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Faction rankings?

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On 19/01/2018 at 9:10 PM, crimzzen said:

Interesting thoughts,  What faction?

 

Like you say, its meta dependent, but I don't give my opponents the opportunity to attack A&D usually unless I want them to.

Most commonly arcanist, but I play all factions and like to be able to at least threaten models on the deployment zone turn 1. So short of leaving it right in the back corner turn 1, which I would be happy with, it's hard to keep it safe for the start of turn 2. 

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On 1/14/2018 at 5:58 PM, Ludvig said:

Pretty sure the top scoring team at ITC had Nellie in several games and she is likely part of the reason for both Burt and McTavish going up in stones. 

One of the interesting facets of this is that when certain strats came up (I think Stake a claim and interference/recon) Travis not only left nellie, but left guild completely.  Those going away I have to think will help guild in the long run.

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18 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

One of the interesting facets of this is that when certain strats came up (I think Stake a claim and interference/recon) Travis not only left nellie, but left guild completely.  Those going away I have to think will help guild in the long run.

Sorry who is Travis?

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3 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Sorry who is Travis?

Travis Weyforth, a vey accomplished americab playerfrom the team that won ITC, he also has a podcast. He was one of the two people I know of who played Nellie at ITC and did very well with her. He was the person who I believe introduced the Tara void spam to the general public as well.

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Just now, Ludvig said:

Travis Weyforth, a vey accomplished americab playerfrom the team that won ITC, he also has a podcast. He was one of the two people I know of who played Nellie at ITC and did very well with her.

oh Thanks! i will seek his podcast. I like much Nellie! (but i'm waiting monster hunter to try her)

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1 minute ago, TeddyBear said:

oh Thanks! i will seek his podcast. I like much Nellie! (but i'm waiting monster hunter to try her)

Pretty sure it is MaxValue. Him and Larry Mottola do it together.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Pretty sure it is MaxValue. Him and Larry Mottola do it together.

It's Travis and a rotating second chair.  If you want to hear about Nellie you will have to go back and listen to older episodes because he has abandoned Nellie for other factions.

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33 minutes ago, 4thstringer said:

It's Travis and a rotating second chair.  If you want to hear about Nellie you will have to go back and listen to older episodes because he has abandoned Nellie for other factions.

That doesn't sound very promising for the guild in 2018. Duncan Bilz was up to no good with his beloved Sonnia the other week but I don't think he blogs or podcasts so it'a a bit harder to learn how he reasons.

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TBH I think figuring your own stuff out is a lot more rewarding (even if your scores are worse) :P

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12 minutes ago, trikk said:

TBH I think figuring your own stuff out is a lot more rewarding (even if your scores are worse) :P

Netlisting is pretty pointless most of the time. I just discovered that Alex Schmidt does youtube videos that are basically podcasts since there is no video. He had one on how to become a good tournament player which I found enlightening. Protip: you don't get good by netlisting. Wish I had listened to that two years back so I could have realized that there wasn't much of a point for me to even attempt it. :D  Alex also does well for himself from what I gather.

A basic look at what stuff does can be helpful to get you up and running but after that initial orientation I agree with Trikk, figuring out your own stuff and trying things on the table is far superior to trying to copy someone else's style. I have tried to copy the previous filth Sonnia list that Duncan ran and I did just as bad as I usually do. Figuring something out for yourself is very rewarding and playing for fun and learning to accept defeat is good for your sanity.

Incidently I believe faction rankings and the current NPE's depend like 90% on which factions the top players are currently playing.

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I think the best way to rank factions(if you're dead set on ranking by faction instead of master), then you should look at the overall strengths and weaknesses of that faction, and how those stack up against other factions. Ressers for example I think have the weakest strengths and probably one of the most exploitable weaknesses. Their main strengths are staying power and model count, but both of those can very easily be played around. If I don't need you to score any of my schemes then it doesn't really matter how many bodies you have, if those bodies can't do anything significant. And all of their defensive tech is pretty easy to work around. High min doesn't care about HtW, and can even be a liability as more of the opponents deck gets used without any sight of the RJ. Low defensive stats can also be especially abused by models with attack again(I still remember fondly the time I killed a full Wd Flesh Construct with 1 AP from my Young Nephilim) triggers or nasty conditions. If we look at their weaknesses (like low Df), you can very easily find ways to abuse them. Being resource intensive means that anything that drains those resources is especially debilitating. Easy to hit execute triggers can quickly go through your resources if their hit on important models.

Now, there are masters that can work around those weaknesses or enhance those strengths in some way, or they just don't follow the typical mold of the faction. Nicodem and Reva are the two best examples of this for Reva. Nicodem can gets cards aplenty and can use Sebastion to get back soulstones. He's able to effectively mitigate some of the factions weaknesses. Then there's Reva who is completely different from the rest of the faction. She isn't resource intensive as she has all the suits she needs, so she just wants good cards in hand to assure her actions, which isn't much different from almost every other non-summoner master. Calling any faction weak or strong requires caveats of "aside from these masters"

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@santaclaws01

A strong faction really only needs one strong master for each situation, sometimes that is the same one. There doesn't seem to be much point in comparing the weakest ones that don't show up often in tournaments. Ressers as a faction are as good in interference as their strongest master permits, not their weakest one?

When that amazing Hamelin pool would show up which almost makes it impossible to play against him I wouldn'trate outcasts based on what Parker would do with that but what Hamelin would do with a complrtely condition immune crew.

I'd say that the Lucius errata didn't do much for the guild's ranking since I've never met a competitive player who would be caught dead playing Lucius. In contrast Nellie's release changed their percieved ranking bigtime.

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5 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@santaclaws01

A strong faction really only needs one strong master for each situation, sometimes that is the same one. There doesn't seem to be much point in comparing the weakest ones that don't show up often in tournaments. Ressers as a faction are as good in interference as their strongest master permits, not their weakest one?

When that amazing Hamelin pool would show up which almost makes it impossible to play against him I wouldn'trate outcasts based on what Parker would do with that but what Hamelin would do with a complrtely condition immune crew.

I'd say that the Lucius errata didn't do much for the guild's ranking since I've never met a competitive player who would be caught dead playing Lucius. In contrast Nellie's release changed their percieved ranking bigtime.

At which point you're not really talking about how well the faction does, you're talking about how well that master does.

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One or two masters swing the average of the whole faction, so you often cannot rate one without the other.

How would you rate Ten Thunders without Misaki Storm build?  How would you rate Guild without McCabe mounted build?  How would you rate Outcasts without any Von Schill build? 

Outcasts scores high because Hamelin is a beast; it has to be acknowledged.

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4 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

At which point you're not really talking about how well the faction does, you're talking about how well that master does.

Well, you usually play a faction for an event so a faction that actually doesn't have any real way of doing something with any of it's masters could be said to have a weakness while a faction where you have a good pick for anything doesn't have that weakness.

On the whole it is really hard ifbot impossible to rank them. 

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12 minutes ago, Jesy Blue said:

How would you rate Ten Thunders without Misaki Storm build?  How would you rate Guild without McCabe mounted build?  How would you rate Outcasts without any Von Schill build? 

Still high, or do you want to say that McCabe, Shenlong and Asami aren't all strong.

7 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Well, you usually play a faction for an event so a faction that actually doesn't have any real way of doing something with any of it's masters could be said to have a weakness while a faction where you have a good pick for anything doesn't have that weakness.

On the whole it is really hard ifbot impossible to rank them. 

Which is why I say you should rank by masters and not faction.
 

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Netlisting is pretty pointless most of the time. I just discovered that Alex Schmidt does youtube videos that are basically podcasts since there is no video. He had one on how to become a good tournament player which I found enlightening. Protip: you don't get good by netlisting. Wish I had listened to that two years back so I could have realized that there wasn't much of a point for me to even attempt it. :D  Alex also does well for himself from what I gather.

A basic look at what stuff does can be helpful to get you up and running but after that initial orientation I agree with Trikk, figuring out your own stuff and trying things on the table is far superior to trying to copy someone else's style. I have tried to copy the previous filth Sonnia list that Duncan ran and I did just as bad as I usually do. Figuring something out for yourself is very rewarding and playing for fun and learning to accept defeat is good for your sanity.

Incidently I believe faction rankings and the current NPE's depend like 90% on which factions the top players are currently playing.

I consider my goal on the Guild forum to stop netlisting.  That being said, yeah in one game with Duncan's sonnia list you did really bad.  But if you did 20 games with that list, you probably would get pretty good with it, as you figure out how to make it work.  It seems like the best players don't play a lot of different stuff, but focus on one list and make occasional changes to hone it.

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2 hours ago, Ludvig said:

That doesn't sound very promising for the guild in 2018. Duncan Bilz was up to no good with his beloved Sonnia the other week but I don't think he blogs or podcasts so it'a a bit harder to learn how he reasons.

He is a simple man, with simple tastes.

1. Is it closer than 18”? Y/N

Y BURN [or, pre-errata, bird]

N see 2

2. Can it get closer than 18” before it activates? Y/N

Y block it with flame wall

N ignore

The rare times he is caught forming plans which don’t involve burninating the countryside at longest possible range, they involve the sort of emissary jank you can hear about on a regular basis from us nuts. Just refined, without the necessity of locking me and 4thstringer in the same meta for a month.

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1 hour ago, santaclaws01 said:

Still high, or do you want to say that McCabe, Shenlong and Asami aren't all strong.

Which is why I say you should rank by masters and not faction.
 

Master rankings have been done so many times. This is semi-different at least. :P

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Do it for each strategy?

Adding pitfalls for playing with or against would also make a more valuable contribution to the community.

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2 hours ago, Vorschlag said:

Do it for each strategy?

Adding pitfalls for playing with or against would also make a more valuable contribution to the community.

Master strength and tactics by strat would be nice. There used to be something like that for each master somewhere I believe. Schemes and stones? PMF? 

I assumed rank by faction was just a way to stir up shit and get a discussion going for fun. :D

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19 hours ago, trikk said:

TBH I think figuring your own stuff out is a lot more rewarding (even if your scores are worse) :P

 

16 hours ago, 4thstringer said:

I consider my goal on the Guild forum to stop netlisting.  That being said, yeah in one game with Duncan's sonnia list you did really bad.  But if you did 20 games with that list, you probably would get pretty good with it, as you figure out how to make it work.  It seems like the best players don't play a lot of different stuff, but focus on one list and make occasional changes to hone it.

 

I want to say that I agree with Trikk here. and whilst if you follow someone else's list and play it for 20+ games you will get good with it, but you always end up with questions like what is the purpose of this upgrade? Or how do I use the combination? And a lot of people are intimidated to change net lists after all if they do that, they're not playing the "list" anymore, and that was put in their for a reason, so why should they take it out? 

 

 

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On ‎15‎/‎02‎/‎2018 at 2:02 PM, 4thstringer said:

If you want to hear about Nellie you will have to go back and listen to older episodes because he has abandoned Nellie for other factions.

Could i ask you which faction?

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1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

Could i ask you which faction?

He's been kind of a wanderer to be honest.  I think he won a tournament with Pandora, then went to captain con and got a second place finish using ressers (iirc Nico for all his wins and Tara for a tie with the Larrow in Ours)

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On 2/15/2018 at 1:51 PM, Ludvig said:

Incidently I believe faction rankings and the current NPE's depend like 90% on which factions the top players are currently playing. 

I think this little tidbit is the biggest takeaway you can garner.

Malifaux for the most part is very balanced, player skill is the real factor.

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