement and her actual important AP can be used for important stuff.

In order to fit Pathfinder in the list I would either remove Bettari or the 3 Traps. 

Taking Borrowed Time on Asami I want to make sure I get all the ways to add more Flicker on her cause I use that stuff like a junkie, so I need someone to carry The Fate of Mortals.  The only two options are Bettari or Ama no Zako.  While the funny synergy of letting Ama no Zaku feed on the Clockwork Traps with Swallow You Whole gives the traps a later use, I find Bettari more useful to the army as a whole, and her healing does not require so much set up. 

Typically I would not take Ananjaku but Malifaux Child as my totem and dole out Focus +2 like a miniature Shadow Emissary, but I need that Flicker like Gollum needs The One Ring!

Also, for the same SS cost i could have one advanced location beacon for teleportation arrival with 6 wounds, or three with 3 wounds and Armor +2 each that are HT 1.  For that first turn, the opponent would have to work their butt off to get rid of them all; if they are focused on that, they are not focused on their own strategy... they are not acting but reacting.

I can find no other way to add in a Pathfinder without ruining the concept of the crew... unless you can suggest a better Upgrade build on Asami that will not use Borrowed Time, but that upgrade is so good!

[Eclipse]

30 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

With A Heavenly Design & On Wings of Wind on Asami, I get 9" of movement and her actual important AP can be used for important stuff.

In order to fit Pathfinder in the list I would either remove Bettari or the 3 Traps. 

Taking Borrowed Time on Asami I want to make sure I get all the ways to add more Flicker on her cause I use that stuff like a junkie, so I need someone to carry The Fate of Mortals.  The only two options are Bettari or Ama no Zako.  While the funny synergy of letting Ama no Zaku feed on the Clockwork Traps with Swallow You Whole gives the traps a later use, I find Bettari more useful to the army as a whole, and her healing does not require so much set up. 

Typically I would not take Ananjaku but Malifaux Child as my totem and dole out Focus +2 like a miniature Shadow Emissary, but I need that Flicker like Gollum needs The One Ring!

Also, for the same SS cost i could have one advanced location beacon for teleportation arrival with 6 wounds, or three with 3 wounds and Armor +2 each that are HT 1.  For that first turn, the opponent would have to work their butt off to get rid of them all; if they are focused on that, they are not focused on their own strategy... they are not acting but reacting.

I can find no other way to add in a Pathfinder without ruining the concept of the crew... unless you can suggest a better Upgrade build on Asami that will not use Borrowed Time, but that upgrade is so good!

I guess it just comes down to play-style: I personally would take Ama no Zako w/ Fate and replace On Wings of Wind + 2 Clockwork Traps with a Pathfinder.
I also think Borrowed Time is golden (in theory, haven't started Asami yet) - but with the mobility it gives is On Wings of Wind really that necessary? You are pretty mobile as is with Heavenly Design (also golden ^_^).
In any case, I honestly don't want to ruin the concept of your crew, please share how your list worked after you put in on the table as I am interested in the idea myself

[Amayasu]

Honestly you don't need the traps. They're a trap, ironically. It sign-posts your intent. That's 6 stones on top of 25 stones for this one idea; you're way, way over invested into it. Asami and Betty can handle the movement if needed. Asami summons something cheap; Betty jumps to it. Asami summons something else, Betty Jumps to it. Betty Activates late, finds a good spot. She doesn't need LoS next turn to do her thing anyway.

Remember too that Yokai get free movement at the end of the turn when their flicker drops. If you poison them they do it twice. It's also a 3" place, so really it's a 4" move.

Those 6 stones could give you a Terracotta Warrior, or perhaps even better, a Charm Warder (disguised on Betty).

 

 

[Bigbird990]

I ran a similar thing for 6/7 games at the UK nationals. 

It was something like.... (from memory as Crewfaux got deleted....)

Misaki 

S&S, recalled training and storm

3* jorogumo 

2 * sniper 

1 * pathfinder 

 

It was really really fun, but didnt work very well. Most turns I only had the had to teleport 1 jorogumo at a time to the 3 from the shadows deployments and they normally got isolated and killed. Misaki was too card hungry so the Jorogumo missed lots at MI 5. Also had difficulty getting scheme markers in the right place.

The snipers were great, but theyre snipers.... really good with misaki because she dies lots! 

The pathfinder was great, rarely had the right card to summon a trap though, and one game I made a huge mistake and forgot that undead near nicodem ignore slow.... and forgot that they gave up points for hunting party (in GG18 they can be plyed for info now too). 

The whole smoke and shadows gimic is one of my favorite in Malifaux but it's not great  

Definitely have fun with it in chilled out games but if youre trying to win it's and uphill fight! 

[Jesy Blue]

2 hours ago, Amayasu said:

Honestly you don't need the traps. They're a trap, ironically. It sign-posts your intent. That's 6 stones on top of 25 stones for this one idea; you're way, way over invested into it. Asami and Betty can handle the movement if needed. Asami summons something cheap; Betty jumps to it. Asami summons something else, Betty Jumps to it. Betty Activates late, finds a good spot. She doesn't need LoS next turn to do her thing anyway.

Remember too that Yokai get free movement at the end of the turn when their flicker drops. If you poison them they do it twice. It's also a 3" place, so really it's a 4" move.

Those 6 stones could give you a Terracotta Warrior, or perhaps even better, a Charm Warder (disguised on Betty).

I forgot about the Yokai super moves!!  Jorogumo backed by charging Yokai and antidefence Bettari aura is hilarious.

Okay, try going original list a couple of times, then make some changes and see how the Yokai do.

[Bumpasses]

On 2/5/2018 at 2:30 AM, Piccio said:

When I started Mlx I didn't read the "minion" part too. I wrongly used that upgrade on Misaki for a couple of mounths. Kill then disappear as a ninja.

Would be a very interesting change, make it master or minion.... Especially If her damage profile isn't going to ever change.

Definitely thematic.