Skulls for the Bone Pile

[Ludvig]

3 hours ago, Kadeton said:

This one's certainly interesting. I'd be inclined to suggest that you would have to choose the Bone Pile as two of the three models for Public Demonstration. If we're pursuing the line that counting as two models means "fully, in all possible ways," then that would include for the purpose of selecting models for the scheme.

(We then get into the same argument again over whether it counts 6ss or 12ss towards the required total, just like in Ours. That needs official clarification, IMO - I don't think it can be resolved either way by reference to the rules, though I'd be inclined to count the cost twice.)

They don't count as two when you select it. It's an ability that only kicks in if you choose it to during the game.

[Kadeton]

2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

They don't count as two when you select it. It's an ability that only kicks in if you choose it to during the game.

Ah, didn't have my book on me so I was going by the text given in the OP, which is nothing like the actual rule.

[Ludvig]

@Kadeton

Been there myself a few times.

[mo11usq]

Quote

you would have to choose the Bone Pile as two of the three models for Public Demonstration.

Skulls is an optional ability it can choose to gain for free at the start of its activation, not one baked in.

[Paddywhack]

14 hours ago, Kadeton said:

This one's certainly interesting. I'd be inclined to suggest that you would have to choose the Bone Pile as two of the three models for Public Demonstration. If we're pursuing the line that counting as two models means "fully, in all possible ways," then that would include for the purpose of selecting models for the scheme.

(We then get into the same argument again over whether it counts 6ss or 12ss towards the required total, just like in Ours. That needs official clarification, IMO - I don't think it can be resolved either way by reference to the rules, though I'd be inclined to count the cost twice.)

One could argue that only one of the two models was actually selected for PD, as there is only one such model when you pick schemes. So it still only counts as one of the selected models, not two. Since you don't have Two Heads active during the pre-game, I'm not sure how in this case you could argue it's worth 12SS for the scheme. Two Heads requires you to actively use it to benefit from it, which you can't do before the game starts. 

[Ludvig]

Hahaha! Is there an echo in this thread?

 

On topic: @Paddywhack interesting.interpretqtion but for the purpose of the scheme you only count models that would score so it has to count as two scoring models because you are never instructed to count non-scoring models close to the target. 

If you count as one scoring and one non-scoring model you aren't counting as two models for the purposes of the scheme.

If you count as two models but not double the soulstones you aren't counting as two models for the purpose of the strategy Ours!. 

[Paddywhack]

6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Hahaha! Is there an echo in this thread?

 

On topic: @Paddywhack interesting.interpretqtion but for the purpose of the scheme you only count models that would score so it has to count as two scoring models because you are never instructed to count non-scoring models close to the target. 

yeah - sorry - thought I was at the end of the thread when I replied only to keep reading after hitting submit.

Right, but only one of the 'two' models was chosen for the scheme - the original Bone Pile. The other 'model' is not one of the chosen models so would be irrelevant. Similar to how a model that dies and is summoned back is a new and different model - not the same model that was picked for whatever scheme etc. at the beginning of the game. 

[Ludvig]

Yeah, that does sound reasonable. 

 

I just realised there was a page break between the quoted post and my answer which always leads to that risk.

[Paddywhack]

I do think there are enough questions about howthis type of ability work that we really need a FAQ for it. There is Big Jake, Bone Piles, and Tanuki I believe that all have a rule like this (did I miss any?). Since it seems to apply to 3 of the 5 Strats and some of the schemes, it will hopefully be answered officially in some fashion.

Big jake is an individual model, so not as big a game breaker, but Bone Piles and Tanuki are both unlimited minions. You could easily outnumber your opponent in Ours! with just a few of these relatively cheap models. 

[Saduhem]

31 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I do think there are enough questions about howthis type of ability work that we really need a FAQ for it. There is Big Jake, Bone Piles, and Tanuki I believe that all have a rule like this (did I miss any?). Since it seems to apply to 3 of the 5 Strats and some of the schemes, it will hopefully be answered officially in some fashion.

Big jake is an individual model, so not as big a game breaker, but Bone Piles and Tanuki are both unlimited minions. You could easily outnumber your opponent in Ours! with just a few of these relatively cheap models. 

That's what was worrying me too, then I realized that, although you would be getting a boost for the strategy, those models are pretty sub par for anything else. Hiring a bunch of bone piles, for example, would make it really hard to kill, intercept, or Interact with models. Summoning them is also pointless as they wouldn't count for Ours.

[Paddywhack]

True - they are not great models overall, so I doubt we'll see a ton of spamming really. One or two might be useful though. They are OK, and can take a beating so could be useful to hold quarters and the enemy would have to put a decent amount of AP into killing them, but they are not going to be killing a lot. And if they choose Skulls, they are only Wk 4. Not game breaking really.

The Tanuki are even more hampered as they have to give up their entire activation to count as two models. That's a pretty hefty price. I really doubt we'll be seeing any issues with them. 

[PirateCaptain]

The issue with Public Demo is that it does not count as two models when hiring and selecting schemes (as it is an ability that it must activate).  But if you selected it as one of your public demo targets, it could then count as two when revealing the scheme.

e.g. I take a bone pile and two belles as my Public Demo models, lure a hench over to one of the belles, bone pile activates an extra skull, then at the turn end, reveal public demo and you have 3 "models" within range for public demo.

[Ludvig]

54 minutes ago, Saduhem said:

That's what was worrying me too, then I realized that, although you would be getting a boost for the strategy, those models are pretty sub par for anything else. Hiring a bunch of bone piles, for example, would make it really hard to kill, intercept, or Interact with models. Summoning them is also pointless as they wouldn't count for Ours.

Interference is still in the official rotation so in some tournament games you can summon them and have them count.

[Paddywhack]

32 minutes ago, PirateCaptain said:

The issue with Public Demo is that it does not count as two models when hiring and selecting schemes (as it is an ability that it must activate).  But if you selected it as one of your public demo targets, it could then count as two when revealing the scheme.

e.g. I take a bone pile and two belles as my Public Demo models, lure a hench over to one of the belles, bone pile activates an extra skull, then at the turn end, reveal public demo and you have 3 "models" within range for public demo.

Except I would still argue you only selected one of the 'two' models. It's not the same model, similar to summing back Toshiro and it being a new model. You selected one model at the beginning of the game and now you have two models with the same name, but only one was a selected model. That is my take, though I freely admit I could be wrong. There are enough strange interactions that i really hope they address these models in the FAQ. 

[PirateCaptain]

2 hours ago, Paddywhack said:

Except I would still argue you only selected one of the 'two' models. It's not the same model, similar to summing back Toshiro and it being a new model. You selected one model at the beginning of the game and now you have two models with the same name, but only one was a selected model. That is my take, though I freely admit I could be wrong. There are enough strange interactions that i really hope they address these models in the FAQ. 

But the Bone pile counting as two models isn't the same thing as a new model.  It is the exact same model being counted twice for the purposes of the strat or scheme.

[Paddywhack]

2 minutes ago, PirateCaptain said:

But the Bone pile counting as two models isn't the same thing as a new model.  It is the exact same model being counted twice for the purposes of the strat or scheme.

Why is it the 'exact same model'? Where is that stated or even have a precedence in the rules? It's similar to the other rule as the closest thing I could think of in the current rules. 

No matter what, there are too many questions about how this type of ability works. 

[PirateCaptain]

I just don't see why there are questions.  It reads: This model counts as two models for the purposes of Strategies and Schemes

let's break it down a bit

This model (the singular model with the ability, not just parts of the model, but this whole model)

Counts as two models (the singular model is treated as two models for counting purposes, you are not creating a new model, just counting this model twice)

For the purposes of Strategies and Schemes (Ask what the purpose of the scheme or strat is, and that is what you are counting twice)

 

It just seems to read very straight forward. If you look at the purpose of the strat is SS, this model counts twice, if the purpose is bodies, this model counts twice.  It's still the same model, you just count it 2 times instead of 1

 

Side Question: Why would they make that a rule if it never actually comes up in a game?

[Paddywhack]

It does come up in other ways and unfortunately these models were made just before GG18. In Interference or Turf War for instance there is no debate and it is a very handy ability. But for Ours!, Public Demonstration, etc. there are people on both sides of the argument and some see it as an OP issue. I could see it going either way at this point as Wyrd has surprised me in the past with rules FAQs. 

For now you'll just have to discuss with your game group or TO to make sure ahead of time. I think we have quite a wait before the next FAQ...

[Saduhem]

I think GG 18 was made with those models in mind. I think that way tanukis, bone piles, and Jake will be appealing alternatives to more typically "meta" models. Who is going to even buy the bone pile models otherwise?

Similarly, the mysterious emissary, chiaki, and lady J's otherwise unused action can be very valuable in Ply for information with their aggressive condition removal. Models with from the shadows can be great at symbols of power.

I really like this whole specialized feeling that GG 18 gives, so maybe that is making me more biased towards the 2x soulstones counting. Especially because, in the case of Ours, bone piles are worthless except for that ability and summoning them does nothing. Having shield bearers or Necropunks would be more optimal and people would already have  these models. Jake can come back on turn 5, but he'll be a summon so he also won't count if previously killed. Tanuki can be scheme runners but, unless they counted twice their cost, there are better options to do that.

I guess I just like to think that GG18 wanted all these models to shine but, again, my take on the rule is just colored by what I like about GG18.

[Paddywhack]

To be clear, I am in the camp that they are worth 2x their SS value. I just think that Public Demonstration is a different matter and therefore a different answer.  

[Rob Lo]

I think that if what you're doing is counting the number of models that at the beginning of the game you selected as your public demo models, and at the end of the turn the one bone pile (that you gave an Extra Set of Skulls) you selected is standing right next to an enemy henchman, when you are counting the number of qualifying models that are in the right place at the right time, the (one) bone pile model... "counts as two models."

[Adran]

On 17/01/2018 at 7:01 PM, PirateCaptain said:

The issue with Public Demo is that it does not count as two models when hiring and selecting schemes (as it is an ability that it must activate).  But if you selected it as one of your public demo targets, it could then count as two when revealing the scheme.

e.g. I take a bone pile and two belles as my Public Demo models, lure a hench over to one of the belles, bone pile activates an extra skull, then at the turn end, reveal public demo and you have 3 "models" within range for public demo.

But you score for having your noted bone pile and 1 noted belle within 4". The fact the bone pile is currently counting as 2 models doesn't matter, you can only have noted it once, and its the noted models that count. 

[PirateCaptain]

55 minutes ago, Adran said:

But you score for having your noted bone pile and 1 noted belle within 4". The fact the bone pile is currently counting as 2 models doesn't matter, you can only have noted it once, and its the noted models that count. 

I will wholeheartedly agree that Public Demo interaction probably needs an FAQ.  But for now we'll have to agree to disagree on the interpretation. As far as I can tell from reading the scheme and the ability, the bone pile counts as 2 models but it is still the "1" you selected for the scheme. The scheme needs 3, and 2 models + 1 model is 3 models... But again, I do agree it needs an official ruling, as debating it really doesn't matter when, as was stated, Wyrd makes strange rulings on things all the time.

[Paddywhack]

58 minutes ago, Adran said:

But you score for having your noted bone pile and 1 noted belle within 4". The fact the bone pile is currently counting as 2 models doesn't matter, you can only have noted it once, and its the noted models that count. 

That is my argument as well. As this is choosing specific models before the game, only the one 'noted' models counts. I'm also starting to doubt whether conditions should copy over to the 'second model' as well? As PirateCaptain said though, I think there is a divide on the issue and until there is a FAQ it will have to be discussed before games/tourneys. 

[Rob Lo]

I'd suggest not thinking of it as two models. It is a model, with whatever conditions and wounds and costs that model has been given. When it comes time to count things up for strats or schemes, count it twice. It's not even always a benefit. You could score Hold Up Their Forces standing next to one of these guys if it had an extra skull.

But, as long as you and your opponent (or TO) are in agreement, that's about all that matters. We wait for the FAQ. By the time we get it, you know we'll have moved on to other models anyway, right?