Zipp wins UK Masters gg2018

[PositronMike]

3 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I wonder whether Brin really works well against NB. He is so very squishy and NB are pretty good at projecting violence into specific parts of the battlefield. Have you seen him used?

Brin helps in the games I have used him. He can be annoying due to his aura which means that people will then need to divert something to attack him that hits against DF. I am still playing around with him but I think he has a place against Neverborn and Ressers.

[Clement]

1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

book 5 we got Dreaded pirate zip / Mah got something( Zip does the same stuff she can do but better)

Not saying Zipp isn't clearly better in like 80% of situations, but Mah *can* do something Zipp can't...  interact.

I ran her in Symbols of Authority and in a single turn she pushed 14 inches, cleared a marker, then ran toward the enemy deployment zone to score Covert breakthrough.

So between the two, for me, it comes down to asking "Do I need my super solo to take interact actions?"

[daniello_s]

8 minutes ago, Clement said:

Not saying Zipp isn't clearly better in like 80% of situations, but Mah *can* do something Zipp can't...  interact.

I ran her in Symbols of Authority and in a single turn she pushed 14 inches, cleared a marker, then ran toward the enemy deployment zone to score Covert breakthrough.

So between the two, for me, it comes down to asking "Do I need my super solo to take interact actions?"

Mah is very mobile but her mobility depends on other models around and LOS blockers/impassable terrain while Zipp laughs at these problems. They are both good though.

[PolishSausage]

Mah needs a DF/WP trigger instead of the silly "kill a gremlin that fails ML attack"

I would love to see Lynch like DF trigger on her ( if you cheat you take damage) or when failing, she gets to hit you back.

 

Also if her CA push went to 6 so that we can use her to push enemies around to dictate strats and schemes ( not broken since there are CA7 obeys out there)

 

Those 2 changes would make her much better and let her have a comfortable "niche" in gremlins.

[trikk]

2 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Mah needs a DF/WP trigger instead of the silly "kill a gremlin that fails ML attack"

I would love to see Lynch like DF trigger on her ( if you cheat you take damage) or when failing, she gets to hit you back.

 

Also if her CA push went to 6 so that we can use her to push enemies around to dictate strats and schemes ( not broken since there are CA7 obeys out there)

 

Those 2 changes would make her much better and let her have a comfortable "niche" in gremlins.

Guess Df6, 12 Wds, Dirty Cheater and Armor aren`t enough

[edopersichetti]

5 hours ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I think that they are ok as well. But I can see people thinking that they are not and I don't think that these tournament results prove things one way or another.

And yeah, typoed, meant Wave 5. Mah has definitely gotten a lot of love lately (her amazing new Upgrades, Wrestlers, and the new cheap Survivors).

I wonder whether Brin really works well against NB. He is so very squishy and NB are pretty good at projecting violence into specific parts of the battlefield. Have you seen him used?

I used him in my Ophelia crew - and it happened to be against Nvb (a murderous crew with Zoraida + Nekima + Doppelganger etc.). You have to be careful but if you can keep him safe he'll do good. In fact, funnily enough, he was one of the few models *not* murdered by my opponent (Frank and Ophelia herself died, for instance) and I have to say, my opponent was scared as hell of his condition removal (we were playing Public Executions).

That being said, Df 4 is ghastly and he dies to a breeze if the opponent puts enough energies into it - that meant, for me, that he didn't even cross the centerline before I managed to remove Nekima from the equation

I also think his main problem is that *all* of his abilities are very short range (6 or 8) and so they need him to be close to the action - much closer than he'd like.

Dunno, he can be useful but very high rish-high reward...so yeah, very much Gremlin style

[PolishSausage]

31 minutes ago, trikk said:

Guess Df6, 12 Wds, Dirty Cheater and Armor aren`t enough

Let me tell you what a Fast 1ap charge recall training Yasunori will do to you.

[trikk]

23 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Let me tell you what a Fast 1ap charge recall training Yasunori will do to you.

Thats a pretty bad example because he kills a lot of non-Gremlin masters. Guess Lucius and Sonnia and McCabe and Mah and Brewmaster and Zoraida and Lynch and Misaki and........ should also have it.

 

Its not a problem with Mah. Its a problem with Yasunori IMHO.

 

41 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

I used him in my Ophelia crew - and it happened to be against Nvb (a murderous crew with Zoraida + Nekima + Doppelganger etc.). You have to be careful but if you can keep him safe he'll do good. In fact, funnily enough, he was one of the few models *not* murdered by my opponent (Frank and Ophelia herself died, for instance) and I have to say, my opponent was scared as hell of his condition removal (we were playing Public Executions).

That being said, Df 4 is ghastly and he dies to a breeze if the opponent puts enough energies into it - that meant, for me, that he didn't even cross the centerline before I managed to remove Nekima from the equation

I also think his main problem is that *all* of his abilities are very short range (6 or 8) and so they need him to be close to the action - much closer than he'd like.

Dunno, he can be useful but very high rish-high reward...so yeah, very much Gremlin style

He`s 7 stones tho. So it doesn`t seem that steep of a price.

[Psientologist]

To add further confusion for you guys, it was UK Masters not Polish Masters but Lukas, the new Master, is Polish.

[PolishSausage]

52 minutes ago, trikk said:

Thats a pretty bad example because he kills a lot of non-Gremlin masters. Guess Lucius and Sonnia and McCabe and Mah and Brewmaster and Zoraida and Lynch and Misaki and........ should also have it.

So:

Lucious in guild can go up to df9 with Franc @ has trigger to pawn attacks to friendlies

Mccabe can go up to DF9 in guild or misdirect in thunders

Brewmaster can misdirect in thunders or UGH... trixi win initiative and swill 3x times ( not so good in gremlins)

Misaki can misdirect in thunders and go HTK + marleena in outcasts.

Lynch can Misdirect in thunders. He can also setup "cooler" from tannen behind to prevent excessive cheating- so can any thunders.

Zoraida has to pray to get moderate or severed to stop extra attacks.

Sonia can go to DF8 ? Don't remember if you can +2 the DF stat on top of Franc +2

 

Gremlins can take stilts/ but Mah has upgrade problems in needing many of them to function.

[daniello_s]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

He`s 7 stones tho. So it doesn`t seem that steep of a price.

I would pay 8 for him if range of his actions/Df was bit bigger. Now he can be easily picked by even minions with low attack stat and i dont mean being killed straight away but rather relentlessly pounded bit by bit.

[PolishSausage]

14 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

I would pay 8 for him if range of his actions/Df was bit bigger. Now he can be easily picked by even minions with low attack stat and i dont mean being killed straight away but rather relentlessly pounded bit by bit.

+1

 

Most of our models have Poopy stats because of the "they are cheaper" reasoning. Usually the difference between our models and other faction comparable (better stated )guys is 1ss

Especially now when looking at Burt/Frank/Stuffed piglet SS increase needs to have comparable stat bump here or there.

[green-n-dumb]

Can someone please explain why in all lists there are Old Major and Student of Conflict?

[PolishSausage]

Heh, 

No Idea... Its UK

[Adran]

8 hours ago, green-n-dumb said:

Can someone please explain why in all lists there are Old Major and Student of Conflict?

I guess master AP was considered critical. Using a Skeetar to move the student and making it fast makes it much easier for it to keep up with what ever else you want fast. 

I can't tell you exactly what Lucas did with them, but its nice to see the internet wisdom shown wrong on occasions, might encourage more people to experiment with different combinations. 

[Dogmantra]

I feel quite vindicated since I have been a student fan for quite some time

[Zebo]

On 30/1/2018 at 9:27 AM, daniello_s said:

In Polish tournament there were 5 Gremlin players. Second player was placed 14th and the rest 20+ so it doesn't look that Gremlins dominated this event. It looks more that player who won knew what he is doing and didn't do many mistakes. Plus he used one thing which is very strong with Mah - Survivors. Their attack is MI which can be change to range attack keeping MI status and as we know Mah can nicely bump MI stats so over the sudden we have very solid, cheap shooting platform but it works with one master only. BTW, I was going to use this trick in the coming tournament myself

Congrats to him once again but remember, one swallow doesn’t make a summer. 

Sooo gremlin scored 1, 14, 20, 24 and 26.

NB scored 3, 19, 23, 25, 27 and 28. Quite worse than Gremlin, I supose them neither dominated.

Only two Guild players, 4 and 15 (worse than the first and second gremlin). No domination here.

Acanist achieved 5, 11, 12, 13 and 21. Four arcanist between first and second gremlin, but the best was fifth, and the rest out of top 10. It's not like arcanist sweeped the board.

TT was 6, 7, 10 and 22.

Resser 8, 9, 16, 17 and 18

 

It's almost like good players make the difference more than if they are playing with or without Gremlins.

[Lokibri]

On 1.2.2018 at 1:26 AM, green-n-dumb said:

Can someone please explain why in all lists there are Old Major and Student of Conflict?

Well, my guess is the ability to give old major reactivate and carry someone around with saddle while having a nice damage spread.

Having Zipp and especially Pere Ravage leads to numerous cards being cheated or being thrown away because of Zipps constant yammering. While Nicodem is card hungry with his cards in need for summoning stuff. Also, he draws a lot of cards it can still be wirth. Old Major oftentimes is seen as "ulix only and that`s it" which is a very strange perspective. Just don`t keep in mind that he comes with the ulix box and take a look at his stats and the option to use "the old pig knows the way" to give you just the little bit of extra movement to successfully Alpha the opponent. Old Major is a great model!

[daniello_s]

22 hours ago, Zebo said:

Sooo gremlin scored 1, 14, 20, 24 and 26.

NB scored 3, 19, 23, 25, 27 and 28. Quite worse than Gremlin, I supose them neither dominated.

Only two Guild players, 4 and 15 (worse than the first and second gremlin). No domination here.

Acanist achieved 5, 11, 12, 13 and 21. Four arcanist between first and second gremlin, but the best was fifth, and the rest out of top 10. It's not like arcanist sweeped the board.

TT was 6, 7, 10 and 22.

Resser 8, 9, 16, 17 and 18

 

It's almost like good players make the difference more than if they are playing with or without Gremlins.

Indeed and I don't know why so many people are advocating that Gremlins are (were) too strong and should be cuddled which resulted in changes for Burt (IMO justified), Franc and McTavish (these two I'm not sure if were justified but it is only my opinion) and still are saying that some models are too strong. I recommend to read Omenbringer's post. It is good recap of the current Gremlin discussion:

 

[PolishSausage]

Going back to the 2018 Errata, the bigger issue was not that we got nerfed on our good stuff ( again)

Its because that other faction "over achievers" that have been in the top tier to near broken have been left as is.

Francisco / Doppelganger / Stitched all deserved a 1ss increase for years now. Their faction outcry would have been deafening. 

 

We just need to be more vocal as a community to get "our way". You can literally throw out book 3 and 5 from our arsenal and be just as competitive in tournaments.

 

Respectfully,

Tilted Gremlin

[Adran]

4 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Going back to the 2018 Errata, the bigger issue was not that we got nerfed on our good stuff ( again)

Its because that other faction "over achievers" that have been in the top tier to near broken have been left as is.

Francisco / Doppelganger / Stitched all deserved a 1ss increase for years now. Their faction outcry would have been deafening. 

 

We just need to be more vocal as a community to get "our way". You can literally throw out book 3 and 5 from our arsenal and be just as competitive in tournaments.

 

Respectfully,

Tilted Gremlin

Is there something that makes Gremlin players feel more hard done by than any other faction?  ( I have read the shouting from the nerfing of the dreamer, leviticus, colette and Francisco and they were large but I don't think as persistent and as spread out)

I've actually just  gone and looked at all the errata since M2E started, and Gremlins don't have the most nerfs, the highest percentage of nerfs or the fewest buffs. 

That said, yes, be vocal. I imagine that it would be most effective by taking part in beta testing and writing up battle reports. 

 

 

 

[PolishSausage]

Most factions that received a nerf got some form of a buff to balance it out ( majority of the faction did not get nerfed at all)

The models that were nerfed on our end were our reliable melee hitters and reliable range shooter.

(stat of 6 on attack for us is high priced due to lack of 7's in faction/ or natural weak of 3's on damage)

 

 

What we got in returned were discounts on models that were over costed to begin with.

Most of these over costed models were not taken in-faction mainly not for the price tag that they came with but rather lack of internal synergy with the crew.

As a result majority of these models will still not be taken simply because of that.

[Lucidicide]

Arcanists (14)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 5

Gremlins (15)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 6

Guild (14)

• Buffed: 12
• Nerfed: 2

Neverborn (11)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 2

Outcasts (14)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 5

Resurrectionists (10)

• Buffed: 7
• Nerfed: 3

Ten Thunders (11)

• Buffed: 7
• Nerfed: 4

 

 

In total, 27 models were nerfed, of which Gremlins were 22%. If every Faction were nerfed equally, it'd be about 14%. They only had one more model nerfed than 2 Factions (Arcanists and Outcasts). In terms of buffs, there were 62 buffs, of which Gremlins were 14.5%.

So, the Gremlins have had slightly more nerfs than other Factions but are on par for buffs. That said, if I nerf one model in Outcasts or Arcanists, they are tied, exactly, with the Gremlins. I think that's a stretch to say Gremlins have been more picked on. They are really close in line to two of the Factions, which means that 3 out of 7 are right in line. Considering that it's unlikely the Factions had an equal number of things out of whack, this is about what I'd expect.

Obviously Gremlin players don't like some of the choices that were made. All I can say is that things go into playtesting. Models in new books do, as do errata changes.

[WWHSD]

9 hours ago, daniello_s said:

Indeed and I don't know why so many people are advocating that Gremlins are (were) too strong and should be cuddled which resulted in changes for Burt (IMO justified), Franc and McTavish (these two I'm not sure if were justified but it is only my opinion) and still are saying that some models are too strong.

Burt and McTavish got hit for the same reason that Johan and the Friekorps Trapper did. Their native factions now pay what everyone else was willing to pay for them and everyone else pays more for them. They were all mercs that were becoming crew staples outside of their native factions which tends to mean that they might have been a bit undercosted. 

[WWHSD]

1 minute ago, Aaron said:

Arcanists (14)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 5

Gremlins (15)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 6

Guild (14)

• Buffed: 12
• Nerfed: 2

Neverborn (11)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 2

Outcasts (14)

• Buffed: 9
• Nerfed: 5

Resurrectionists (10)

• Buffed: 7
• Nerfed: 3

Ten Thunders (11)

• Buffed: 7
• Nerfed: 4

 

 

In total, 27 models were nerfed, of which Gremlins were 22%. If every Faction were nerfed equally, it'd be about 14%. They only had one more model nerfed than 2 Factions (Arcanists and Outcasts). In terms of buffs, there were 62 buffs, of which Gremlins were 14.5%.

So, the Gremlins have had slightly more nerfs than other Factions but are on par for buffs. That said, if I nerf one model in Outcasts or Arcanists, they are tied, exactly, with the Gremlins. I think that's a stretch to say Gremlins have been more picked on. They are really close in line to two of the Factions, which means that 3 out of 7 are right in line. Considering that it's unlikely the Factions had an equal number of things out of whack, this is about what I'd expect.

Obviously Gremlin players don't like some of the choices that were made. All I can say is that things go into playtesting. Models in new books do, as do errata changes.

Did you count Johan as an Arcanist nerf? You probably should.