Skulls for the Bone Pile

[mo11usq]

Bone Pile,  'an extra set of... skulls' ability states:

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This model counts as two models for the purposes of strategies and schemes

 

Wondering how this interacts with a few gg18 schemes:

Ours - would make this model count as two 6ss models? Seems similar in principle to how it works in reconnoiter, except here it could be bananas.

Take Prisoner - counts as two enemy models within 3" of each other, no third point for the enemy

Public Demonstration - you chose it as one of your 3, it counts as two models both with equal claim to being selected for the scheme, so you score minimum two points?

Hold Up Their Forces - probably a bad idea to use it here

Inescapable Trap - probably a bad idea to use it here

[Pikciwok]

44 minutes ago, mo11usq said:

Bone Pile,  'an extra set of... skulls' ability states:

 

Wondering how this interacts with a few gg18 schemes:

Ours - would make this model count as two 6ss models? Seems similar in principle to how it works in reconnoiter, except here it could be bananas.

Take Prisoner - counts as two enemy models within 3" of each other, no third point for the enemy

Public Demonstration - you chose it as one of your 3, it counts as two models both with equal claim to being selected for the scheme, so you score minimum two points?

Hold Up Their Forces - probably a bad idea to use it here

Inescapable Trap - probably a bad idea to use it here

Excellent question - I think they will put it in the FAQ soon.

1) Ours - that one's simple - I really don't see any other interpretation: It counts as two 6 ss models. I wonder if some guild players will consider hiring one of those via Domador de Cadaveres just for that purpose...
2) Take Prisoner - That would make it unlikely choice for that scheme.
3) Public Demonstration - I'm not sure - This one really needs a FAQ.

EDIT: I checked a Bone Pile card again: it has another ability that interacts weirdly with gg2018 - it's immune to non-slow, non-scheme conditions, so it cannot help you gain points in Ply for Information or Public Executions.
 

[Fetid Strumpet]

The other interpretation is that it counts as two models with a total cost of 6 SS, which is how I’m interpreting it until it’s in the official FAQ. They count as 2 models, no where does it even remotely imply that each model individually counts as 6SS.

 

[Bengt]

Take Prisoner says "there are no other enemy models", it counting as two models doesn't make it "other".

[mo11usq]

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They count as 2 models, no where does it even remotely imply that each model individually counts as 6SS

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Take Prisoner says "there are no other enemy models", it counting as two models doesn't make it "other"

This is how I will be interpreting it until an official statement says otherwise.

Good edit @Pikciwok.

[Pikciwok]

7 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The other interpretation is that it counts as two models with a total cost of 6 SS, which is how I’m interpreting it until it’s in the official FAQ. They count as 2 models, no where does it even remotely imply that each model individually counts as 6SS.

I strongly disagree with your interpretation. There is no such thing in Malifaux rules as 'model packages' (i.e. hire two inseparable models for 7 ss). An extra set of... skulls doesn't create a second, virtual model with a cost of 0 ss, nor a pair of 'Bone Pilelets' with a cost of 3 ss each. Here's exactly what it does:

10 hours ago, mo11usq said:

This model counts as two models for the purposes of strategies and schemes

The Ours strategy works this way:

At the end of every Turn after the first, add up the Soulstone

cost of all friendly non-Peon models in each table Quarter(...)

If it counts as two models, we have to add up its Soulstone cost twice.

 

6 hours ago, Bengt said:

Take Prisoner says "there are no other enemy models", it counting as two models doesn't make it "other".

I do prefer my interpretation, but  the way it's worded yours seems OK, too. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

Correct it counts as two models with a total cost of 6 SS. You are extrapolating a meaning that does not exist. It counts as two models, full stop. Please, with relevant rules text cited, explain where, in the rules it clarifies that if you count a model twice you count it’s cost twice. Your interpretation is as correct as anyone else’s, so if you run events feel free to rule it that way. I consider that a fallacious interpretation and mine is just as valid as yours and so unless and until a specific clarification is added to the FAQ document itself I’ll continue to interpret it according to the current wording.

[Pikciwok]

I'll try to explain my reasoning again:

At the end of turn we add up soulstone costs of the models. For this strategy, the Bone Pile counts as 2 models, so we add its cost two times. IMO you arbitrarily decided that 'the second model' has a cost of 0.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I understood your reasoning, no need to explain it again. I would argue that it is you who is arbitrarily assuming Rules that do not exist.

Nowhere in the rules, anywhere, does it state that a model that counts as 2 models counts its cost twice. You are totally pulling that out of thin air. And to be clear I’m not saying your positions is without logic I might add since that is certainly an interpretation that could be made.  I’m saying intent is ambiguous since the model was designed for a different set of strats and this wasn’t specifically spelled out. And RAW you do not count the SS cost twice since it does not say you can anywhere in the rules. The rules state the model counts as two models for the purposes of strats and schemes. Full stop. It does not say you get to count the SS twice, just the physical presence on the board. If your position is that it does again please cite the specific page number where that rule is listed. 

It is entirely possible to have two different and entirely valid interpretations of rules text. My argument is more backed up by RAW than yours is, but the developers aren’t especially known for keeping the tightest rules language, and M2E since it’s inception has been trying to have a more intent focused game than other table top games, so ultimately the “correct” interpretation could go either way.

[Ludvig]

When you count up a quarter you count the ss of each model. Since this model says it counts as two models I tally it like in this example: My master 10, a canine 4, a bone pile 6, another bone pile 6. That way the model counted as two models as far as the strat is concerned?

[PirateCaptain]

6 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

When you count up a quarter you count the ss of each model. Since this model says it counts as two models I tally it like in this example: My master 10, a canine 4, a bone pile 6, another bone pile 6. That way the model counted as two models as far as the strat is concerned?

This really sounds the most accurate, but I'd really like an official ruling, it's definitely vague.

[Pikciwok]

@Fetid Strumpet: I'm relieved that you understand my reasoning - I was afraid that my argumentation was incoherent. To be honest, I don't understand yours, though. I assume that in 'count their numbers' Strategies (Extraction, Interference) you think Bone Pile's ability applies. Why it does not count in Ours! ? You argue that counting ss cost is something entirely  different than counting the presence and that's the part I don't get.

I'm quite fond of my interpretation, that's why I defend it with determination. I'm in no position to claim it's official or correct and the only reason why I didn't write this before is because I thought things like that are kinda obvious.

[Saduhem]

I think that on the Max Value podcast they talked about Big Jake counting at x2 soulstones for ours. 

That would make the bone pile worth its cost I think, although I really want an FAQ clarification

[Fetid Strumpet]

I argue it doesn’t count because rules are a permissive. They tell you what you are allowed to do and anything they don’t tell you you can’t. No where does it say counting as two models counts it’s cost twice. All it does is allow you to count physical presence twice. If it worked they way you argue it would need to specifically tell you that you could count it’s cost twice.

[Rob Lo]

I don't see how counts as could mean anything other than fully, in all possible ways. It doesn't say counts as two models except when counting soulstones. It doesn't say it counts as two for purposes of counting number of models only. it doesn't say counts as two three soulstone models. If there were two physical models, you would add up both of their SS cost. If they count as two models, you treat them exactly as you would if there were two of them on the board, in that position.

Obviously it's yet another thing that can be seen in opposing ways. So we wait for the possibility of one day maybe seeing an answer, and until then discuss with your opponent and TO before playing.

[Paddywhack]

I'm pretty sure that during Beta this came up in reference to Big Jake and we were told to count him twice for now. I don't think there was ever an official 'yes, that's how we are doing it'.

I'm of the interpretation that you would count them twice, but I can see why others might disagree. I'm not sure what use the ability is otherwise though. It is however very, very strong in Ours now. Maybe too strong?

Just be sure to ask your TO or your group for now as I think there may be a lot if disagreement on this one. There are multiple models that this could affect now and some kind of official response would be appreciated. 

[Ludvig]

16 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I argue it doesn’t count because rules are a permissive. They tell you what you are allowed to do and anything they don’t tell you you can’t. No where does it say counting as two models counts it’s cost twice. All it does is allow you to count physical presence twice. If it worked they way you argue it would need to specifically tell you that you could count it’s cost twice.

If they aren't worth double the soulstones then they aren't counting as two models for the purposes of this strategy. 

[Rob Lo]

People might think it's too strong of an ability to put on a model at a certain cost, now that costs are involved rather than model count, but that's a separate argument. At that point it's no different than model X is too good in reckoning or leave your mark, to which the answer is usually always the same; kill it before it can score.

As messy as I'm sure the old system became, it is little things like this being played in two very opposite ways that make me wish "official" answers could come through the forums. It's not even something I'd think to ask a TO, because it seems so obvious, and wouldn't come up until the middle of a tournament match, which is always a bad time.

[Saduhem]

I'm inclined to think that the whole purpose of the model was to be counted twice for ours. I would never hire it for anything else.

I also thought people always assumed big Jake's cost was counted twice in Ours and people were cool with it.

[Fetid Strumpet]

The model and ability were all tested before Ours was a thing. If I run an official game I’ll be ruling they do not count their cost twice. In a friendly game I’ll work it out in advance, but I’m inclined to not count them even in that instance.

[Saduhem]

4 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

The model and ability were all tested before Ours was a thing. If I run an official game I’ll be ruling they do not count their cost twice. In a friendly game I’ll work it out in advance, but I’m inclined to not count them even in that instance.

 I'm just referring to a couple of podcasts in which they Theoryfauxed and/or tested GG18 with Jake. Since the ability is the same (I could be mistaken) I was extending by transitivity. Although I'd assume those guys to be more competent than me and way more active in the tournament scene, I don't think they acted upon an official ruling or anything like that. If I ever come across the specific podcasts/episodes again I'll be able to point out the proper examples. Hopefully, by the time I actually get the bone piles on the table some kind of official statement on the model and/or big Jake will show up somewhere.

[Fetid Strumpet]

I heard those too. Just because some people ruled one way, regardless of who they are, doesn’t mean the rule is clear. Wyrd has made clear in the past that the only official answers are in the FAQ. So we will just have to wait and see as I could see them going either way. If you run an event you as TO can do whatever you want and the people can vote if they approve with their feet. In a casual game you’ll just have to add it to the list of things that have to be agreed on before the game starts or agree to flip for it if an unresolvable argument occurs. For myself they will be 2 models that cost a total of 6,  though it is a perfectly logical stance to think the opposite. 

[mo11usq]

Rules being 'permissive' I feel the weight of argument comes down on Bone Pile counting as two 6ss models here, a la

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If they aren't worth double the soulstones then they aren't counting as two models for the purposes of this strategy.

However, the comparison with Big Jake is instructive. Being highly valuable in 'models in area' objectives is the major design feature of this model and, very importantly, he is Rare 1. There is no such restiction on Bone Pile.

I dislike 'fear of abuse' wailing as I find it puts a downer on the hobby, but regardless of interpretation, this seems poorly designed to me.

Quite easy to hire a bunch of these and still have a functional scheme running crew. Reva, Nicodem, Molly (and anyone with the emissary or Asura, maybe grave digger) can place corpse markers across the board with relative ease for a couple of these things to unbury next to at the end of the turn (not start of next which caps the utility of forgotten marshal). In the standard or previous gaining grounds objectives where summons count, this becomes a bit eyewatering with Nicodem being able to summon them.

I won't be playing them this way until there is a solid FAQ on it because I think it is dumb. What my opponents do is up to them, I seldom get to top tables and play reasonable human beings so am not worried about facing Bone Pile spam very often. 

[Fetid Strumpet]

I’d disagree with that. All the rules say is count as two models. You have to make a jump to assume that each model still gets its full cost since the rules don’t say they do. It’s a logical jump, but based on a desire to have them work a certain way for Ours. If we were having this discussion before Ours was a thing and asked if the SS cost counted twice for something like reckoning people I suspect the answers would be: totally irrelevant, and no because it only says counts physical presence as two models, not anything else. It’s the desire to see them work a certain way in a certain strat that makes a logical sense that I would argue is more behind your interpretation.

Which is why I could see Wyrd going that way even though the rules they wrote don’t actually support that.

 

[Kadeton]

On 1/15/2018 at 10:27 AM, mo11usq said:

Public Demonstration - you chose it as one of your 3, it counts as two models both with equal claim to being selected for the scheme, so you score minimum two points?

This one's certainly interesting. I'd be inclined to suggest that you would have to choose the Bone Pile as two of the three models for Public Demonstration. If we're pursuing the line that counting as two models means "fully, in all possible ways," then that would include for the purpose of selecting models for the scheme.

(We then get into the same argument again over whether it counts 6ss or 12ss towards the required total, just like in Ours. That needs official clarification, IMO - I don't think it can be resolved either way by reference to the rules, though I'd be inclined to count the cost twice.)