Faction rankings?

[Ludvig]

21 hours ago, JoeCL said:

I've been waiting for someone else to put themselves in the line of fire and make their own list!

Glad I'm not the only one who likes throwing my arbitrary opinion out there just to generate internet debate

I'll chime in since I did go hard on your list:

Top dogs: Arcanists, Thunders, Guild, Neverborn, Outcasts

Will have to work harder: Ressers, Gremlins

I'm not sure I can commit more than that. The order withing tiers isn't really a reflection on their strength, just happened to be that order. 

 

Strong ones are strong because:

Guild are strong because cheap higher station models, debt, latest wave etc. Nellie and McCabe play to the same strengths as thunders, great mobility and strong control.

Arcanists have Marcus and Sandeep and some insane new models.

Thunders have so much mobility tricks and some very high quality models.

Outcasts: Void wretches are sick with their slow for ap control and there are some pretty mean guys in this faction. Viks alone can just massacre the opponent and completely throw them off their game and let the rest of their list scrounge up some VP to the sounds of the screaming enemies.

Neverborn: So many mobility tricks, debuffs and insane schemers. Their auto-include Nekima + Dopple and changeling sniper spams with Collodi where basically untouched (Collodi loses a single stone in the list).

 

Rougher spot factions:

Ressers are lacking in damage dealers and ways to deliver them. Maybe Kentauroi will be enough to make them absolutely disgusting instead but I'm not sure.

Gremlins got a hit and while I'm sure people will eventually adapt I think it could take a while. They also usually don't last which can be a significant problem in the new strats and their activation advantage has diminshed towards some of the previously elite factions.

 

Grain of salt and all that since I'm not a very good player and have barely seen any new models in action, this is just to make some small contribution to the outrageous guesses so people can pick me apart.  

[crimzzen]

Sure, I'll bite:

 

(Factions are all close enough to each other than player skill will have more off an effect than the actual faction  The difference between a Top and Low faction is very minor comparatively.)

 

Top

Outcast - Hamelin, Viks, and Tara are arguably the best masters at their style.  Hamelin and Viks both have very dominant styles and are both very good at it, both are very strong in 2018.  Weakness would be that Outcast masters are very focused on one thing typically.  Thought, often times they're so good at that one thing your opponent is forced to play your game.

10T - Solid models, solid masters, can handle everything.  Only real weakness is activation control.

 

Mid

Ressers - Access to Reva and summoning masters keeps this faction from dropping.

Arcanist - Well sandeep exists still.  Faction feels very insular like outcasts (each master is pretty specific) but slightly worse (other than Sandeep).

 

Mid/Low

Neverborn - Neverborn has their all-stars (like Nekima) but they're generally worse than other factions all-stars.  Very MEH selection of minions and enforcers imo.  Collodi is strong but I'm not sure he's enough.

Guild - cheap station models, DttG, Nellie.

 

Low

Gremlins - Unfortunately they are just very awkward to play.  I can never build lists I'm happy with and the latest nerfs just made it harder.  They can certainly feel OP at times when everything goes your way but otherwise they just don't have the staying power.

[PirateCaptain]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

I'll chime in since I did go hard on your list:

Top dogs: Arcanists, Thunders, Guild, Neverborn, Outcasts

Will have to work harder: Ressers, Gremlins

I'm tempted to agree with your assessment of rezzers, even though I love them.  There's some definite situations that they struggle in, and while I haven't played a ton of gg18, I think there are some changers that are going to be difficult for them.  Ours is a bit tougher... and Symbols' paired scheme, punish the weak, is definitly tough to play into.

I think I'd amend mine after more contemplation to:

 

Gold: Arcanists, Thunders

Silver: Guild, Neverborn, Outcasts,

Bronze, Rezzers, Gremlins

[Dirach]

Izikial. If you don´t want to be competitive, you are in luck. You can choose whatever faction you want. You can go for the best looking, the one that fit your playstyle or any other reason might you have.

I would say that the master you choose is more important than the faction. You find good masters and masters that are more challenging to play in every faction. All the masters, even the good ones will be challenging to play, if you don´t choose the right crew for them.

So if you and your friend are going for the crews that you think looks coolest, you will spend some time just to figure out how to play the game well. If you start winning games to easily, start experimenting with new stuff. Put some stuff into the crew that will make it harder to win, or use a henchman as Master. If you always loosing, you can try to add some of the "top Tier" models to even the score.

In miniature games, you have plenty of ways to adjust the balance. If your community of players all agree to be casual minded, I think balance can be achived. Top masters/factions only matters much in competitive communities. 

[izikial]

I think i have settled on playing lucius and then building around him either neverborn or guild. But i think neverborn it is for me

[dancater]

So

Top: Guild, Rezzers, Neverborn, Arcanists, Ten Thunders, Gremlins, Outcasts

Bottom: Guild, Rezzers, Neverborn, Arcanists, Ten Thunders, Gremlins, Outcasts

And yes I'm aware I have all the factions in both groups.  But simply put that is the point, depending on master/crew and meta every faction has some truly disgusting power and some obvious vulnerabilities.  I don't think its practical to 'grade' something as broad as a faction in a game as diverse as Malifaux.

Guild is first class with Nellie and have some great hitters and, especially now, some very good cheap spam scheme runners.  But they have a lot of weaker masters, even after the errata they really have some auto-take henchmen and some which are sub-par and shooting simply isn't as useful as melee and summoning which other factions do better.

Rezzers are potentially unstoppable with Nico running high card cycling or the range damage output from Reva.  But again weaker masters, being card starved and slow hurts them.  In attrition fights they are par-excellence but if you opponent surgically excises your key models and denies you corpse fuel its an uphill struggle.

Neverborn have Collodi who is very, very hard to deal with and Zoriada got some filthy boost in Book 5, they have great masters in both horror and melee domination with speed and the super utility of the Doppleganger.  But glass cannon issues, a bunch of masters with terrible hard counters which are common takes in factions (Pandora into Rasputina for example).

Arcanists Sandeep, Marcus and now Ironsides are all flexible and lethal.  But Colette and Kaeris are below the curve.  This faction has some great speed and awesome hitters but they can also be overwhelmed especially if an opponent takes anti-armor and kills magic and triggers.

Ten Thunders rock with Asami and Misaki even with the nerf is still super nasty, many of the cross-faction masters are strong in TT, Charm Warders are simply wrong and Terracotta warriors and Ten Thunders Brothers are still first class.  But they need the  card cycle and can be attacked on that, a few superb models which are very expensive but still essential. 

Gremlins even with the recent nerfs, and they did get the full force of the bat such as it was, they have some of the nastiest henchmen around and Somner and his Bayou Gremlin horde is still a thing, between pigs and gremlins this faction can overwhelm you fast.  But they are horribly fragile, still rely on auto-take models and most of their masters are meh...

Outcasts have the Viks for the premier speed and violence in the game and Hamelin for the best overwhelming spam, while Tara and Levi are a nightmare in competent hands.  But then I think no faction better rewards good play or more completely punishes bad, I mean look at Jack Daw, he's a beast if played perfectly but otherwise a walk over.

So I would say you can rate the factions by overall strength (so strength from the best master/crew to the worst) 

• Arcanist > Outcast > Neverborn > Guild > Rezzers > Ten Thunders > Gremlins

You could also rate the factions based on their single 'best' master/crew combo into any game (I'd rate and am prepared to be very wrong)

• Outcast (Hamelin) > Guild (Nellie) > Arcanist (Sandeep) > Gremlins (Somner) > Neverborn (Collidi) > Ten Thunders (Misaki) > Rezzers (Reva)

But to say a faction dominates another is the equivalent of saying what is the strongest in paper-scissors-rock.  The answer depends on what each player takes, all the factions can dominate, actually quite easily, with the strongest masters and crews into the right scheme/strat pool but obviously strength on strength it gets interesting but I still think they are close enough that its really tough to separate them. 

[TeddyBear]

So, i can't develop ranking, but i think there will be some masters better then others for every factions; here's what i'm thinking:

Guild: Lucius, Nellie, McCabe; Perdita probably McMourning

Ressers: Molly, Seamus, Tara, Yan Lo

Neverborn: Pandora, Zoraida, Jackob L.

Arcanists: Sandeep, Colette

Outcasts: Leveticus, Hamelin, probably Viks

Ten thunders: McCabe, probably Shenlong

Gremlins: Zipp, Zoraida, Ulix

 

Anyway, we are all agreed that Hamelin is soo strong, but : would you use Hamelin in "Ours"??? And, if yes how?

And also: i still don't understand why TT shall be considered so good..? for pushes? for Greater conditions removal abilities? 

And: Why guild shall be considered so bad?? Do you know what that means have access to models like monster hunters? maybe with reactivate with mccabe? or with changeling with lucius? or fast with nellie? No one, have played them against me yet.. but they genuinely scare me obviously this is only my opinion..

[-Loki-]

13 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

Neverborn: Pandora, Zoraida, Jackob L.

As much as I love Pandora, Lilith is better. Pandora is great in her little niche, but outside of that - or if someone knows how to build or play around it - she really struggles.

[H4ml3t]

2 hours ago, izikial said:

I think i have settled on playing lucius and then building around him either neverborn or guild. But i think neverborn it is for me

After 18 months of Arcanists (I Love Rasputina and Marcus!) I was ready for another faction for my competitive play for this year. I knew I wanted Neverborn and would be running Lilith (our love may last the ages--or until she gets pissed and kills me) but I didn't know which other Master I'd run with her. I experimented with several and I found that I really enjoy Purple (NB) Lucius. He's certainly not OP but he can be very strong if played well and has a high skill-cap. Other players often underestimate him if they haven't faced a strong Lucius player. Best of luck to you. PM me or start another thread if you have any questions about getting going.

[TeddyBear]

9 hours ago, -Loki- said:

As much as I love Pandora, Lilith is better. Pandora is great in her little niche, but outside of that - or if someone knows how to build or play around it - she really struggles.

How would you play with Lilith in gg 2018? I thought she is better with her classic "growth nephilim set up" than "swampfiends"... instead i would try Lynch with "swampfiends" like spawn mother + bad juju + eternal + wisp;

Hungering is 0 cost +20 pti of swampfiends, remaining points optionally

[Ludvig]

12 hours ago, izikial said:

I think i have settled on playing lucius and then building around him either neverborn or guild. But i think neverborn it is for me

Not going easy on yourself I see! Lucius is a blast to play! 

@H4ml3t Noo, don't PM, keep it to public threads so everyone can enjoy your insight!

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

How would you play with Lilith in gg 2018? I thought she is better with her classic "growth nephilim set up" than "swampfiends"... instead i would try Lynch with "swampfiends" like spawn mother + bad juju + eternal + wisp;

Hungering is 0 cost +20 pti of swampfiends, remaining points optionally

She is probably stronger woth few nephilim outside of Barbaros and Nekima who do their thing well i any crew. Her usual play,style of bloking off LoS and screwi g people over qill probably greatly benefit from cyclops who provide even more terrain.

"Want to contest my quarter? Would be an awful shame if all my markers blocked off all the accessways to it."

[-Loki-]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

How would you play with Lilith in gg 2018? I thought she is better with her classic "growth nephilim set up" than "swampfiends"... instead i would try Lynch with "swampfiends" like spawn mother + bad juju + eternal + wisp;

Hungering is 0 cost +20 pti of swampfiends, remaining points optionally

If your only experience with Lilith is Grow lists, no wonder you don’t rank her high.

[TeddyBear]

38 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

If your only experience with Lilith is Grow lists, no wonder you don’t rank her high.

I always thought, she is one of best neverborn masters, but in gg2018? And i tried her with differently other lists..

I haven't added her in my list, because i think that Lynch, Lucius, and Zoraida will be better.. it's not a metter of personal preferences..

I ask you again: how would you play with Lilith in gg 2018? 

[Ludvig]

@TeddyBear

Wagons: making cyclops interact for (0)s with her totem makes for great wagon mobility. Qhatever the opponwnt is using for wagons you try to swap out to a sidelie where it will not do much and replace it your doppleganger to interact while engaged and get their marker away from their pushers and back on their side. Generally pulling their wagon-pushers away.

Ours! will be a good strat for pushing/swapping their expensive models into the non-scoring area after they go. 

Her crew has little trouble getting markers out for marker schemes and you can puahe people in even if they see the trap coming. Punish the weak goes very well with her pushes and repositioning friendly scorers if they run out of easy targets. If the enemy tries to set you up in the various positioning schemes you can use her activation to swap around friendly models to not be engaged or to be engaged if that is what you are going for. She just has so many tricks for moving models around as your last activarion.

[TeddyBear]

47 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

@TeddyBear

Wagons: making cyclops interact for (0)s with her totem makes for great wagon mobility. Qhatever the opponwnt is using for wagons you try to swap out to a sidelie where it will not do much and replace it your doppleganger to interact while engaged and get their marker away from their pushers and back on their side. Generally pulling their wagon-pushers away.

Ours! will be a good strat for pushing/swapping their expensive models into the non-scoring area after they go. 

Her crew has little trouble getting markers out for marker schemes and you can puahe people in even if they see the trap coming. Punish the weak goes very well with her pushes and repositioning friendly scorers if they run out of easy targets. If the enemy tries to set you up in the various positioning schemes you can use her activation to swap around friendly models to not be engaged or to be engaged if that is what you are going for. She just has so many tricks for moving models around as your last activarion.

Thanks Ludvig! Are interesting ways to play her, even if in "wagons" i would prefer use lucius commanding presence; or zoraida's obey.. 

furthermore, if cyclops use (0) action for interact, they cant use their (0) action..

Yes in "ours" will be very strong also for me.

I like read different opinions than mine

 

[Jesy Blue]

16 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Anyway, we are all agreed that Hamelin is soo strong, but : would you use Hamelin in "Ours"??? And, if yes how?

This is the list I've been typically using for almost three months, it will be fine in Ours:

50 SS Outcasts Crew

Hamelin + 2 Pool

 - Plague Pits (1)

 - The Piper (2)

 - Sewer King (1)

Montresor (9)

 - Fearful Whispers (1)

 - Brick By Brick (0)

Nix (8)

 - Oath Keeper (1)

Greed (9)

 - The Creeping Terror (1)

Crooligan (4)

Crooligan (4)

Crooligan (4)

Obedient Wretch (4)

 

 (exported from CrewFaux)

 

8 models, the only thing I'll be summoning are The Stolen, and the minor rat machine from them being killed/sacrificed (I'm still debating if Insidious Melodies on Nix is worth it) plenty of mobility and Montresor pulling people out of position, Ours is not a problem.

[crimzzen]

22 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

 

Anyway, we are all agreed that Hamelin is soo strong, but : would you use Hamelin in "Ours"??? And, if yes how?

 

My Hamelin crew looks like:

 

Hamelin (Plague Pits, Sewer King, The Piper) 2 Cache

1 Stolen

Benny Wolcomb (Oathkeeper) (killjoy in the killing one with the condition)

Ashes and Dust (Scramble)

The Midnight Stalker

1 Obedient Wretch

1 Rat

1 Crooligan

 

If they are not careful with their model placement you can obey/pipes them on to dividing lines or within 6" of the centre of the table.  If you manage to pull this off and your schemes are relatively easy you've probably just won.

If your opponent chooses to spread out, you have insane speed between obey and ashes and dust and midnight stalker, both of which can take care of themselves to kill models in other quarters.  Most opponents can't hold up to them long and you should find you have dominance in a zone pretty quick.  Especially ashes and dust in a zone, they need to commit a lot of resources to remove him and should leave other zones free for you to take.

Smart use of plague pits means you can have 12" nukes from benny and hamelin (and wretch/stolen to a lesser extent) which do not randomize or care about cover.  You should be able to nuke a model off the table pretty quick as well.

 

Really, if they give it to you, I just obey models out of zones into the non-scoring areas.  Otherwise my beaters are going to alpha you (with obey) and you'll be down models and too widely spread out.  Also, given how expensive Ashes is, your opponent can't really plan for which zone he's gonna take.  Gives you a lot of control over winning zones your opponent thought they had, especially once all their models have gone.

[TeddyBear]

@crimzzen i'm not familiar, but if unfortunately you lose A&D, that's minus 14 points..

[trikk]

3 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

@crimzzen i'm not familiar, but if unfortunately you lose A&D, that's minus 14 points..

15. Scramble also doesn`t count

[TeddyBear]

1 minute ago, trikk said:

15. Scramble also doesn`t count

True! Are 15!

[Adran]

15 minutes ago, trikk said:

15. Scramble also doesn`t count

Surely Scramble never counted, so you are only 14 down

[crimzzen]

Yep, If A&D goes down they no longer score.

You have control over when and where it dies.  Really, you're able to activate after them and I'll commit A&D to whatever zone I think I can bully with A&D and obey.  IF they actually managed to split A&D and you reform him, well you can really go full throttle then and just start killing stuff wholesale.

 

Really, theoretically it should go:

• T2 Ashes alpha's something with help from obey and activation control and wins his zone.
• T3 Ashes kills something else the next time and is potentially at risk the following turn and probably wins his zone.
• T4 Ashes may or may not kill something but probably gets split.

He's already killed at least two models and probably contributed two scenario points.  He's not dead either, comes back, and keeps killing.  Hopefully the rest of your list can pull the weight turn 4 on.

[Adran]

13 hours ago, crimzzen said:

Yep, If A&D goes down they no longer score.

You have control over when and where it dies.  Really, you're able to activate after them and I'll commit A&D to whatever zone I think I can bully with A&D and obey.  IF they actually managed to split A&D and you reform him, well you can really go full throttle then and just start killing stuff wholesale.

 

Really, theoretically it should go:

• T2 Ashes alpha's something with help from obey and activation control and wins his zone.
• T3 Ashes kills something else the next time and is potentially at risk the following turn and probably wins his zone.
• T4 Ashes may or may not kill something but probably gets split.

He's already killed at least two models and probably contributed two scenario points.  He's not dead either, comes back, and keeps killing.  Hopefully the rest of your list can pull the weight turn 4 on.

I would be pretty surprised if Ashes scored Ours on turn 2. I would happily trade off an 8ss model or so to kill it turn 1/2 and then try and tie it up turn 3/4 beacuse its got to kill at least 15 ss of my crew to start tieing  on Ours. Splitting Ashes isn't that hard if you try, and whilst its normally not worth the effort unless you think you can kill the parts, it is worth it if its 1/4 of the SS cost of the crew, and you are playing ours. If I kill it turn 2 before it activates, then it needs to kill on average an 8ss model turns 3 and 4 just to tie Ours (I win turns 2 and 3 because you're down 15, and at the end of 3 I'm only down 8. On turn 4 onwards your down 15 and I'm down 16).

That ignores all the other stuff, and it may be that I'm a relatively aggressive player and play in a fairly aggressive meta, but I honestly would not expect Ashes to score in Ours. That's not saying I wouldn't pick it for those games, because it can still be very useful if you make use of it,.

[crimzzen]

9 hours ago, Adran said:

I would be pretty surprised if Ashes scored Ours on turn 2. I would happily trade off an 8ss model or so to kill it turn 1/2 and then try and tie it up turn 3/4 beacuse its got to kill at least 15 ss of my crew to start tieing  on Ours. Splitting Ashes isn't that hard if you try, and whilst its normally not worth the effort unless you think you can kill the parts, it is worth it if its 1/4 of the SS cost of the crew, and you are playing ours. If I kill it turn 2 before it activates, then it needs to kill on average an 8ss model turns 3 and 4 just to tie Ours (I win turns 2 and 3 because you're down 15, and at the end of 3 I'm only down 8. On turn 4 onwards your down 15 and I'm down 16).

That ignores all the other stuff, and it may be that I'm a relatively aggressive player and play in a fairly aggressive meta, but I honestly would not expect Ashes to score in Ours. That's not saying I wouldn't pick it for those games, because it can still be very useful if you make use of it,.

Interesting thoughts,  What faction?

 

Like you say, its meta dependent, but I don't give my opponents the opportunity to attack A&D usually unless I want them to.