Brewmaster AND/or Zoraida??

[Bazlord_Prime]

Got a tourney coming up in a couple of weeks, and I've been away from Gremlins for a while (the locals have been running a "use a different faction to normal" Shifting Loyalties campaign for the last 4 months or so).

So deciding which Master(s) to reacquaint myself with is proving a little challenging. I was in the middle of a Brewmaster kick last time, stubbornly trying to get myself to the point where I could crack him, and that was going alright. But I'm wondering now if I was just trying to prove a point about him not being as bad/NPE as he's reputed to be. Plus now, he has a couple new upgrades that look pretty interesting...

But don't ALL the Masters! :-)

So, if I'm going to choose two Masters to practice with before the tournament (I don't think I'll get in more than 2 practice games before then), I'm leaning towards Brewmaster & Zoraida.

Thing is, they're not totally dissimilar in what they do. Maybe it's just their Obeys they make me think that, but they're both what you'd call "Support", or "Buff/Debuff" Masters.

Anyone think I'd be painting myself into a corner of inflexibility with regards to Strats & Schemes if I made those two my primary choices for the 3 game tournament? (There are no S&S published for it yet, as it's a last minute event).

I have every Master except Ulix, and have most of the Factions models available to me. And I'm more into having fun while being a bit competitive, rather than going hard-out to optimise & win.

Thanks!

[Cadaver_Junkie]

I love Brewmaster!

I've taken him to about 4 tournaments now so far, and smashing with him.

Last tournament, using only Brewmaster,  I won 4 games to 1 loss and came second - so I don't believe him to be all that second rate. Especially Swill, my god. More important than the Obey, most games. And now, with a cheaper Running Tab, Moon Shinobi and Whiskey Golem you can fit a whole extra model in your crew with the difference. Assuming you run him thematically.

Some of those wins were brutal too, which brings me to an important aspect; 
There may be a hidden advantage to Brewmaster as people don't expect to face him at a tournament, and often don't have a lot of experience with or against him so are more likely to make mistakes. Like not cheating everything you have to stop the first instance of 'Swill' in a turn, or actually allowing an important model to be stuck in the bubble.

Mostly though, I find him to be a lot of fun. I'm sure Zoraida can be too, but there it is. I don't think you'd be painted into a corner at all! 

[Haagrum]

Brewie got some decent help from the errata and GG2018. Moon Shinobi, Whiskey Golem and Running Tab all got cheaper. With a Tanuki (for Bottles Everywhere and Magic Elixir shenanigans) and Fingers around, they're much better for a lot of the GG2018 schemes. Moon Shinobi in particular are excellent for Public Demonstration, Ply For Information  (thanks, Drunken Gremlin Kung-Fu!) and even for Ours, thanks to That's The Stuff.

Swill is always fantastic. It's a brutal attack. Brewie doesn't need many upgrades, although I'd always use Stilts on him unless you're giving them to Francois. Obey is less crucial unless you take A Friendly Ear - the suit requirement hurts in opposed duels, but if your guys have Poison, it's less card-intensive than other options. Binge is often a better option as there's no TN or suit required. Wesley can also use it, and it's murder on an opponent's control hand.

I don't own Zoraida, but Powerful Control is extremely nasty. If someone takes Yasunori or another model with "attack again" triggers against her, Zoraida can wreck a lot of face with some high Masks.

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 31/01/2018 at 2:08 PM, Cadaver_Junkie said:

I love Brewmaster!

I've taken him to about 4 tournaments now so far, and smashing with him.

Mostly though, I find him to be a lot of fun. I'm sure Zoraida can be too, but there it is. I don't think you'd be painted into a corner at all! 

Thanks!

I'm certainly envious of all your positive experiences with Brewy, and I'm looking forward to creating my own fond memories with him, but it turns out that for this tournament, I'm going to go with Zoraida 

I dunno - I just fancy a change, I think. And also, one of the Rounds is "Ours", with "Public Demonstration" & "Set Up" in the Scheme pool. And I don't think that I'm a strong enough man to not take the Pigapult + 3 Tanuki list for that one...  so it's probably best I just avoid it!!

 

[Cadaver_Junkie]

28 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Thanks!

I'm certainly envious of all your positive experiences with Brewy, and I'm looking forward to creating my own fond memories with him, but it turns out that for this tournament, I'm going to go with Zoraida 

I dunno - I just fancy a change, I think. And also, one of the Rounds is "Ours", with "Public Demonstration" & "Set Up" in the Scheme pool. And I don't think that I'm a strong enough man to not take the Pigapult + 3 Tanuki list for that one...  so it's probably best I just avoid it!!

 

I'll be running Tanuki with Iron Skeeters in my next Brewmaster list. 

I feel they are a little more tactically flexible than a Tanukipult, plus dumping a Tanuki next to your target and hitting it twice with Disable It from 'Poorly Handled Explosives' is fantastic for Set Up.  

One Tanuki, one Gremlin Crier, and two Iron Skeeters

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 31/01/2018 at 5:20 PM, Haagrum said:

Brewie got some decent help from the errata and GG2018. Moon Shinobi, Whiskey Golem and Running Tab all got cheaper. With a Tanuki (for Bottles Everywhere and Magic Elixir shenanigans) and Fingers around, they're much better for a lot of the GG2018 schemes. Moon Shinobi in particular are excellent for Public Demonstration, Ply For Information  (thanks, Drunken Gremlin Kung-Fu!) and even for Ours, thanks to That's The Stuff.

Binge is often a better option as there's no TN or suit required. Wesley can also use it, and it's murder on an opponent's control hand.

Haha! I was just talking about the Tanuki for that S&S pool, and here you go giving me the Moon Shinobi as another great option! Perhaps I should just stop fighting it? If my opponent declares Rezzers in that round, i think i might just fold and go the way of the Brew...

I do love stripping cards out of the hand, tho. It's so powerful. Between that & Swill, he sure does have some great generic shut-down abilities.

So Brewy could get Fast from the Tanuki, and with Wesley on board as well that's a potential 5 cards that Binge might extract. Would probably want to do one Swill tho, to set it up.

[Bazlord_Prime]

6 minutes ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

I'll be running Tanuki with Iron Skeeters in my next Brewmaster list. 

I feel they are a little more tactically flexible than a Tanukipult, plus dumping a Tanuki next to your target and hitting it twice with Disable It from 'poorly handled explosives' is fantastic for Set Up.  

One Tanuki, one Gremlin Crier, and two Iron Skeeters

Yeah, the Criers are looking more & more awesome. Still haven't played one yet, but they do a lot. 

Re: "Disable It", are you thinking to fly the Skeeters up using one of their own AP, then use an Obey from Brewy so that you get two cracks at it?

[Cadaver_Junkie]

7 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Re: "Disable It", are you thinking to fly the Skeeters up using one of their own AP, then use an Obey from Brewy so that you get two cracks at it?

That, or I'll have one fly the Tanuki with a double walk from 12" away (harder to see it coming), and the other will already be within 8" for a double smack with the Disable It stick.

EDIT: The Crier can then be dropped off wherever needed, within 12" plus his own walk. Last turn dropping the crier next to what is obviously the opponent's undercover entourage model? Wishful thinking, but if you're careful, hilariously useful!

[Bazlord_Prime]

36 minutes ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

EDIT: The Crier can then be dropped off wherever needed, within 12" plus his own walk. Last turn dropping the crier next to what is obviously the opponent's undercover entourage model? Wishful thinking, but if you're careful, hilariously useful!

I love that the Criers are Ht1! It's ludicrous! They've got so much scope to just swoop in on a Skeeter and negate a model or two for "Ours", while counting themselves. They can negate the "Ply" & "Executions" conditions, and they have an okay Ml attack as well. Very cool.

[Cadaver_Junkie]

20 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

I love that the Criers are Ht1! It's ludicrous! They've got so much scope to just swoop in on a Skeeter and negate a model or two for "Ours", while counting themselves. They can negate the "Ply" & "Executions" conditions, and they have an okay Ml attack as well. Very cool.

Plus, in some missions I''ll be running them alongside The First Mate, with Where the Captain Can't See and Treasure Map. So much card draw...

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

5 hours ago, Cadaver_Junkie said:

That, or I'll have one fly the Tanuki with a double walk from 12" away (harder to see it coming), and the other will already be within 8" for a double smack with the Disable It stick.

EDIT: The Crier can then be dropped off wherever needed, within 12" plus his own walk. Last turn dropping the crier next to what is obviously the opponent's undercover entourage model? Wishful thinking, but if you're careful, hilariously useful!

I think you mean "catch" (which gives the volatile explosives condition) but unless I'm reading something wrong or tanuki do something special, using it twice on the same model wouldn't stack. It's not a +1 type condition, like burning

[Cadaver_Junkie]

13 minutes ago, Sol_Sorrowsong said:

I think you mean "catch" (which gives the volatile explosives condition) but unless I'm reading something wrong or tanuki do something special, using it twice on the same model wouldn't stack. It's not a +1 type condition, like burning

Poorly Handled Explosives gives two (1) Attack Actions.

Most people only ever talk about the 1st one : "Catch"

I much prefer the 2nd one: "Disable It" - you place a scheme marker friendly to the target in base contact with the target, and then the target gains Slow.

There is so much utility it offers! I mean, you can remove enemy scheme markers but not friendly ones - if your opponent has a scheme that requires markers to be a certain distance apart, just force them to place another right next to it! Disable their ability to score. Plus hands out slow.

And with a Tanuki going for Set Up, it's going to use it's front of card ability immediately to place a scheme marker, so who cares if it had Slow beforehand? Not me
 

[DanteJH]

Hey, sorry to slow down the brewmaster train but I would seriously recommend taking zoraida over brewmaster.

Brewie is great in certain scheme and strat pools but zoraida is ALWAYS applicable. Just warning you, if you choose brewmaster there will be times you won’t have a lot of options for the schemes and strats

[Cadaver_Junkie]

2 hours ago, DanteJH said:

Hey, sorry to slow down the brewmaster train but I would seriously recommend taking zoraida over brewmaster.

Brewie is great in certain scheme and strat pools but zoraida is ALWAYS applicable. Just warning you, if you choose brewmaster there will be times you won’t have a lot of options for the schemes and strats

Just wondering - which schemes and/or strats do you see as a particular issue? 

EDIT: IMO GG18 looks ok for Brewmaster. Wouldn't say he's the strongest, or better than Zoraida, however I think he has enough tricks in his bag to do alright in most matchups.

[Bazlord_Prime]

Since the challenge has (kinda) been thrown down (kinda...), here's the S&S for this weekends tourny. @DanteJH: see whether you think you'd rather run Brewy or Z for each Round, and Cadaver_Junkie: see whether you think Brewy would have any particular issues with each ;-)

Round 1: Ply for Information, Standard Deployment. Surround Them, Hold Up Their Forces, Vendetta, Undercover Entourage, Recover Evidence.

Round 2: Ours, Corner Deployment. Guarded Treasure, Show of Force, Public Demonstration, Set Up, Dig Their Graves.

Round 3: Public Executions, Close Deployment. Eliminate The Leadership, Inescapable Trap, Search The Ruins, Take Prisoner, Take One For The Team.

 

[DanteJH]

18 minutes ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Since the challenge has (kinda) been thrown down (kinda...), here's the S&S for this weekends tourny. @DanteJH: see whether you think you'd rather run Brewy or Z for each Round, and Cadaver_Junkie: see whether you think Brewy would have any particular issues with each ;-)

Round 1: Ply for Information, Standard Deployment. Surround Them, Hold Up Their Forces, Vendetta, Undercover Entourage, Recover Evidence.

Round 2: Ours, Corner Deployment. Guarded Treasure, Show of Force, Public Demonstration, Set Up, Dig Their Graves.

Round 3: Public Executions, Close Deployment. Eliminate The Leadership, Inescapable Trap, Search The Ruins, Take Prisoner, Take One For The Team.

 

Round 1: ply is good for brewmaster just because of the tanuki trick but the scheme pool doesn’t favour him at all. For this reason I’d take zoraida because she’s great at entourage and can give her crew the extra boost needed for surround and can obey models off evidence markers. Again, I like brewie in ply but don’t like the pool for its lack of markers

round 2

I’m taking zoraida because brewmaster doesn’t like it when things spread out but this scheme pool does favour brewie. I’d take guarded treasure and set up (obeying the model to walk into the trap lol)

round 3 

Now this is a brewie pool! Lots of markers, engagements and survival. I’d take search the ruins and inescapable trap/take one for the team

 

Its important to note that I love brewie, if you look in other related threads you’ll see me advocating for him, it’s just that, as a master, he’s a sometimes good while zoraida can be an always good because of her being a force multiplier 

 

 

[Cadaver_Junkie]

6 hours ago, Bazlord_Prime said:

Since the challenge has (kinda) been thrown down (kinda...), here's the S&S for this weekends tourny. @DanteJH: see whether you think you'd rather run Brewy or Z for each Round, and Cadaver_Junkie: see whether you think Brewy would have any particular issues with each ;-)

Round 1: Ply for Information, Standard Deployment. Surround Them, Hold Up Their Forces, Vendetta, Undercover Entourage, Recover Evidence.

Round 2: Ours, Corner Deployment. Guarded Treasure, Show of Force, Public Demonstration, Set Up, Dig Their Graves.

Round 3: Public Executions, Close Deployment. Eliminate The Leadership, Inescapable Trap, Search The Ruins, Take Prisoner, Take One For The Team.

 

Ooooh I like a challenge! In transit now, will return to edit this reply asap.

NOTE: I don't really use Drinking Contest. I actually prefer One for the Road in many situations, like Vendetta or Public Demonstration.
I've also only been playing Malifaux for a little while, so not the best at advice

Round 1 Verdict: Reasonable

* = My Pick

*Ply for Information is ok for Brewmaster; easy enough to obey your own models (with A Friendly Ear) to Ply or move away afterwards, if you have an Akaname. Drinking Contest will be actually useful. Run a Gremlin Crier next to your Brewmaster to completely deny the enemy and draw cards from Binge (although IMO Binge is a little unreliable, I don't take it.)
Watch our for lures - perhaps Sparks is useful here. Moon Shinobi will be fantastic for their reliability at doing severe damage to remove Ply.

Surround Them is easy enough with Fingers, or First Mate, or any fast moving gremlins - but that's not limited to Brewmaster. Not my first choice of schemes.

Hold Up Their Forces is made for Gremlin Criers. And tarpitting Brewmasters. Or swilled Moon Shinobis. Not too bad. Low priority though as it takes 3 turns to score and is too visible to the opponent.

*Vendetta is written for a Swill +1 Moon Shinobi attacking a Swill +2 6SS sucker enemy model.
I would pick this scheme (pending enemy crew), easy three points. Even easier if the Moon Shinobi has a friendly Iron Skeeter dropping him off with Fast late in the turn, you have like 21" range for 3 attacks on something juicy. They wont see it coming. Do it turn 2 if you want to put your opponent off balance.

*Undercover Entourage is made for Fingers. He heals himself and he'll get through on his own easily enough, but shepherd him up one side of the board (or fly him in an Iron Skeeter) for maximum efficiency. Not particular to Brewmaster crews. I would pick this. Also meshes ok with Surround Them.

Recover Evidence is possible, depends entirely on makeup of enemy crew. Not my first pick.

 

Round 2 Verdict:  Reasonable

*Ours seems fantastic for Tanuki and Gremlin Criers on Iron Skeeters. You'll control the board against many crews, at least a couple of turns. Don't forget that a summoned Wesley or Brewmaster don't count for this Strategy though.

Guarded Treasure is one of those schemes I don't really like - you're telegraphing it to your opponent, no matter how hard to try and be sneaky.

Show of Force is another 'give your opponent a million years to counteract it' scheme. Not my choice. Not great in my Brew Crews either, I run very low on upgrades. Zipp on the other hand...

*Public Demonstration;  Swill on a poisoned enemy model, then obey and move them twice - you can manage this if you're careful. You also have good minion choices in Gremlins. I'd use Swinecursed or Moon Shinobi for reasonably fast models. Plus, they can then go to town on a swilled out of position enemy model. Just don't kill it until after you've revealed the scheme!

*Setup; I have a theory about this one that I really want to try as mentioned earlier in this thread. Two Iron Skeeters, a Tanuki, and Poorly Handled Explosives. A little careful setup and you can get 3 VP pretty easily. Lose the Iron Skeeter with the upgrade and you're in trouble. Fingers is a good alternative to the Tanuki.

Dig Their Graves is not ideal to a Brew Crew. You can build for it, Swill will help, but Swill is likely better at one or two good assassinations over a game, not attrition.

 

Round 3 Verdict: Tough for (my) Brewmaster

*Public Executions; My Brew Crews are good at dragging down tough single models, not so great at attrition. Will depend on the opponents crew. Use swill everywhere. Gremlin Criers are your friend when they block the Shed Blood condition on enemy models.

Eliminate the Leadership is dangerous to Brewmaster. You can often do a surprise assassination of enemy leaders using swill and a beater or two, but Brewmaster can die  quickly if your opponent focuses down. Or has range and LOS. You likely wont use Drinking Contest in this game - luckily Hangover and Obey have reasonable range!

Inescapable Trap; A telegraphed scheme, which I don't like. That said, if you get someone stuck in a Drinking Contest (which you'll avoid because of Eliminate the Leadership), or if you have Fingers doing his thing, or a Tanuki, or maybe even a performer, it's doable.

*Search the Ruins; 'Disable It' might be great at ruining your opponent's plans if they take this. Really depends on your crew.  Fingers will shine.

*Take Prisoner; Gremlin Crier and Iron Skeeter strike again! If they are still alive at the end of the game that is.This scheme really depends on your opponent's crew, and Obey.

Take One For The Team might not be too shabby with Brewmaster. Obeys and Swills can control the board somewhat.