Underdogs & Overcosted stuff

[-Loki-]

10 hours ago, le_sphinx said:

I think Bloodwretches are fine minions that can work very well with Dreamer, Zoraida or Aionus (maybe other combos in NB?). Scion is ok, because of conditon removal aura (yeah quite expensive) and his (0) action. The issue is his attacks - while having good damage, their skill is only 5.

I like the Scion. His issue is he's a jack of all trades, not a specialist. His attacks are good, just low Ml/Sh. But he does so much that it pushes his cost up. Decent wound count, ability to give himself  to non-damage flips, heal and reposition triggers on his attacks and a 0 to make another model perform an Interact. Powerful Condition removal. It's a lot of good stuff, it's just not great stuff.

Personally I've never been disappointed when I use him. Aside from the model, that is.

The only model in the starter I don't like is Angel Eyes, which is unfortunate.

[INXVI]

I was reading about the Cherub again today, and I can't help but feel like he fits here. Not because he's overcosted or poorly written, but because of the Primordial Magic. 

For a 3ss totem, DF 6 is solid, interactions for 1 less AP is amazing in some instances and a SH 5 with built in slow, it's amazing for such a low cost. Even the option to create hazardous terrain around a target is pretty nice to have. But a scheme marker when needed and an extra card draw a turn, with the chance to pass out insignificant is probably better than the Cherubs slow for example. 

Maybe he is used and works for some people, I'd love to try him out with supply wagon, maybe with the Emissary for a first turn push or something. 

[Pikciwok]

6 hours ago, INXVI said:

I was reading about the Cherub again today, and I can't help but feel like he fits here. Not because he's overcosted or poorly written, but because of the Primordial Magic. 

For a 3ss totem, DF 6 is solid, interactions for 1 less AP is amazing in some instances and a SH 5 with built in slow, it's amazing for such a low cost. Even the option to create hazardous terrain around a target is pretty nice to have. But a scheme marker when needed and an extra card draw a turn, with the chance to pass out insignificant is probably better than the Cherubs slow for example. 

Maybe he is used and works for some people, I'd love to try him out with supply wagon, maybe with the Emissary for a first turn push or something. 

How many times you've used giving out insignificant and scheme marker thing successfully? Keep in mind that insignificant goes away after Pukeworm dies. And it dies SO easely.

The only time I managed to use its attack with a great effect was when I copied it with a Doppelganger.

Being a scheme marker is at best mediocre. We've got perfect scheme runners, in all colors and sizes. Scheme running is kinda our thing in this game. I would pick scheme runner buffing over a single marker (almost) all the time. Plus we've got models that drop markers with their attacks.

[INXVI]

@Pikciwok

Fair enough, I once gave the Firestarter insignificant, and if there wasn't for a turn 6, I'd have denied him 2 VP. 

Same with a Terror Tot trying to achieve Surround them, I know it's not much, and there's probably more examples, but it's still something. 

I usually run him into a corner for my own surround them. 

I haven't disregarded the Cherub entirely anyway, I was just pointing out how it sizes up against the PM. A lot of people think 2 stones for the card draw and situational marker is great, so its usually worth it.

Your overview is strong though, I'll definitely try the Cherub next time I run Lilith to see how it works out.

[Masquer]

Candy. So expensive.

[Ludvig]

I believe they both have a place. In a pool where you are expected to take a reasonable number of interacts the cherub is nice to get your own interacts on and it has decent active abilities. Automatic slow on an attack isn't to be sniffed at in my opinion. Lots of enemies won't hug cover if the rest of your list isn't shooty or you can move to get a clear shot. Creating terrain around Lilith also allows a pretty fun aggressive playstyle where she gets into the thick of it and forces terrain tests. I also like how it combines with Wicked mistress as well as her (0) Sudden darkness.

Using pukey to make something insignificant is also lovely and cards are of course always nice. I've used it against enemy scheme runners that don't hit very hard but in ply you can use it against any enemy engaged with your heavier models. A majority of models in the game can't hurt you if something is engaging them. Take it easy turn one so you don't give them an easy opening, go in and engage + ply with something so they're locked out from shooting or charging and then put insignificant on them from 10" away. They might outply you turn 2 but turn 3 you could have made several models insignificant which puts pressure on them to go first with the few models they have left to interact with which creates a form of activation order control. Even just taking two of their planned plyers out of the game and then hiding could lead to a decent swing in the strat.

As a cpunterpoint the cherub would allow you a focused hit to hit/cheat severe and then ply for a (0).

[-Loki-]

13 hours ago, Masquer said:

Candy. So expensive.

She could drop 1ss (I’m surprised she didn’t in the errata, actually) but she’s not too expensive. She just takes planning and support, but with that planning and support she can really do a lot.

[Vorschlag]

I would not take her outside of Lucius/Pandora and find it difficult to then not take the weaver.

 

Didnt like her with Hamelin either.

[-Loki-]

I’ve been making an effort to ‘go against the internet grain’ and try things I often see poo poo’d online.

Candy did serious work for me today thanks to Sweets and Sours, including keeping an Emmisary Paralyzed for 3 turns, and even got some good Self Loathing hits in.

I do think she could do with being 1ss cheaper but I wouldn’t go much lower.

[Pikciwok]

Personally, I would prefer to see changes in her card instead of her cost. A few (probably) mutually excluding examples:

- Raise both her attack actions to Ca value of 6 (the most straightforward way to boost her AP efficiency (IMHO that's her Achilles' Heel), making her less reliant of WP debuffers)
- Remove  symbol from her attack (so that she can safely shoot at models engaged with WP debuffers);
- Raise her Goody Basket (Healing) action range to 4" (that would let her heal your own models while keeping them outside the range of her Fears Given Form).

That being said, I still think she has a niche where she's playable. She's just not competetive.

[-Loki-]

I’d be perfectly happy with those rather than an SS boost. Ca 6 mostly. It did feel a touch low at Ca 5 for a 9ss model. Removing the gun makes sense too.

[edopersichetti]

On 1/22/2018 at 11:00 AM, yool1981 said:

Dear All,

Please find below stuff from Wave 1 & 2 I never got working. Please kindly share your experience if you have tried these models (successfully or not) in a competitive environment.

• Tannen - So I tried Tannen on Saturday night, again... Every time I make a list with him I am sure I have found a way to make him work. Every time I fail, he dies turn 2. His defensive mechanisms are just really crappy, especially if you want to use his Chatty bubble. And he is 6SS...
• Black blood shaman - I may be wrong but I have the feeling they are overcosted by 2SS imho.
• Wicked doll - Never felt the need nor the use for them.

Other stuff that works but does not seem worth its points:

• Candy - She and her upgrade are very pricey. With the Captain treatment, I feel she would be a very strong choice but as of now, I find her lackluster (but I don't play Pandora much).
• Young Nephilims - They work OKish but they are too slow and they tend to not be worth their points, especially when competiting vs other minions in the 5-7SS range.
• Mature Nephilims - Every time I favour Nekima for pure damage or I go down to Grave for additional utility. Now that the Rider is at the same price, I fear for the Mature.
• Barbaros. He works, I like him and challenge is great but his damage track is too poor for a 10SS model. Nimble & Critical strike (or straight +1 damage on the Min damage) would help or Swift & the same damage track would maybe make him fully worth his points.

My 2 cents:

- Tannen is useful but you have to protect him. That doesn't mean he's bad, just fragile, but 6SS actually are not that expensive!
- BBS has some potential, very niche (as someone else said), I think you have to have a specific role in mind for him to play when hiring him. I'm in the process of trying various Black Blood themed lists...
- Dolls unfortunately are hopeless, overcosted for what they do and almost universally recognized as one of the worst Neverborn models
- Candy is nice but just so expensive, she's a Wave 1 model and suffers from comparison and being designed long time ago...she could really use a SS drop, and in fact I'm surprised she wasn't targeted in this errata
- Young Nephs are not so popular because of other choices in the same price range but I think the extra mobility helps and even though a bit pricey can be effective on the flank/by themselves. Have to try them some other time.
- Mature is another sorry chap, I really can't justify him since you can either get a better toolkit for a couple more SS (Nekima) or more utility for cheaper. He hits hard but he also dies quickly with those poor stats. Not to mention the Rider...so yeah, he was in a bad spot before, after errata even worse.
- Barbaros is good, situational but with lots of potential. Enemy tends to target him a lot but he can be a really great control piece. He could use a bit more survivability, but overall I think he's ok.

[Ludvig]

I can agree that Candy would feel pretty nice with a ca 6 but removing the gun would make her always able to mood swing something close to her for automatic first activation every turn with the paralyze. Add the dopple to that and nvb would have the first two activations almost every turn. Not sure I want that in the game...

[daniello_s]

Can't agree with Barbaros and Tannen. Both I've faced used by experienced player and they were really annoying if run properly.

Candy was annoying too although still i think she could benefit from SS drop and that wouldnt make her OP.

Dolls and Mature Neph are sad pandas, especially Mature after Rider's SS adjustment.