Hunting Down Nicodem

[H4ml3t]

So the opponent I play most often and who I'm most evenly matched with is a Resser player who often runs Nico. By focusing on Strats and Schemes and being careful to set up fights on my terms I do fine  against Nico but I'm starting to think about how to get him murdered by let's say Turn 2. 

Assume this as the game: 

Deployment: Standard Deployment (7)
Strategy: Symbols of Authority (Masks)
Schemes: 
  * Surround Them (Rams)
  * Undercover Entourage (5)
  * Inescapable Trap (6)
  * Take Prisoner (9)
  * Take One For the Team

Turn 1 Nico will have a great hand thx to Phillip and is unlikely to move outside of his deployment zone and will largely be behind a wall of Undead. By Turn 2 he'll Walk forward once and still have models between me and him. We can go ahead and assume I'll be getting out activated.

Any ideas on how to pressure/kill him early to really throw my opponent off his game? Thx in advance.

[santaclaws01]

Well the easiest way is to have 6 models deployed From The Shadows between Serena's upgrade and Bad Juju carrying Hexed Among You. Nothing quite like the enemy crew sitting against your deployment zone to apply pressure.

[emiba]

1 hour ago, H4ml3t said:

Strategy: Symbols of Authority (Masks)
Schemes: 
  * Surround Them (Rams)

Just a quick clarification that has nothing to do with the actual topic. The paired scheme always uses the same suit as the strategy. (Unless you've house ruled it of course.) so in this case the paired scheme would be Punish the Weak (I think) rather than Surround them.

Carry on. 

[Vorschlag]

Vs ressurs my go to has become Zoraida swamp fiends with Mctavish.

Mctavish provides extra protection to fiends vs casting and I go for paralyze or rare models so they can't simply resummon them. 

Also the wisps with spawn mother means 2 dolls and a gupps each turn ideally to even out the activations.

Swamp fiends also offer the flexibility of armour, leap and from the shadows.

[Clement]

Plucking Nico out of his pile and murdering him will be tricky.  I'd think you'd get more millage out of Pandora or Zoraida or something else that messes with his WP.   Frustration is realizing that Nico can make all the stats on his minions better except for WP...  WP will always be bad.

 

Ex:  He's built a wall of kickass punk zombies with buffs to slow you down.  Obey one of them to turn around and charge Nico using all his awesome buffs against him.  If he has someone with corpse bloat running around, obey them to use Unforgiving Stench to blow out a mindless zombie and likely a bunch of other models also.  Since it's not an attack, you can keep doing that till the corpse bloater kills everything including themselves.

 

[H4ml3t]

44 minutes ago, emiba said:

Just a quick clarification that has nothing to do with the actual topic. The paired scheme always uses the same suit as the strategy. (Unless you've house ruled it of course.) so in this case the paired scheme would be Punish the Weak (I think) rather than Surround them.

Carry on. 

Crewfaux did that. Oops.

[Haagrum]

Taelor/Miss Deed might also be an option if he's spam-summoning. Activate her early, possibly after a turn-1 push from someone, use her 0 action, and potentially lock down summoning over a reasonable area. "Welcome to Malifaux" isn't once per turn and the charge can be taken even if she's already engaged.

She has 7 Wp, Hard to Kill and Relentless, so is reasonably resilient against casting attacks and difficult to remove or neutralize. She can buy you time to move up and either keep the number of incoming summons down or keep them out of her charge threat area.

[Ludvig]

@Haagrum

She doesn't ignore models or blocking terrai in the way though so if a single resser model walks up to touch her base she can't charge in that general direction for the rest of the turn.

So far I'm realy liking the obey to exlode his own corpses or obeying syuff like slice and dice on a punk to cause damage with his own buffs and deplete his corpse reserve.

[Joachim]

On 31/01/2018 at 12:55 AM, Vorschlag said:

Vs ressurs my go to has become Zoraida swamp fiends with Mctavish.

Mctavish provides extra protection to fiends vs casting and I go for paralyze or rare models so they can't simply resummon them. 

Also the wisps with spawn mother means 2 dolls and a gupps each turn ideally to even out the activations.

Swamp fiends also offer the flexibility of armour, leap and from the shadows.

I actually played zoraida into ressers last night and I got matched against Nico. 

I brought McTavish, bad juju and the hooded rider, since it was interference with quite some killy schemes (dtg, hunting party and quick murder).

 

They did pretty well, though they got bogged down in mindless zombies. Zoraida actually performed great in picking off his henchmen. It's pretty easy for her to hem and bewitch/obey stuff like asura roten and sybelle. 

The hooded rider is great for murdering things a bit later in the game. Min 5 damage deals with a summoned hanged easily, and if I wouldn't have forgotten to announce the upgrade switch at the start of my activation I would have killed the valedictorian outright with 2 5 damage hits.

 

All in all, I found that having several pieces that can hit his crew early (McTavish, hooded rider, zoraida and doll) put a lot of strain on his resources. He actually decided to keep his high cards and stones for summons, but that meant that I could pretty much ensure hitting anything in his crew. I could almost kill asura roten turn 1, and kill sybelle easily turn 2. Hem --> poisoned fate --> bewitch, obey, charge the voodoo doll and kill yourself, tyvm.

 

[Haagrum]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@Haagrum

She doesn't ignore models or blocking terrai in the way though so if a single resser model walks up to touch her base she can't charge in that general direction for the rest of the turn.

So far I'm realy liking the obey to exlode his own corpses or obeying syuff like slice and dice on a punk to cause damage with his own buffs and deplete his corpse reserve.

That's true, but if she moves early, and the concern is blocking off summoning, she forces the opponent to divert resources to simply holding her up - which can probably be exploited as it'll likely mean having to over-extend and getting models into dangerous spots.

In any case, the Neverborn aren't short of tricks to work around that counter. Pushes, Lures, Obeying it out of the way, Show Ya The Door, or just killing the offending model - there are options galore.

[Joachim]

29 minutes ago, Haagrum said:

or just killing the offending model - there are options galore.

I think for neverborn that is indeed a good option, and any neverborn crew should probably have several models that can bring the pain fast.

[Angelshard]

Titania with royal indignation and audience can tank most of his crew and place his screen away, opening a charge lane to him.

[nishi]

1 hour ago, Angelshard said:

Titania with royal indignation and audience can tank most of his crew and place his screen away, opening a charge lane to him.

this plus 2 from the shadows Cyclops to blast burn Nicos clump. Still requires unhealthy amount of setup.

[Vorschlag]

I think Joachim hit the nail on the head, you dont need to "necessarily" target Nicodem at least early turns.

"If" you can more easily target important assets in his list.

This is the approach I take against elite crews more the summoners but taking out key parts of someones machine will either burn their handers or hamper their engine.

So taking out his important henchmen, enforcers and even purpose hired/summoned minions "may" get a similar result.

[shakes1066]

2 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

I think Joachim hit the nail on the head, you dont need to "necessarily" target Nicodem at least early turns.

"If" you can more easily target important assets in his list

If you play against a good Nico player they rarely need those important pieces after the first couple of turns. It is in fact what I have found to be the quickest way to lose vs Nico. 

If you spend the first couple of turns killing those the Nico player will be in a good enough position to go on and win the game. It is something I have been thinking about a lot at the moment because killing Nico turn one or two is almost the only way you are going to beat a competitive Nico player. 

I’m trying a summoning aggressive Pandora list and we will see how it gets on in the next couple of months vs Nico

[Vorschlag]

If your assertion was accurate, objective and factual it would be more visable on the international level.

There are stirrings against nicodem but he isnt attracting the same level of attention as some of the problem masters....yet (as far as my limited interest in international metas are concerned.)

Since this isn't warmachine or hordes I hope we don't get to the level where kill the master in the first two turns or lose is an accurate portrayal of the game.

If however you are simply suggesting that it is harder to force a good player to burn their summoning assets out then I whole heartedly agree.

So that simply returns us to the problem of look for ways to make every action a threat to his economy and resources.

Alternatively if indeed you simply believe that summoners in general and the capacity to out activate your opponent are the issue then we do have a few options which we can attempt to match activation with.

My preference is ussually Zoraida.

Zoraida, wisps spawn mother build is 3 extra actvations a turn, add weaver to make it 4-5 but that is a limiting build.

[anencephalous]

28 minutes ago, Vorschlag said:

Zoraida, wisps spawn mother build is 3 extra actvations a turn, add weaver to make it 4-5 but that is a limiting build.

How does that work?

 

[Vorschlag]

Copied and pasted from zoraida new and improved.

2 models with fgf, one is the Weaver,  summon a doll it hems, if hem fails it may need to be obeyed to hem again.

Once hemed it activates fails fears given form twice and drops a scrap marker for a wicked doll or save for teddy, while causing 6 damage to the hem target.

Repeat with a wisp for two scrap a turn.

You can still paralyze etc before it activates and dies but this isn't the set up I'd be going for if I wanted conditions  spammed on the doll.

With vasilisa having 2 obey options for the doll and the recent reduction in cost she may become a go to for this.

So you are looking at approximately 1/2 your pool for 2 fgf +Weaver,  handbag, second enforcer or henchman and 2 wisps - 6 activations.

From there I'd be looking at stitched etc to benefit from Weaver and Vasilisa.

Plus when you really need something damaged obeyed stitched or banraku with wicked dolls condition can be nasty and gamble your life is abhorrent against a voodoo doll if you lose a fgf or need something finished immediately.

Alternatively if you are going for raw activation control run this with a third wisp and the spawn mother then hope for crows.

You may need to use the spawn mother as the second fgf holder and drop vasilisa for something like juju but I'd be weary of feeling like a mixed bag doing this if I went with anything outside of bayou and dolls.

[shakes1066]

3 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

 

Alternatively if indeed you simply believe that summoners in general and the capacity to out activate your opponent are the issue then we do have a few options which we can attempt to match activationw with.

 

No in general I do not believe this to be the case, I’m happy to play Ramos, Somer etc and beat them by removing key models early on. 

The problem with Nico is he has such a tool box for summoning and crafts an amazing hand every turn. If you allow him to get to turn three without making an effort to put pressure directly on him he will have all the answers. 

[Vorschlag]

If this is the case hopefully the issue will show in international results and an errata will occur. 

[anencephalous]

5 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Copied and pasted from zoraida new and improved.

2 models with fgf, one is the Weaver,  summon a doll it hems, if hem fails it may need to be obeyed to hem again.

Once hemed it activates fails fears given form twice and drops a scrap marker for a wicked doll or save for teddy, while causing 6 damage to the hem target.

Repeat with a wisp for two scrap a turn.

You can still paralyze etc before it activates and dies but this isn't the set up I'd be going for if I wanted conditions  spammed on the doll.

With vasilisa having 2 obey options for the doll and the recent reduction in cost she may become a go to for this.

So you are looking at approximately 1/2 your pool for 2 fgf +Weaver,  handbag, second enforcer or henchman and 2 wisps - 6 activations.

From there I'd be looking at stitched etc to benefit from Weaver and Vasilisa.

Plus when you really need something damaged obeyed stitched or banraku with wicked dolls condition can be nasty and gamble your life is abhorrent against a voodoo doll if you lose a fgf or need something finished immediately.

Alternatively if you are going for raw activation control run this with a third wisp and the spawn mother then hope for crows.

You may need to use the spawn mother as the second fgf holder and drop vasilisa for something like juju but I'd be weary of feeling like a mixed bag doing this if I went with anything outside of bayou and dolls.

I have seen that before, but that is 2 wicked dolls a turn from Handbag + Widow Weaver. You said "Zoraida, wisps spawn mother build is 3 extra actvations a turn" and then "add weaver to make it 4-5". Max I can see is two Wicked Dolls and a Gupp, including Widow Weaver. And even then the Wisp action (1/turn) is competing for Voodoo Dolls and Spawning eggs. How do you hit five? 

 

 

[Patzer]

Lilith with Wings and prim magic (for cards), plus whatever you like, and Tannen. Tannen's leave it to luck can boost Lilith's tangle by 2. By turn 1-2, with a 13mask or rj will get you nico into your crew. 

[Saduhem]

When I play Nicodem the thing that seems to hurt me the most is when the opponent picks schemes that can be done quickly and do them right away. I usually go for the long game with Nicodem as my initial crew, Archie being the exception, is just there to get my summoning running. Unless you kill Nico, everything else you kill in my engine still gives me corpse markers which will turn into more AP than what were spent to kill my dudes. Honestly, killing Mortimer turn 2 after he's already likely activated and given me 4-5 corpse markers isn't a big deal. Killing Nico is even worse, it takes a LOT of effort to put him down unless the player lets it happen. He's also strongest in that bubble around him where everything has positives to defense and MI. Unless you can Zipp him off the table with some Shenanigans like in the recent UK Masters, I am not sure that's the best approach. 

Now, if your alpha strike is MASSIVE like you could get with the Viks or Misaki, then yeah, half the crew is obliterated. But that would be the same against every master so I would not count that as anti-Nico tech.

Also, I feel that I'm more vulnerable at the beginning of every turn before Philip and the Nanny cycle cards and I'm able to Muahahaha to draw from mindless zombies. That also dictates my activation order.

I'm  not sure that "Kill Nico" or "Kill his engine" are the right approaches. I think the best way is score yours early when Nico is setting up, deny the rest of the game. At least that is what's more effective against me.

[Ludvig]

10 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

I'm  not sure that "Kill Nico" or "Kill his engine" are the right approaches. I think the best way is score yours early when Nico is setting up, deny the rest of the game. At least that is what's more effective against me.

Most schemes score incrementally now so it's pretty much impossible to just put in 5 or 6VP turn 2 and keep a lead like you used to be able to do. These days you need to keep models for scoring turns 2 to 4 in most pools. That basically leaves kill Nico turn 1, maybe turn 2 or you have lost the game. I may be slightly exaggerating but not too much I think.

[Vorschlag]

5 hours ago, anencephalous said:

I have seen that before, but that is 2 wicked dolls a turn from Handbag + Widow Weaver. You said "Zoraida, wisps spawn mother build is 3 extra actvations a turn" and then "add weaver to make it 4-5". Max I can see is two Wicked Dolls and a Gupp, including Widow Weaver. And even then the Wisp action (1/turn) is competing for Voodoo Dolls and Spawning eggs. How do you hit five? 

2 wicked dolls from the scrap -means weaver is doing nothing but summon and fgf aura, may need to burn occassionally.

2 vodoo dolls one from zoraida one from a wisp - they sponge an activation and die.

1 gupp summoned by a second wisp aslong as you have the card for it.

Requires spawn mother, ideally 3 wisps, weaver and fill your boots depending on build.