Big Jake and GG2018

[Zebo]

Has Big Jake's I'll Finish This Fight any effect on GG 2018 strategies? 

[Adran]

 3 of the 2018 strategys will make use of him counting as 2 models, Ours, Ply for information and Public execution. 

 

[Haagrum]

17 hours ago, santaclaws01 said:

There's also no reason not to, and for any strategy that doesn't only care about bodies like Extraction, Turf War, and the previous quarters strategies, the exact same reasoning for them not counting their SS cost twice for ours can be applied to Ply and Execution. There's exactly as much reason to assume that the second model it counts as having the required condition as there is to count it as having the same SS cost.

No reason except that the words which would make that clear are not on the cards. A TO can rule it however they please, but it's not a necessary or inevitable interpretation (as evidenced by this discussion).

I think a FAQ entry is needed to settle this more permanently.

[Paddywhack]

So if they would count as two models in Interference, and that wasn't seen as OMG OP, then why would counting them twice for Ours!, the replacement really of Interference, be such a huge concern? In the end its more or less the same thing. The problem is only now that there are spammable models that can do this whereas Big Jake was a unique model. 

I'm not as sure about the Conditions being transferred to the 'second' model myself, but I can see it both ways. There is also the issue with Public Demonstration, which is not a condition at all. 

[Ludvig]

He doesn't count for Ours! since he was summoned. Should be fine in the others as far as I can tell from a glance.

[Zebo]

Sorry, just noticed 2 strategies where it has effect. No questions. 

[Franchute]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

He doesn't count for Ours! since he was summoned. Should be fine in the others as far as I can tell from a glance.

The part that it is not clear is not the summoning one with ours but what happens with I'll finish this fight.

[Ludvig]

Oh, I went for what I thought was the ability since no quote was provided.

He would count as two models costing whatever it is he costs, think it's 5 or 6? You never add merc tax of course. For the others it's pretty obvious, he counts as two models on your side having the condition if he manages to get it.

[Davos]

On 1/8/2018 at 6:21 AM, Ludvig said:

He doesn't count for Ours! since he was summoned. Should be fine in the others as far as I can tell from a glance.

He only gets summoned turn 5 if he's died.  As long as he hasn't died, he will always count for Ours scoring

[Ludvig]

1 hour ago, Davos said:

He only gets summoned turn 5 if he's died.  As long as he hasn't died, he will always count for Ours scoring

Yes, I am aware that he doesn't start the game as a summon, the quesion was inrelation to a specific ability which wasn't quoted so I assumed it was the ability about coming back. You'll also notice Franchute notified me that it was his other ability that was being discussed. Thanks anyway though!

[Paddywhack]

On 1/8/2018 at 5:48 AM, Adran said:

 3 of the 2018 strategys will make use of him counting as 2 models, Ours, Ply for information and Public execution. 

 

The real question is how does he count for 2 models exactly, especially for Ours!? This applies to Bone Piles and Tanuki as well. The argument is whether or not counting as two models means you count their SS twice? I believe during the Beta we were told to do it this way, but there was never an official ruling as far as I can recall.

I think Ply and Public Execution are a little easier.  If they have the Gathered Intel/Shed Blood condition they counts as 2 models with the condition, yes?   

[Davos]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Yes, I am aware that he doesn't start the game as a summon, the quesion was inrelation to a specific ability which wasn't quoted so I assumed it was the ability about coming back. You'll also notice Franchute notified me that it was his other ability that was being discussed. Thanks anyway though!

Sorry bout that, I missed the post from Franchute.  I've gotten lazy with my reading recently...

[Haagrum]

On 18/01/2018 at 4:07 AM, Paddywhack said:

The real question is how does he count for 2 models exactly, especially for Ours!? This applies to Bone Piles and Tanuki as well. The argument is whether or not counting as two models means you count their SS twice? I believe during the Beta we were told to do it this way, but there was never an official ruling as far as I can recall.

I think Ply and Public Execution are a little easier.  If they have the Gathered Intel/Shed Blood condition they counts as 2 models with the condition, yes?   

That's really the question. A complicating point is that Ours asks about Soulstone costs specifically, whereas Ply and Public Execution refer to the number of models.

Given the different wording, I can't see why you'd double-count the Soulstone cost for Big Jake. His rules pre-date GG2018, so it's understandable why they wouldn't expressly refer to counting his cost twice. That said, there's no reason to "read in" that you should count him (or Tanuki, or a Bone Pile) twice for Ours, because that strategy specifically refers to Soulstone cost and not to model count.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, Haagrum said:

That's really the question. A complicating point is that Ours asks about Soulstone costs specifically, whereas Ply and Public Execution refer to the number of models.

Given the different wording, I can't see why you'd double-count the Soulstone cost for Big Jake. His rules pre-date GG2018, so it's understandable why they wouldn't expressly refer to counting his cost twice. That said, there's no reason to "read in" that you should count him (or Tanuki, or a Bone Pile) twice for Ours, because that strategy specifically refers to Soulstone cost and not to model count.

There's also no reason not to, and for any strategy that doesn't only care about bodies like Extraction, Turf War, and the previous quarters strategies, the exact same reasoning for them not counting their SS cost twice for ours can be applied to Ply and Execution. There's exactly as much reason to assume that the second model it counts as having the required condition as there is to count it as having the same SS cost.

[WWHSD]

Today's FAQ gives an official answer to this. Ours is the only strategy that "I'll Finish This Fight" makes a difference in, making Big Jake worth 10 soul stones for scoring his quadrant.


 

89. How do models with an Ability that lets them count as two models impact the different Strategies and Schemes (where it may be relevant)? For example, on Big Jake, the Tanuki, and Bone Pile.
Models that count as two models do so, but the “second” model is not considered to have any Conditions, effects, etc on the first. If the model only counts when determining VP, such as Big Jake, it works slightly differently. (3/1/18)

Below are Strategies where these Abilities are relevant.

• Ours - The model’s cost counts twice.
• Ply for Information - The Condition is only on one model.
• Public Executions - The Condition is only on one model.
• Headhunter - Models that count as two drop two Markers. Models that count as two for scoring drop one.

Below are Schemes, so are only relevant to models that count as two for Schemes (such as the Bone Pile).

• Hold Up Their Forces - The model counts as two.
• Inescapable Trap - The model counts as two.
• Recover Evidence - The model may be selected twice for two Markers.
• Public Demonstration - The duplicated model is not also named, so it only counts once.