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Are Raptors a liability in Ply for Information?

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I was playing a Marcus crew into Ply for Information the other day and had a Raptor and Jackalope in my crew. It didn't take long for me to realize that there was anything that these models could do that would be worth giving my opponent an easy target to get the Gathered Information condition from. Am I wrong in thinking that any Peon that can't do what you brought it for from range is just a liability in this strategy?

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Peons are pretty much boned in gg18. Marcus might use a raptor to turn someone into a beast but that's abput it, the PP change made them pretty corner case. They still annoy people in interference of course (which is in the official gg18 rotstion so might pop up).

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33 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Peons are pretty much boned in gg18. Marcus might use a raptor to turn someone into a beast but that's abput it, the PP change made them pretty corner case. They still annoy people in interference of course (which is in the official gg18 rotstion so might pop up).

I typically use them to tie up or block block enemy models but that doesn't seem worthwhile to do now that they make great targets for Ply.

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14 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I typically use them to tie up or block block enemy models but that doesn't seem worthwhile to do now that they make great targets for Ply.

I guess you have to decide if giving a beater an easy ply is worth denying it much else. I may well do so, hope the raptor survives the 1 attack against it  and then focus with it to try and remove the ply. Obviously this doesn't work as well when multiple models engage you. 

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Yeah I think the PP nerf plus the smaller chance of seeing Interference in the pool has retired the Raptor from play more often than not. Which is ok, lord and lady knows it had a good run. I wouldn't melt it down though as there will possibly be a case it comes back into play. The Raptor does have a powerful ability to deny and tie up sniper and support models in the backfield and is pretty darn cheap. One day that eagle may soar again. For now, stock up on Enforcers, Henchmen and your toughest minions and go to town.

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It still has options to block supply wagon interacts, and deny Punish the weak. It will probably see a little table time, but not a lot, which is probably about right for a 3 ss peon. 

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Well, I had great success with it actually in ply, but that was mostly because my opponent was playing seamus and i jumped around with it so it could constantly stare at seamus preventing him from backalleying. Also in ressurectionist McM its good because it gives easy surround them with forgotten marshall. other than that i don't think it will see much play.

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Even though practised production has been nerfed, remember it is still possible to drop markers with them in a grab and drop Kaeris crew. They would still count as peons for ply for information though.

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16 hours ago, Spyrer said:

Well, I had great success with it actually in ply, but that was mostly because my opponent was playing seamus and i jumped around with it so it could constantly stare at seamus preventing him from backalleying. Also in ressurectionist McM its good because it gives easy surround them with forgotten marshall. other than that i don't think it will see much play.

Can't Seamus instant kill them with a single weak hit? 

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Can't Seamus instant kill them with a single weak hit? 

Only if he isn't engaged

 

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I'm trying to think of a way to make raptors work in a campaign but I'm struggling to motivate a model that can't interact.

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You can promote them in campaigns. I can't remember if you can remove insignifigant, but makign them a minion will still allow all the PP tricks and so forth. 

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5 hours ago, Adran said:

You can promote them in campaigns. I can't remember if you can remove insignifigant, but makign them a minion will still allow all the PP tricks and so forth. 

I don't think it will. Practiced Production requires that its target be both non-peon and non-insignificant. 

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1 minute ago, WWHSD said:

I don't think it will. Practiced Production requires that its target be both non-peon and non-insignificant. 

Cheers. I will learn the changes eventually. OK, then its just the normal cheap insignificant minion uses then. Useful to throw off turf war style maths and virtually garentee you a minion in the place you need it each turn. I'd do it, but that doesn't say much as to its actual competitive use...

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13 minutes ago, Adran said:

Cheers. I will learn the changes eventually. OK, then its just the normal cheap insignificant minion uses then. Useful to throw off turf war style maths and virtually garentee you a minion in the place you need it each turn. I'd do it, but that doesn't say much as to its actual competitive use...

My concern with the Raptor (and other Peons) was whether or not they were something to straight up avoid if Ply for Information is the strategy and not a question about their general usefulness. The cheap activation as well as being able to put the Raptor next to something to tie it up is normally worth the 3SS to me. In Ply this use doesn't really work and will likely end up costing you VP. 

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For me we are one of the worst cheaper activations factions, with PP out the Raptor sux, the new Guard for 3ss is really op in the same cost, the last tournament @Linar used 4 of them, and in pairs with Df6, wd5 and armor it was a real pain for me. Imagine Gamins only cost 3ss...

In the other hand Hound can Interact of go in pairs, now, Raptors are really bad, I think need one rule like Hounds to shine.

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2 hours ago, Fictor said:

For me we are one of the worst cheaper activations factions

I did notice that, this is also why, in ranking factions post, among arcanists imo, i put on top colette and sandeep for gg2018

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57 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

I did notice that, this is also why, in ranking factions post, among arcanists imo, i put on top colette and sandeep for gg2018

Colette is somewhat widely considered to be pretty garbage since her nerf and I don't think her doves make up the difference, especially after the PP nerf. I can't imagine her rivalling Sandeep, considering he does almost everything she does but better. Marcus is generally considered great, and he can hire hounds so he can get activations if necessary, and he is very strong besides them. If you're desperate for activations you can do better than Colette IMO.

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12 hours ago, Jinn said:

... Marcus is generally considered great, and he can hire hounds so he can get activations if necessary...

In fact my Alpha list have 4 Hounds, for 3ss are so much better than Raptors, i think they must do something because PP nerf was an indiret Raptors big nerf (yes, before it was broken but now are so bad, middle term please).

The other masters must has cheaper options too (out summons).

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15 hours ago, Jinn said:

Colette is somewhat widely considered to be pretty garbage since her nerf and I don't think her doves make up the difference, especially after the PP nerf. I can't imagine her rivalling Sandeep, considering he does almost everything she does but better. Marcus is generally considered great, and he can hire hounds so he can get activations if necessary, and he is very strong besides them. If you're desperate for activations you can do better than Colette IMO.

I respect your opinion, also it's a very short time that i play with arcanists after a period with neverborn, so i'm the first to admit that i don't even know arcanists as you all.

But i read new strategies and i don't think colette is so horryble; it's not just a matter of cheaper activations;

3 of 5  strategies are based on interact actions in which colette excels; for example: just think about strategies like ply for information or or sybols of authority.. and you play colette with some moleman; with disapp. act you can deliver them wherever you want on the table! take condition from an enemy or remove one marker and leave again..it seems to me strong!

this is just one example.

I noticed also that often some players have a tendency to consider garbage some masters only because are rarely used by other players; it's obvious! it's easier start to play and win with perdita (edit: i wrote perdita but i could also wrote lilith or reva, in short, masters more immediate, at least at the beggining)  than colette! But i also think that there aren't super-terrible masters and super-op masters, and i feel like wyrd want to work to level out difference between masters. 

(i had heard, before errata, that wyrd thought to change promp of colette, enabling to do it repeatedely only on showgirl models. probably, after, they realize that was too powerful..but  in that i see interest to improve all masters level in this)

i may be wrong but i would give a chance to Colette.

edit: with this, i don't want to say that Marcus is weak, with his pool of beasts neither him will have problems with new strategies

Now i don't know what i wrote, and i apologize for errors :P so i hope you understand what i wanted to write

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Colette could repeat prompt any model (even a paralyzed one before that got errata) any number of times. A fast Howard Langston prompted four or so times from Colette and Cassandra was a pretty standard play. Pretty much impossible to stay out of range and the pushes would let him squash several models in a turn even if the opponent spread out. The toolkit would often boost his attacks so he was very likely to succeed with the attacks.

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18 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Colette could repeat prompt any model (even a paralyzed one before that got errata) any number of times. A fast Howard Langston prompted four or so times from Colette and Cassandra was a pretty standard play. Pretty much impossible to stay out of range and the pushes would let him squash several models in a turn even if the opponent spread out. The toolkit would often boost his attacks so he was very likely to succeed with the attacks.

i remember this thing, and i also remeber well my models falling in battle (to quote an old poet) "we are as in autumn on branches the leaves":(:huh::mellow:

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I was actually pretty successful with Colette in Ply for Information and some of the new Schemes. I just played a game against McCabe with the following pool:

Deployment: Standard Deployment (7)
Strategy: Ply for Information (Rams)
Schemes:
* Surround Them (Rams) (McCabe)
* Set Up (3) (Colette: Yasunori)
* Inescapable Trap (6) (Colette)
* Recover Evidence (11)
* Vendetta (12) (McCabe)

This was my list:

50 SS Arcanists Crew
Colette Du Bois + 5 Pool
- The Dancing Blade (1)
- Arcane Reservoir (2)
- Practiced Production (1)
Carlos Vasquez (9)
- Stunt Double (0)
- Warding Runes (1)
Oxfordian Mage (5)
- Nemesis Ward (0)
- Temporary Shielding (0)
Oxfordian Mage (5)
- Blood Ward (0)
- Temporary Shielding (0)
Oxfordian Mage (5)
- Doom Ward (0)
- Temporary Shielding (0)
Performer (5)
Performer (5)
Arcane Effigy (4)
Mannequin (4)

His list (as far as I remember, not sure about the upgrades):
50 SS Ten Thunders Crew
McCabe + 3 Pool
- Cloak of Invisibility (1)
- Strangemetal Shirt (1)
- Loot Bag (1)
Luna (4)
Yamaziko (6)
Yasunori (13)
- Recalled Training (1)
Samurai (8)
Terracotta Warrior (5)
Guild Hound (3)
Guild Hound (3)
Guild Hound (3)

- I knew Yasunori would come to me eventually so this was the perfect choice for Set Up. Also Inescapable Trap was a natural choice where I would use my scheme markers in combination with the Perfomers Sirens Calls and the pushes from the Mages to get enemy models where I wanted them to be.
- I suspected he would probably choose Vendetta on Carlos and use the hounds to get Surround Them (I was right ;)).  So buffing Carlos with Warding Runes from the Mages seemed to be a good idea.
- Colette with prompts and Dancing Sabre to give out slow with the possibility of the Mages also giving slow seemed to be a good support for me as well as counter against my opponent wrt. the strategy.

So this is how it went:

- Turn 1 I plastered my deployment zone and its surroundings with scheme markers with the help of the Mannequin and Colette's 0 interact aura. I had 10 markers down at the end of turn 1.
- Turn 2 I used Sirens Call and Mage pushes to move the Samurai and a Hound near my markers to get Inescapable trap. Yasunori was charging into one of my mages and killed it but I scored 3 points for Set Up. We tied for Gathered Intel.
- Turn 3 Colette slowed Yasunori (and handed out some burning from the Effigy) and got Gathered Intel from him and one of the lured hounds and I could score again for Inescapable trap. He scored Vendetta by charing Yamaziko into Carlos. I brought her down to 1 wound with 2 burning on her before from the Mages but she prevented the burning damage with a Soulstone at the end of turn 2. I scored for Gathered Intel as well. Carlos pushed out of combat with Yamaziko and charged into Yasunori and finished him with the help of the Mannequin.
- Turn 4 and 5 went on with me slowing his models and scoring for Ply. 

So all in all a perfect pool for Colette. I still really like her and I think she is a really good choice for Ply in general.

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Sounds like really solid play on your part and a bit of a mistake on your opponent's part to not assume Yas was a likely setup target with all those markers out.

Glad to hear Colette is doing well!

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