beevison Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 So the Viks are what brought me to Outcasts faction and are very much still my first love. I mean who doesn't love Katana wielding twin sisters?! Unfortunately, whilst the first few times you play them is very fun (not so much for your opponent and the pile of corpses they leave behind) but the whole sling shot and variations on this tactic gets a bit repetitive and is disastrous against an experienced player. I don't really feel that Wave 5 brought much to them. Sisterly Bonds is nice, but just doesn't really fit very well. Soaring Dragon gives an alternative play for Blood, but from a few times playing with it can be very resource intensive and vulnerable. So on that note I've been trying to come up with a different style of play, which relies less on throwing Blood down someones throat and more on surgically eliminating specific pieces and then pulling either sisters back. Through the use of Student of conflict and Vanessa. Ashes - Survivalist, Mark, Fury Blood - Oathkeeper, The bigger they are Student of conflict Hodgepodge Emissary - conflux of avarice Marlena Webster - Scramble Vanessa - Sisters in Spirit Hodgepodge effigy Now I know it might be madness for me to put mark on Ashes rather than Blood. But the way I see it Blood has easy access to positives for damage and attack. The idea isn't to make one murder machine, but that both sisters are capable against basically anything. Also combo of fury and bigger they are on Blood more than makes up for lack of the mark. It requires more finesse of where you go with each of the sisters. The general idea is that Ashes and Blood are each supported by either student or vanessa. They go in on certain targets and then get pulled back through sisters in spirit from vanessa or student. The hodgepodge effigy schemes and Emissary floats about doing whatever is needed. I also included Marlena to toughen Ashes up a bit and be a 3rd potential threat. This leaves 8stones left for something else to fill in. (extra scheme runner, ranged etc etc etc) I haven't tried this out yet. So I have no idea if it would work. Thoughts and criticisms on the idea would be most welcome. I'm still torn between Marlena and Stalker. Stalker would be a great distraction and threat piece. But soul tether and hard to kill on Ashes looks fun. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRocketPants Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I'm in the same boat than you. I was hesitating between Neverborn where I liked several masters and Outcasts where I really really really liked Viks. Now I also have Levi, Misaki and Tara. I play Tara from time to time, not really because I love her, but because I don't want to crush my opponent terribly. My issue is that nobody really seems to be able to deal with the Viks the way they are meant to be played and it is a NPE for them (and for me in some ways). I played a "gimped" Vik list a few time experimenting with different play styles... but it's just that. A purposely gimped list even if on paper it sounds ok. I don't want to play that way either. I feel bad for choosing outcasts.... even though I love the Viks, it seems I can't play them. I think this is partially because of my opponents (not the most competitive Malifaux group around here) as personally I don't think they are too powerful, and if I had to play against them I could beat them quite easily. But as it stands I own most models of the faction but feel like most are really bad... which again makes me not want to play other masters. I look at other factions with so many more interesting competitive models and I'm a little bummed honestly... WTF Wyrd? I'd also like to start Hamelin because what a cool theme. I'd get the guilder store alternative model of course... But what's the point... I'd spend a couple of months painting only to never play him as it's another NPE for my opponents. Let me know if you find a cool alternative to playing Viks and I'll try it. But more likely I'll play less Malifaux... maybe someday I'll start a different faction, but for now I started buying and painting 40k models... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I know what you mean. I love Viks, but always feel a little guilty playing them (in slingshot mode anyways). I enjoy Levi quite a lot and all the options he opens up. Parker has to be my favourite, although I agree with the general consensus that he is a bit underpowered and overcomplicated. With so many moving parts it's very difficult to get all of them to align into a coherent game plan that comes off. But when it does it's very rewarding. I have a feeling that as a faction Wyrd aren't exactly sure what to do with Outcasts and where they sit. My main reasoning behind wanting to come up with a different play style with Viks is to throw a curve ball out there. So many experienced players no what to expect and how to counter a "true Viks" crew. I'm hoping that there might be a way to play to that and come up with something unexpected. It's why in general I've done better at tournaments with Parker than Viks. No one knows Parker that well, because there's so much he can do. Viks just do the murdering... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
James Dyson Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I feel this way, too. I’ve been trying the Viks lately, but I feel like their design space is so focused on killing that they really can’t do much else. I like your idea of putting TBTA on Blood and Mark on Ash. Might I suggest putting Sisters in Fury on Blood as well? Then you can take Hannah to copy it, as well as giving you a tankier model. And you can probably squeeze in a Librarian for some heals she can copy as well. One of the things I’ve started doing in my local scene while playing the Viks is being up front with my opponent on their threat ranges- like reminding them “She has X” threat” when they move a model. Maybe even measure it out so they can visualize it. I find it helps avoid the “gotcha” feeling that can happen when a Vik goes into your enemy crew. Best of luck with trying new ways to play the Viks- please do let us know how it goes! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 For me the problem with the viks are the min 5 damages and the mark. This is so killy that you just have to play it. And the best way to do so is slingshots. And when it's working it's just to NPE for the opponent especially when he doesn't even have the crew to deny it. I play against SirRocket and either i play a crew that can do something (collodi) and there is a game or i play a crew that can't do it well ( ulix with gracie+pigapult was one example) and its over turn2. I never brought my lynch crew against him because there is always the 30-50% chance that he will bring the viks and the game would be over before it even started. If i had to play the viks i would personally love to use the (2) actions. I find them very fun and interesting with as much sister as possible with the different upgrades to give 'sister' to friendly models. Soaring dragon seems fun also. Unfortunately this playstyle is not very effective compared to classical slingshot. Switch some power from direct murdering (fury, mark) to 'sister synergy' could be a way to make viks funnier for everyone. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I do like your idea of putting Sister in Fury on Blood for Hannah copy. Not only does this up Hannahs damage track to 4/6/8 which is pretty hilarious, but I've always liked Hannah as a "blocker" for the sisters. Part of my feels nervous of taking blood not just without Mark, but without oathkeeper too. The other issue I have with it is that I would have to drop Marlena and effigy... Not so fussed with Marlena. As this is optional between her or Stalker. Or now that I think about it, Mad Dog (his shotgun push is underrated IMHO). But regardless it's on my list of things to try out. I don't think this list is necessarily better than traditional Viks list. But I think the reason for that is that the traditional list is very basic and to the point. With very little moving parts. I think this might have some play (I won't know until I try it), but require much more care and attention. As far as I'm concerned that might be a good thing so that Viks are more interesting and dynamic for me again. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 @Aegnor Completely agree with you. Whilst I enjoy Viks. I find you either come up against a crew that can't deal with them and its a bloodbath. Or its a crew that can deal with them and its a bloodbath. I've managed to get the (2) action off a couple of times and both times have been incredible, always on a 50mm model and always going for whirlwinds from it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 A fun road for viks could also be to have some 'resilient sisters' upgrade. Something like a counterpart to fury/mark which would give sisters defensive abilities like armor instead of raw damages. You can imagine new little sisters to go with (around 5ss, low damage tracks, can't profite from fury but with resilience or scheming capability). The goal would be to have 2 different paths : -the killy one with heavy hitting slingshoted viks (fury, mark and so on) -the sister gang one ( viks + vanessa + some little sisters +student) playing with the (2) actions, shared healing , some armor or so. With the viks being more support/combo models (with still 3min damages which is already nice). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icemyn Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 12 minutes ago, beevison said: I do like your idea of putting Sister in Fury on Blood for Hannah copy. Not only does this up Hannahs damage track to 4/6/8 which is pretty hilarious, but I've always liked Hannah as a "blocker" for the sisters. Part of my feels nervous of taking blood not just without Mark, but without oathkeeper too. The other issue I have with it is that I would have to drop Marlena and effigy... Not so fussed with Marlena. As this is optional between her or Stalker. Or now that I think about it, Mad Dog (his shotgun push is underrated IMHO). But regardless it's on my list of things to try out. I don't think this list is necessarily better than traditional Viks list. But I think the reason for that is that the traditional list is very basic and to the point. With very little moving parts. I think this might have some play (I won't know until I try it), but require much more care and attention. As far as I'm concerned that might be a good thing so that Viks are more interesting and dynamic for me again. Consider: Mark of Shez----- Sisters in fury Armor+1 Min 3 Min 4 Armor+2 Min 3 Min 3 Incorp Min 3 Min 3 The real disadvantage is after turn 1 when Hannah isn't as likely to be able to copy the upgrade before Blood activates if at all. That and H2K is a real menace. 90% of the time Fury is better, especially as an alpha strike, but it does have some very real drawbacks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRocketPants Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 47 minutes ago, Diceman87 said: One of the things I’ve started doing in my local scene while playing the Viks is being up front with my opponent on their threat ranges- like reminding them “She has X” threat” when they move a model. Maybe even measure it out so they can visualize it. I find it helps avoid the “gotcha” feeling that can happen when a Vik goes into your enemy crew. Oh yeah.... I definitely do that too. But when I tell them : so I'm gonna bury her and move the scion up and my threat range turn 1 is 39.2 inches from where scion is deployed and then she chain activates into 4 attacks, has min 5 dmg, 7Ml, + flips ta hit and dmg, ignores hard to wound, hard to kill, armor and incorporeal and can whirlwind... they still don't know what to do about it. 1 hour ago, beevison said: I have a feeling that as a faction Wyrd aren't exactly sure what to do with Outcasts and where they sit. I think one of the issues is that they were supposed to be the merc faction. In order to make sure nothing is over powered and broken with all the shit other factions have you have to make super generic, under-powered bland models. Just look at Johan and Trapper. They weren't an issue in Outcasts really... just pretty decent models. Now they got nerfed because of other factions. I want them to take the mercenary word out of 90% of our models and let us have some more good/interesting stuff. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 I completely agree on the whole telling people what they do and how they do it. But, even so most of the time the first time someone comes up against Viks there will be a pile of dead models by the end of turn two. And a slight green tinge to their faces. I think the easiest and simplest fix is to change the merc tax. Not sure how or what to suggest. But in this errata both Gremlins and Outcasts suffered the worst and mostly because of their mercs. 36 minutes ago, Icemyn said: Consider: Mark of Shez----- Sisters in fury Armor+1 Min 3 Min 4 Armor+2 Min 3 Min 3 Incorp Min 3 Min 3 The real disadvantage is after turn 1 when Hannah isn't as likely to be able to copy the upgrade before Blood activates if at all. That and H2K is a real menace. 90% of the time Fury is better, especially as an alpha strike, but it does have some very real drawbacks. As much as I love Hannah, I'm less inclined to take her in this crew build. Whilst copying and AR are great, I'm more inclined to go with Marlena for added Ash protection and random charges or Stalker as he's brilliant on to put opponent on the back foot from turn one. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Icemyn Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 16 minutes ago, SirRocketPants said: I think one of the issues is that they were supposed to be the merc faction. In order to make sure nothing is over powered and broken with all the shit other factions have you have to make super generic, under-powered bland models. Just look at Johan and Trapper. They weren't an issue in Outcasts really... just pretty decent models. Now they got nerfed because of other factions. I agree with your overall point. Mercenaries are really just a bane on the game. There isn't a good way for them to function at all. If the model is balanced at it's cost it's not going to be worth paying the tax for. If the model is worth the tax it is likely undercosted or OP in it's faction. Regarding your examples: Johan was not a realistic model at 6ss. 8wds H2K with the Ml capability of a 9ss model (Captain/Taelor) and condition removal just tossed in. The trapper was kind of unreal compared to other snipers. Even now he's probably better than Hans and definitely better than the Katanaka. Nino is probably the best now, headshot and spotter are pretty good abilities. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterfinn Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 @beevison, your “yo-yo” approach is an interesting use of SiS. Have you put this crew on the table yet? I dispute that there’s a right or wrong way to play the Viks. They are murder machines for sure. That’s what they do. They also cost 0 of the 50 stones in your crew to start with, 8 if you include their two core upgrades (Fury and Mark) and 5 for cache. That’s plenty of extra room for a variety of play styles. Strategies and schemes dictate how I use my Viks in practice. Far apart, close together, vanguard, counter charge, distraction, area denial, scheme runner hunting, leader hunting, it all depends on what I need to do for that game. I don’t like using the alpha strike because it’s unreliable and it overextends the most dangerous melee model(s) in my crew. A bad hand, low flips, and savvy opponents aren’t hard to come by. Get any one of the three and your party is most likely over. My objectives also dictate most of the other models and upgrades I take. I always take Fury. I always take Mark. I always take a librarian. Everything else is up for grabs, although Vanessa makes the cut most of the time. I’ve been experimenting with Sisterly Bonds recently. Mystic Blades is fantastic all by itself, at least in my meta. Turning a Ronin into a 4/5/7 armor-ignoring Flurry machine is just a bonus. I can’t remember the last time I used Sisters in Spirit or Synchronized Slaying. In practice I’ve found that this approach makes my Viks simultaneously more dangerous and more fun to play against than a typical slingshot build. More dangerous because they’re unpredictable, more fun because my opponent is actively making decisions over the entire course of the game. I win a lot but rarely have blowouts. All of my games end with a smile and a handshake. My 2 scrip and YMMV. @SirRocketPants, where do you get the chain activation from the Scion unbury? The Hollowing doesn’t grant chain activation. Synchronized Slaying can’t be taken by the Scion. I must be missing something. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirRocketPants Posted January 12, 2018 Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 3 minutes ago, misterfinn said: @SirRocketPants, where do you get the chain activation from the Scion unbury? The Hollowing doesn’t grant chain activation. Synchronized Slaying can’t be taken by the Scion. I must be missing something. I play the emissary and give blood momento before burying her with a void wretch. Costs a lot of points, but it's just so amazing. And I like to a a void wretch most of the time anyway and I love the emissary for a bunch of reasons. 7 minutes ago, Icemyn said: Regarding your examples: Johan was not a realistic model at 6ss. 8wds H2K with the Ml capability of a 9ss model (Captain/Taelor) and condition removal just tossed in. The trapper was kind of unreal compared to other snipers. Even now he's probably better than Hans and definitely better than the Katanaka. But Johan with Wk4 in a faction with no pushes was just good. Not game breaking. And trapper again... was good, but not 3 changeling game breaking. And as I said. When I think about other factions.... there are all these models I'd like to put in a list and it's a tough decision. When I play outcasts it's always the same models... not because they are broken. But because everything else is so useless. I was listening to poscasts talking about how Hayreddin or Baby Kade for 6SS are maybe going to see a little play here and there.... and I'm just looking at my 6SS Ronin (which I sometimes take and consider above the curve for Outcasts)... Or 8SS Woku Raiders... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 12, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 12, 2018 @misterfinn I haven't had the opportunity to use it yet. I'm hoping to test it out this weekend and see how it feels. I agree with you that the alpha/sling shot tactic is not something I go for, for all the reasons you've pointed out. Although, sometimes an opportunity is just too good to resist. I've never had Mystic Blades come up unfortunately, but my main opponent is a gremlin player and a new resser player (Seamus and nico). So that's not surprising. I just often find that I wish I'd used the slot for something else. Same with Synchronised slaying, 2SS for essentially chain activation I don't feel is justified. Especially when the Emissary is available and able to do so much work by himself. The main reason I'm trying this out is that I've a 3 round fixed master tournament coming up. And I want to play Viks, but I'm very aware that almost EVERYONE who has any experience will know how to deal with them. So trying to come up with a curve ball. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CapnBloodbeard Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 I personally don't play the slingshot much. I prefer to use Malifaux Child and use MC to cast the buffs onto Blood to save an AP from Ash, and to ensure all the buffs get covered. I'll probably park him and Vanessa somewhere kind of out of the way and he also keeps casting heal on Vanessa to bounce heal off all of them. Hopefully Vanessa doesn't attract too much attention and she can pick off weaker models at range or scheme while this is happening. I've been toying with the idea of using the Viks to hunt down the scheme runners when the opponent splits the crew rather than just throw them straight at the biggest meanest model. That way Viks are playing denial while my other models can scheme. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
misterfinn Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 22 hours ago, SirRocketPants said: I play the emissary and give blood momento before burying her with a void wretch. Ah, I see. Yeah, that’s a nasty threat. Only two activations for your opponent to reposition. Even if you don’t get the big murder train rolling on turn one, you still start your opponent on the back foot and force them to play defensively. 22 hours ago, beevison said: The main reason I'm trying this out is that I've a 3 round fixed master tournament coming up. And I want to play Viks, but I'm very aware that almost EVERYONE who has any experience will know how to deal with them. So trying to come up with a curve ball. Makes sense to me. An “all comers” list with the Viks is a bit trickier than other masters who’re more well-rounded (like Von Schill) or have more flexible hiring pools (Tara, Levi). I’ve taken a more conventional combined arms approach to that situation in the past - a mix of artillery, close support, and melee beatings. Now I’m extra curious to hear how your curve ball crew fares! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeCL Posted January 13, 2018 Report Share Posted January 13, 2018 Slingshot or not, any viks list that is not built for some form of alpha strike is gimped. The more opportunities you give your opponent to strike first the more you lose. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nukemouse Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 If you have a list with one vik being unkillable due to marlena, maybe see if somehow can get killjoy? Even if they kill the other one, the pain doesnt end. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
apes-ma Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 On 12/01/2018 at 1:54 PM, beevison said: I do like your idea of putting Sister in Fury on Blood for Hannah copy. Not only does this up Hannahs damage track to 4/6/8 which is pretty hilarious, but I've always liked Hannah as a "blocker" for the sisters. How do you make Hannah a sister to benefit from the +2 damage? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 7 minutes ago, apes-ma said: How do you make Hannah a sister to benefit from the +2 damage? Sisters in Fury reads this model and all friendly Sister models. So when Hannah copies it she counts as "this model" thus gaining the +2 dmg. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 But Hannah can also copy Sisters in Fury from Ashes don't? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, Zebo said: But Hannah can also copy Sisters in Fury from Ashes don't? Hannah can't copy abilities from Leaders Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beevison Posted January 15, 2018 Author Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 So, I got a couple of games in over the weekend with this list (45ss). Unfortunately, both games were against Gremlins so the results are a little skewed and my opponent was of middling ability. 1st game was Standard, Symbols, Dig, Hold up their Forces, Punish the weak, Undercover Entourage, Public Demonstration. I went for Dig and Punish the Weak (Surprise!). I swapped out Marlena for Midnight Stalker (Scramble) and that guy is incredible for this Scheme, especially if you slap on the Don’t mind me trinket asap. I was playing against Ulix. Taking Punish the Weak and Undercover on Ulix. I’m not going to go through the battle in full. End result was 10-4 to me. This was slightly helped by Ulix failing to summon a war pig for first 3 turns (no 12) which cost him and allowed me to get into position. Normally when I play against Ulix with Viks he avoids balling up as he wants to. Knowing that I wasn’t playing slingshot meant that he felt more comfortable doing this. Giving me significant board control. The combination of the Emissary and the 2 Sisters in spirit gave me significant mobility that I had not expected. Allowed me to be where I wanted to be. I was punished significantly for only having the one minion and he made a very good play for my symbols that narrowly failed. Using pigapult and 3 piglets. He was hoping to get reactivate off on all of them with the hog whisperer, which would have been amazing. But he only had 2 high masks that he used early on in the turn defending against one of the viks I believe. Second was a real test; Corner, Ours! Guarded Treasure, Inescapable Trap, Take Prisoner, Take One for the Team and Recover Evidence. I was looking forward to this one as it was a very “anti-Viks” pool. I went up against Zipp. My opponent is relatively new to playing Zipp (this was his 3rd game) so it could have gone much worse for me. I took Take one for the team on Effigy, my thinking being he’s tough enough to survive a while and cheap enough to give me points against most things. And Recover Evidence, thinking that with the added mobility on Viks I could get to far flung markers once I’d killed enough of my opposing crew. I took Marlena this time, partly because I wanted to try her out and partly because the added survivability in this one would be more important than the mobility of the Stalker. Ashes died 2nd turn, but the sheer amount of AP spent on getting rid of her over the course of 2 turns I think is what won me the game. It should of taken more but for the first 3 turns of the game the highest card I had in my hand was a 6. In short, I can’t say that this method is “better” than Sling shot Viks. But, it was definitely more fun and more interesting to play. I love the Emissary (this was my first time using it) with them, the Stalker is incredible in certain pools (I already knew this) and Marlena as a denial piece is amazing. I do definitely feel that this is a better list for fixed master. Granted Outcasts have better generalists, but I honestly had such a blast playing them in this way I just didn’t care. Last note in this incredibly long post, I’m no longer sure about Sisters in Fury on Ashes. I used it once in both games and it didn’t feel entirely necessary. Wondering about swapping it out for Oathkeeper. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndiU Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 22 minutes ago, Zebo said: But Hannah can also copy Sisters in Fury from Ashes don't? No, target non-leader model... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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