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Do I even Neverborn, bruh?


never born again

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I've been playing Malifaux for over a year or so. I play Neverborn. Right from the beginning they were the faction for me. The models are the most interesting and monsters are always more fun. I play every master and I've used almost every model. I read the forums, I build my lists appropriately, I feel like I understand the game pretty well. But. I lose. Constantly. To everyone and in almost every situation. I'm in a slow grow tournament right now and I've just had my butt handed to me again and again. It's like I have this insane ability to pick the worst match ups every game. Is it just me? Does anyone else experience a lot of bad match ups as Neverborn? I feel like, as a faction, they have a lot of weaknesses. Low defense, no armor, not a lot of ways to deal with range, not many heals or healers, no condition removal. Most of what I find myself going up against, lots of range, blast markers, burning etc, as basic game mechanics are just a hell of a lot stronger than what the Neverborn appear to have going for them. I'm at a loss. I feel like I don't know how to play my faction. What are the Neverborns real strengths and how do I capitalize on them? 

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Neverborn isn't really a faction you can play straight forward, you have to know how to pick your engagements and force your opponent to fight on your terms.

 

Without seeing how you play and your lists it's hard to give more specific advice. I'd recommend reading battle reports by neverborn players to see what they're doing or making your own battle reports and try to be extra detailed and ask what people think you should have done differently.

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ive used MTG to describe the way neverborn play. my favorite description is as if you were running a combo/control deck, you have to know when to play the pieces to win the game. that being said, most of neverborn usually needs some support from at least one other model unless it is doing something specific like an insidious madness dedicated to fulfilling schemes that require scheme markers. 

our beaters are usually somewhat squishy and need some sort of healing/other support, like 2 teddies or a teddy/kade running around. alone they can get focused down, but if they both pose threats then your opponent has to choose.

but how you build your list depends on the schemes/strat. having a beater list in a pool of scheme heavy strat/scheme is usually a bad idea and vice-versa.

if you have any previous miniature gaming exp., that can help. as can any RTS you may have played on pc/console.

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I am not a master jedi (not yet, hovewer I won recent local league:lol:), but maybe the problem covers in "models job" and their application for strategies and schemes? I mean the key could be the knowledge what every model and their combinations in your crew should do in realities of current strategy and scheme pool. When I build my rosters I try to ask myself what each of my models will do and why they are here. So this helps to have a plan for the game. You already know where you will go with this model, what this model will try to demolish, what is my back up plan if this model won't succeed, etc. Also understanding of schemes and startegies is a must, because we play for points from them. Your crew can be polished from table, but you can have more points and you will win. So we need to know which masters\models are good for the chosen strategy. Same for schemes. There are some that much easier to perform than others for each faction\master. I guess there is schemes tier for NB. The most obvious example - Titania crew and "dig their graves" scheme. You can look at your models and think for which schemes they can be good. At the same time you can think about which combinations of these models can give me a greater positive effect. Next you build roster where you know a duty of each model. This is only a theoretical part of the game, but it should be realised very well for sure. You can be very good at practice, but if you chose bad scheme or you didn't pick some good models for the scheme.. Less points at the end, less chances to win.

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I don't know if it works for you, but I have found that the best way to improve my game in Malifaux or a particular boardgame is to try and focus on one aspect. In particular if you find you don't get enough out of your schemes it might be worth it to try to focus on one of them to see how much effort you need to get it done, so only do things that will contribute to scoring that scheme, unless there is nothing a particular model can do to help it, then you can go for something else. This way you might get a better fealing for some of the schemes. If some of them require too much of your crew in too many turns, those might not be good schemes for you. And while learning, try not to change your crew too much.

Is there a strong tendency towards alpha striking in your local Malifaux community? If so, it might be worth it to play some games where your focus is on minimizing the impact of an alpha strike, in that case you could go for schemes that require positioning and spreading out and take reasonably sturdy and/or fast models. And then don't use your hand on doing damage or forcing attacks through, instead use it to defend your models so they can score.

Edit: I'm not a good player by any means, so take any advice with a grain of salt.

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Are you using cover and Los blocking terrain effectively? 

For this particular aspect I would suggest a game like gears of War set to insane which will force you to use line of sight and cover.

..................

 

Card usage, are you using her high cards at the right time?

Decide on 1-2 things you hope to achieve each turn that will either score vp or deny your opponent  (this includes kills for activation control).

As hydromog suggested tcg's can teach you about timing and when to spring your cards.

.................

Activations,  are you wasting ap on things which have already activating when eliminating them doesn't score or deny?

Are you activating important models too early or too late?

Activating key models early for the sake of it will lead to errors and will leave you spending high cards when your opponent still has a full hand.

Activating models too late will sorely tempt you to spend your high cards.

Think of chess and other tight strategy games for this maneuvering your pieces carefully and don't over extend will always be beneficial.

...........

Do you conceal your intentions and read other intentions well?

Can your opponents pick your scheme selection and plans, can you return the favour.

Think of everything in the game like poker, don't give away your intentions until it's too late or you are feinting.

.............

Calculating risk and return, do you know when to pounce to deny vp or put your opponent in a position where they can no longer deny you?

Think risk, as much as Malifaux is strategy base luck can always blow you out of the water.

Don't commit resources to high risk moves you can't control if there are better options for scoring or denying regardless of how juicy a target might seem.

Hope some of that helps.

The rest is faction/master specific and we need more details about your crews and games.

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6 hours ago, never born again said:

I've been playing Malifaux for over a year or so. I play Neverborn. Right from the beginning they were the faction for me. The models are the most interesting and monsters are always more fun. I play every master and I've used almost every model. I read the forums, I build my lists appropriately, I feel like I understand the game pretty well. But. I lose. Constantly. To everyone and in almost every situation. I'm in a slow grow tournament right now and I've just had my butt handed to me again and again. It's like I have this insane ability to pick the worst match ups every game. Is it just me? Does anyone else experience a lot of bad match ups as Neverborn? I feel like, as a faction, they have a lot of weaknesses. Low defense, no armor, not a lot of ways to deal with range, not many heals or healers, no condition removal. Most of what I find myself going up against, lots of range, blast markers, burning etc, as basic game mechanics are just a hell of a lot stronger than what the Neverborn appear to have going for them. I'm at a loss. I feel like I don't know how to play my faction. What are the Neverborns real strengths and how do I capitalize on them? 

I would say neverborn have high speed, decent defence, good condition removal and about average healing. That is because there is not very much condition removal or healing in the game. (And part of why they rate so highly at it for me is because the Dreamer does both, so picking a different master and you will have a lot less.).  Burning itself is not a strong mechanic, and Neverborn are fairly good at dishing it out if that s what you want to do. Blast markers should be seen as encouragement to spread out. 

Neverborn certainly aren't a weak and under powered faction. So I would suggest eitehr you are horribly unlucky, or you don't understand the game and your models as well as you thought you did. 

Malifaux is a complex game, so it is almost impossible to say why you lose without watching you play. So ask your opponents. What did you do in the game that gave them the advantage. Was their anything that they were really worried you would do that you didn't do. 

 

One other thing, I don't know how often you are able to play. Assuming you manage 1 game a week, thats 52 games in a year, and you've been playing 8 different masters. That only 6 games with each master, and not huge amounts of experience with individual models. You might find that you would do better to focus on a smaller subsection of models and really understand them. I will say this is NOT how I do it, but it does drastically reduce the amount of things you need to consider.

Hope it turns around

 

 

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Terrain, Terrain, Terrain. Saying that you're struggling against ranged and blasty crews makes me suspect you either don't have enough terrain or you need more variety. There's a very good discussion on terrain here: 

As others mentioned, I'd also recommend focusing on 1 or 2 Masters and getting 10-20 games in with each of them before adding another Master to the mix.

This "video" (sound only) has excellent and generic tips for Improving as a Player. I highly recommend it.

Hopefully these can help you start getting some wins. Hang in there.

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Dropping my two Scrip without a ton of insight as to the exact problem at hand:

I would say that the two strengths in the Neverborn faction are Control and Action Economy.

To elaborate on this: a lot of set-ups in Neverborn don't work off of very many models. Model A may do a thing to disrupt what your opponent is doing and Model B may empower Model A to do something it already does a bit better but you won't see a lot of 3+ model combinations. Neverborn models are largely independent. They do what they do and tend to do it better when they aren't doing something that works against what they are trying to do: You don't want to have a Stitched Together toss up it's creepy fog activating early and mess up your Changeling's Lovelace shot later in the turn, for example, or throw haz terrain where it will be in the way of another model moving in.

Our control is costly. We have TNs for our tricks, usually with a 5 to 7+ and a suit requirement (one needed on the flip, one on the initial stat) that requires careful resource management. Pick your tricks and learn their timing. Learn when to let the super neat thing go in favor of an attack flip. Tricks are cool but everything you do needs to equate to VP: If you are whooshing around the board making terrain and swapping models with tangle shadows and all that good stuff it doesn't matter if that gets you zero VP at the end of the turn. Always have a plan B and C, as well. If you really need to have a certain trick pay off and can't get your control hand to allocate those resources expect it to fail and have it be a boon, a shortcut, if it happens. Identify what across the table shuts down your control and shut it down, first. Condition removal, counterspell, or things that can hinder your triggers are good primary targets. 

Action Economy: This is where we have a lot of game. Pounce, Suprise!, Mimic, Obey (and Obey-like things), and whatever the Wisp does (The name escapes me) seem to be the core of my crews these days. Models taking other models' actions keeps your options open, artificially expands your areas of influence, and keeps your opponent guessing at your angles and on the back foot.

Remember that at the end of the day tricks and action economy both need a strong core crew that gets the job done. Taking a bunch of changelings and the doppelganger with only one model that actually has a good attack is a waste. Taking a bunch of control heavy models without any workhorses is a mistake. I look to Graves, Lilitu, The Tooth, The Thorn, Nekima / Lovelace / Hannah, Siliruds, Trappers, and Stitched Together to form the core of a lot of my crews because the get the job done.

At the end of the game (1) Walk and (1) Interact are probably the strongest actions in your arsenal so never forget them.

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On 24.01.2018 at 4:01 PM, H4ml3t said:

Terrain, Terrain, Terrain. Saying that you're struggling against ranged and blasty crews makes me suspect you either don't have enough terrain or you need more variety. There's a very good discussion on terrain here: [link]

I don't think that's a good idea to link clearly outdated strategy topics and recommend them to struggling players. 
A few reasons why it's outdated:
- there's no such thing as 'Obscuring' terrain trait in M2E;
- Mr Shine used Perdita as an example of Master struggling on boards with lots of blocking terrain; everyone who plays her or against her knows it's not true;

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9 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

I don't think that's a good idea to link clearly outdated strategy topics and recommend them to struggling players. 
A few reasons why it's outdated:
- there's no such thing as 'Obscuring' terrain trait in M2E;
- Mr Shine used Perdita as an example of Master struggling on boards with lots of blocking terrain; everyone who plays her or against her knows it's not true;

Good point regarding a lot of the specifics of that terrain thread. I was just remembering that thread as helping me to think about terrain, definition and placement in new and useful ways.

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there's a lot of good advice in this thread. thank you everyone. this is my first war/skirmish/minis game and its been a hell of a learning experience. theres a ton i will take away from this thread and hopefully improve my game. i think, at its core, my approach has just been too single minded. have a crew that can go toe to toe over objectives while you have a scheme runner running down the board to drop markers. it seems to me, after reading a lot of the responses here, that neverborn need to be more selective in their engagements or just very picky about how they spend ap. i will take this advice into my next match. thank you all again!

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On 27.1.2018 at 5:08 AM, Pikciwok said:

I don't think that's a good idea to link clearly outdated strategy topics and recommend them to struggling players. 
A few reasons why it's outdated:
- there's no such thing as 'Obscuring' terrain trait in M2E;
- Mr Shine used Perdita as an example of Master struggling on boards with lots of blocking terrain; everyone who plays her or against her knows it's not true;

I disagree that the topic is outdated. You can disagree with specifics (like Perdita), but using a wrong term (Obscuring is a typo and should be dense) does not make the rest invalid. The post is written for the current edition of the rules, and as such is still valid. When it comes to the specifics of Perdita, using cover in combination with incorporeal/armour against her has been a staple advice since the release of M2E as she can only ignore either armour/incorporeal or cover...

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For your first strategy game/war game you've picked one with a hell of a learning curve but one which is probably the best and most replayable.

Malifaux is a wonderful game with some great depth in fluff especially if you ignore Collodis retcon.

As others have said asking for feedback will help especially if you have someone in your group who understands basic adult learning principles.

I'd also suggest asking another neverborn player if available to watch your game and provide feedback. 

Worst case, record the session and do either a written or video battle report so people can give you advice on specific things like activation orders, ap usage, approach to strats and schemes and thoughts on timing and card usage.

Sticking to 1-2 masters will help as others have said as will sticking to simple beat stick masters with dedicated models for each task.

Eventually the aim is to be adaptable enough to be able to turn your approach on a dime if your opponent throws a curve ball.

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On 2018-01-27 at 5:08 AM, Pikciwok said:


- Mr Shine used Perdita as an example of Master struggling on boards with lots of blocking terrain; everyone who plays her or against her knows it's not true;

My experience has been that she is not a fan of blocking terrain. She hates it when she can't push towards her own because a tiny wall or crate is in the way or draw LoS to enemiesvecause of a house. She doesn't mind dense areas as much since she can push into them but blocking terrain (which usually counts as hard cover) is a pretty effective way to counter her in my experience. 

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17 minutes ago, Pikciwok said:

She can ignore cover, however, and has a plethora of pushes at her disposal to get that line of sight to other model. She's a shooting master least affected by blocking terrain IMHO.

Well at the time the other "shooting" masters were probably Sonnia (Can actually ignore LOS) and Rasputina (can use other models for LOS). We really don't have a lot of masters that rely on their shooting attacks. (possibly also wong, but he does area damage a lot so as long as he can see someone he is fairly good)

Blocking terrain is bad for her, cover isn't. her pushs are often blocked by the terrain as well. Blocking terrain is often a much a problem for masters that want to charge as shooting masters, but its not so obvious. 

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Since her push is directly towards the other model I often find smallish terrain pieces will block her best paths forcing her crew to move into suboptimal spots. I'm not saying she can't work at all (she is pretty good in close quarters as well) but compared to an open board I vastly prefer to face her where she's cramped and especially if the board is set up so that she needs to cross the center line to draw LoS to most of my crew.

It's not super pertinent to the current discussion I guess. :) 

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