Arcanist Errata

[Adran]

12 hours ago, Rillan said:

Except  Captain it more looks like Arcanists got buff cause Wyrd  had to buff something.  Most of beasts still wont be hired, i will give a chance to Captain, but so far Joss looks much more. Realy dont get it why Wyrd didnt do anything with Mech Rider. I wish this card would be changed but so far it only in my dreams.... Below average damage, kinda shitty summon and short shoot range is disgusting. I expected they change something from those 3. It would be perfect if Arcanists had Pale Rider for 10 SS. 

I was kinda sceptical abous Johan, and now i wont hire it anymore. Thx God Hans got cheaper! 

You do know that Mech Rider is the most errata'd card in the game? And it received Erratum in July?  I'm not surprised that the other 3 got reduced, but 2 ss is slightly surprising

 

Personally I hired about half the list that got reduced in cost, so will see how it goes with those extra stones. But on the whole it does seem to make people at least look at what they pick now, and so change up the lists a little 

[Mxbedlam]

My 2 cents (not that its worth that much all in all): Johan (now a no hire to very niche. Too expensive with other options in the faction).  Captain (went from never hire to sometimes. He could do some work in Show of Force but ultimately he's still very squishy for 9ss and his mandatory upgrade hurts him). Cojo at 6ss (Marcus will take him now. I think the monkey has some counter play in schemey pools). Rattlers at 6ss (I like them. Tanky for 6ss. Add a steamfitter and if Myranda sticks around they can do work. Also its funny to alpha a master who's in melee with them and have him die trying to walk away). Ice Golem 9ss (meh. might get a summon every now and then, never hire still). Dawn Serpent 9ss (will see play with Marcus). Shikome 7ss (meh. flight is somethign we don't have a huge amount of access too but meh). Porkchop 6ss (Mei buff. not a substantial one but any spare SS will do. Still an auto include in her lists). Trapper 7ss (doesn't effect us in the slightest) Students ss reduction (meh. Sandeep has better options that aren't so niche pick)   

[Rillan]

7 hours ago, Adran said:

You do know that Mech Rider is the most errata'd card in the game? And it received Erratum in July?

I know, and for me Rider is garbage now. If i would need to take expensive model i would take Howard or SnowStorm instead,  they are stronger for same cost. 

[Adran]

24 minutes ago, Rillan said:

I know, and for me Rider is garbage now. If i would need to take expensive model i would take Howard or SnowStorm instead,  they are stronger for same cost. 

Card draw, scheme dropping, summoning and extra mobility is a very good package for scoring VPs. And they are all secondary to its AP use. 

Its not a model that I find competes with Howard as they do completely different things. 

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

1 hour ago, Mrbedlam said:

My 2 cents (not that its worth that much all in all): Johan (now a no hire to very niche. Too expensive with other options in the faction).  Captain (went from never hire to sometimes. He could do some work in Show of Force but ultimately he's still very squishy for 9ss and his mandatory upgrade hurts him). Cojo at 6ss (Marcus will take him now. I think the monkey has some counter play in schemey pools). Rattlers at 6ss (I like them. Tanky for 6ss. Add a steamfitter and if Myranda sticks around they can do work. Also its funny to alpha a master who's in melee with them and have him die trying to walk away). Ice Golem 9ss (meh. might get a summon every now and then, never hire still). Dawn Serpent 9ss (will see play with Marcus). Shikome 7ss (meh. flight is somethign we don't have a huge amount of access too but meh). Porkchop 6ss (Mei buff. not a substantial one but any spare SS will do. Still an auto include in her lists). Trapper 7ss (doesn't effect us in the slightest) Students ss reduction (meh. Sandeep has better options that aren't so niche pick)   

You forgot Hoarcats. At 4ss they seem quite good, actually. 

The captain will see a lot more play in my games. God, how I always loved his model and how useless he were. 

Cojo seems really good in basically every schemey pool and good in Wagons (as a cheap 50mm base to move it). 

Johan maybe will still have a place in Ply and/or Public Execution.

[Rillan]

24 minutes ago, Adran said:

Card draw, scheme dropping, summoning and extra mobility is a very good package for scoring VPs. And they are all secondary to its AP use. 

Its all about what do u prefer. Imbued Energies give me more card draw and when i realy want it.  Also there are better models fro shemes than Mech. OK Mech has a little from everything life shows that a guy who is good in everything is same bad in everything. 
P.S. forgive me my eglish if i said it wrong.

[Adran]

1 minute ago, Rillan said:

Its all about what do u prefer. Imbued Energies give me more card draw and when i realy want it.  Also there are better models fro shemes than Mech. OK Mech has a little from everything life shows that a guy who is good in everything is same bad in everything. 
P.S. forgive me my eglish if i said it wrong.

I would say that the fact that his last 4 iterations that have been toned down because he was seen too often and having too great an effect on the game suggest that there are some occasions where being good at everything is not a bad thing.

But you are competently right, its personal preference.I just wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the mechanical rider to get any better because too often he appears to be too good, at least for the way other people use him. 

Imbued energies only gives you control over your card draw if you put it on Myranda (or you kill your own crew), and may not give you more cards, it is all in one go though. 

There aren't many better models for dropping scheme markers near enemy models.

 

[Rillan]

9 minutes ago, Adran said:

too often he appears to be too good, at least for the way other people use him. 

It could be fixed very easy.  First of all Mech is Construct and anything that is constructed by human hands supposed to defend or attack. Just remove summoning  ability and give something that will improve its sustain or damage as it suppose to be. As i see from Erratas all the problems comes from summoning option and Arcanists have huge 4SS construct pool. If Mech would get some def or atk buff for exchange of summoning it would solve it all. Otherwise Mech always be either useless or too strong. But if Wyrd going to make it hard and Errata every six month cards they wont go any far away. Hardly think people like to pay every six months for new cards and other surprises that either make models useless or auto-take.

[Mxbedlam]

48 minutes ago, Frollo the Wordbearer said:

You forgot Hoarcats. At 4ss they seem quite good, actually. 

The captain will see a lot more play in my games. God, how I always loved his model and how useless he were. 

Cojo seems really good in basically every schemey pool and good in Wagons (as a cheap 50mm base to move it). 

Johan maybe will still have a place in Ply and/or Public Execution.

Fair. 4ss Hoarcats and 6ss cojo definitely have a place in Wagons. however that scheme won't come up too often. I think that 2018 will focus less on cheap activations though and more on survivable activations. Many of the strategies involve having conditions on your models and keeping them alive. Which will place emphasis on tankier, durable models like Joss and will really turn the Steamfitter up a notch. 

[WWHSD]

7 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

My 2 cents (not that its worth that much all in all): Johan (now a no hire to very niche. Too expensive with other options in the faction) ... Trapper 7ss (doesn't effect us in the slightest) 

Johan and the Trapper were two mercs that brought Arcanists something that they had no access to in faction (Offensive Condition Removal and Sniping) so it's kind of crappy to see them get more expensive. 

[Scatterbrain]

56 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Johan and the Trapper were two mercs that brought Arcanists something that they had no access to in faction (Offensive Condition Removal and Sniping) so it's kind of crappy to see them get more expensive. 

Maybe that'll mean more Hans over Trappers in lists? Obviously, if someone needed two snipers, they can only ever take the one Hans...

[Franchute]

21 minutes ago, Scatterbrain said:

Maybe that'll mean more Hans over Trappers in lists? Obviously, if someone needed two snipers, they can only ever take the one Hans...

If somebody wants to play sniper heavy, maybe this person should play another faction 

[Scatterbrain]

Just now, Franchute said:

If somebody wants to play sniper heavy, maybe this person should play another faction 

Fair call!

In other news:

• Hoarcat Pride (Cost -1)
• Slateridge Mauler (Cost -1)
• Razorspine Rattler (Cost -1)
• Cojo (Cost -2)
• Wild Boar (Cost -1)
• Spawn Mother (Cost -1)
• Shikome (Cost -1)
• Dawn Serpent (Cost -1)

Looks like good news for Marcus beast lists! I chose the right first Master! 

Decrease in Mechanized Porkchop may help Mei Feng, even if Johan's increase does not.

[Fictor]

15 hours ago, Rillan said:

It could be fixed very easy.  First of all Mech is Construct and anything that is constructed by human hands supposed to defend or attack. Just remove summoning  ability and give something that will improve its sustain or damage as it suppose to be. As i see from Erratas all the problems comes from summoning option and Arcanists have huge 4SS construct pool. If Mech would get some def or atk buff for exchange of summoning it would solve it all. Otherwise Mech always be either useless or too strong. But if Wyrd going to make it hard and Errata every six month cards they wont go any far away. Hardly think people like to pay every six months for new cards and other surprises that either make models useless or auto-take.

+1000

Mech Rider do a lot of thing, he can do all, but all things that him do, do bad, you pay an expensive cost for his toolbox, but he doesn't do anithng good, like Howard hitting or Carlos tanking.

When I see Howard I think 'I must kill him before he obliterate my crew', when see Nurse 'Keep distance to avoid his conditions or have my key models near Effigy' and the same on importat enemy models, but if see a Mech, I never keep it in my mind, he can do many things but none really important.

[Adran]

16 hours ago, Rillan said:

It could be fixed very easy.  First of all Mech is Construct and anything that is constructed by human hands supposed to defend or attack. Just remove summoning  ability and give something that will improve its sustain or damage as it suppose to be. As i see from Erratas all the problems comes from summoning option and Arcanists have huge 4SS construct pool. If Mech would get some def or atk buff for exchange of summoning it would solve it all. Otherwise Mech always be either useless or too strong. But if Wyrd going to make it hard and Errata every six month cards they wont go any far away. Hardly think people like to pay every six months for new cards and other surprises that either make models useless or auto-take.

The mechanical rider isn't made by Human hands. Its something from Old Malifaux.

Regardless I disagree that constructs should only attack or defend, they should also make your life easier helping menial tasks, which is what most constructs do, and things like cards in and and scheme markers fit that (both of which have been erratad to get worse over time so its not just summoning that has been changed).

We already have several big hitting models. we don't need the rider to just be competing with Howard, Joss, cerberus and the rail golem, having it do something different is better for us

 

[Sklertic]

The Mech rider is fine at 12ss, it's a really strong model, and the summoning is quite good. I think the other riders should've been 11ss, not 10ss.

I think you guys are too quick to throw Johan in the trash. If 1ss breaks your lists, then you need to revise your lists, which I feel this errata will force some players to do, which can be a healthy thing for the game. Condition removal is good, but sometimes overvalued I feel like.

As someone who's been playing Marcus since 1.5 I can say, that I am very happy. I regularly hire the mauler, rattler, cojo and the hoarcats and thought they were fine for their cost. Hurray for me   

The rest is alright I think, and I'm looking forward to GG2018.

[retnab]

I tried Captain in a Ramos crew last night (with no Johan), and while I did end up losing he was a major reason why I got the VP that I did!  He pushed a Large Arachnid into charging position against his Vendetta target for an easy 3 VP, and I used his Eye of the Storm (which to be honest I forgot was on his card lmao) to push models into Ramos' Strike Markers for unresistable 3-4 damage!  I think Captain with Vox Populi Ramos might actually be a thing for forcing models into those Markers, I recommend it.

[Frollo the Wordbearer]

1 hour ago, retnab said:

I tried Captain in a Ramos crew last night (with no Johan), and while I did end up losing he was a major reason why I got the VP that I did!  He pushed a Large Arachnid into charging position against his Vendetta target for an easy 3 VP, and I used his Eye of the Storm (which to be honest I forgot was on his card lmao) to push models into Ramos' Strike Markers for unresistable 3-4 damage!  I think Captain with Vox Populi Ramos might actually be a thing for forcing models into those Markers, I recommend it.

Aye, Captain's pushes are good with Strike markers. As is Cojo, I think. 

[dancater]

Interesting that there appears to be two debate threads going here, one on the value of the Mech Rider and another on the value of the Captain.  The curious thing is they both are good models at doing tasks which are less tank-smash-engage-kill but more channeled towards subtle play, summoning, scheming, moving and either scoring themselves of getting models somewhere they need to be to either score or prevent scoring.

The essence of this conversation I think reflects the two parallel player paths which Malifaux (uniquely) emphasizes more than other games.  Certain people value WAR games and want a model which brings the pain or absorbs the hate, they subscribe to the kill and avoid dying and score schemes over the subsequent graveyard.  Others find love in the war GAME and want to come at you sideways, happy enough to kill nothing and lose models while they work you into an early VP hole which you cannot escape from even if you table their crew.

So ultimately discussion over the value of Mech Rider over tank/smash model 'x' is fruitless because you want to kill then Mech is kinda adequate and points expensive, but for shenanigans its your clockwork horse of points value joy.

Equally the Captain with his errata (-1 or -2 points depending how you frame 'his' upgrade) has suddenly become potentially valuable but again not in a capacity of tank/killing where several models still outshine him for points.  But now you can really play his movement and other tricks to advantage for a reasonable cost, which means you can spend the extra SS on the models you need for him to move them around and be useful.

5 hours ago, retnab said:

I tried Captain in a Ramos crew last night (with no Johan), and while I did end up losing he was a major reason why I got the VP that I did!  He pushed a Large Arachnid into charging position against his Vendetta target for an easy 3 VP, and I used his Eye of the Storm (which to be honest I forgot was on his card lmao) to push models into Ramos' Strike Markers for unresistable 3-4 damage!  I think Captain with Vox Populi Ramos might actually be a thing for forcing models into those Markers, I recommend it.

Look at that, literally an example, a fortnight ago the Captain cost 2SS more and instead of the large arachnid you'd only have the stones for a steam spider.  Now he force multiplies on a slightly bigger pool of models and thus the effective multiplier is greater.  But nevertheless he is still primarily a force multiplier and not a force applier and certain people will always prefer to play with direct application which regardless of his cost on his current abilities is not really his thing.  

I think its safe to say that used correctly into the right pool the Captain and the Mech Rider will score points and win games but high body counts is rarely the way they do it.  If that is your play style then these are value models.  If not then there are great Arcanist alternative.  Malifaux is a WAR GAME of options, you can bring a flamethrower or a candle, both will start a fire but only one lets you read a book.  The answer in an errata is making the models do what they are intended to do, for a reasonable cost if they are handled correctly, it is not to transform every model into a version of a flamethrower or a candle.

[Mxbedlam]

My main concern for Captain is looking at what he does vs what you want for the 2018 year. Wagons- He's 30 mm so not all that amazing but pushing models to keep up with the wagon isn't terrible.  Ours- he can do some killy stuff but in himself isn't very survivable unless you spend stones for masks to push away so I feel like Joss is better. Ply- Arguments could be made but I don't know how I feel about this in particular.  Public Execution- Same as Ours. you need killy but you also need tanky or you don't score points.  Symbols of Authority- He's not gonna get across the board, but he helps other models get across the board for you and his pushes + wind walls can keep people off hte walls. So he's a consideration.    As far as schemes, 3" melee is good for hold 'em. he's got a built in upgrade and can push people out for show of force. The rest I feel like he's pretty neutral on. 

[Adran]

5 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

.  Ours- he can do some killy stuff but in himself isn't very survivable unless you spend stones for masks to push away so I feel like Joss is better. 

Pushes can screw over Quarter maths fairly well. Thats why I'd be looking at him in Ours, for the ability to suddenly move my expensive models to quarters I can win from Quarters I can't even after they have activated. 

[Mxbedlam]

2 hours ago, Adran said:

Pushes can screw over Quarter maths fairly well. Thats why I'd be looking at him in Ours, for the ability to suddenly move my expensive models to quarters I can win from Quarters I can't even after they have activated. 

Fair. I just think a Saavy opponent is gonna see that and bomb him. Denying you 10ss and stopping you from having mobile models