Errata 2018 - your minds

[Adran]

12 hours ago, lame0 said:

I mean I guess I have two questions. 

1) why does it feel like when one of our models get nerfed its a hard nerf vs when other times (ex: mech rider) it keeps them playable?

My answers to question 1

Because you are looking at it subjectively. Comparing Merc Rider to Burt is probably fairer, whilst comparing Metal Gamin to stuffed pigs So I expect you will see Burt get used a lot still, but the fact you barely see a metal gamin hired is similar (And Pigapult wasn't nerfed at all. I guess you could compare it to Malifaux Raptor which was seemingly in most arcanist lists until practise production changed, and its now seen on  occasions)

[Ludvig]

Pigs could also have gone the rat way and only be hireable by a single master.

[PolishSausage]

or do a hiring limit per taxidermist/ pigapult

each allowing you to hire +2 to +3 stuffed pigs each ( so if you take 1 taxidermist you can only hire 3, if you take 2 taxidermists you can hire 6)

This would allow for semi-fluff lists and no longer mindless 2ss activation control pieces

[daniello_s]

Or as Trikk (as far as i remember) suggested - allow opponent to pass activation when Stuffed Piggies finishes his.

[trikk]

7 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

or do a hiring limit per taxidermist/ pigapult

each allowing you to hire +2 to +3 stuffed pigs each ( so if you take 1 taxidermist you can only hire 3, if you take 2 taxidermists you can hire 6)

This would allow for semi-fluff lists and no longer mindless 2ss activation control pieces

The issue here is you don't solve the problem. If you used SP as activation spam for pigapult you just swap one model and the crew and issue stay the same. 

It also binds them together which (as Temporary Shielding has shown) isnt the greatest way to go.

 

I think there are 2 issues with SP at 2SS: they provide too many free activations (so for me passing would.be great) and they are too tough for 2SS (they should drop to 3 wds at df4).

[edopersichetti]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

The issue here is you don't solve the problem. If you used SP as activation spam for pigapult you just swap one model and the crew and issue stay the same. 

It also binds them together which (as Temporary Shielding has shown) isnt the greatest way to go.

 

I think there are 2 issues with SP at 2SS: they provide too many free activations (so for me passing would.be great) and they are too tough for 2SS (they should drop to 3 wds at df4).

I'm all for dropping the stats but there is no way an exploding peon that does literally nothing else is worth 3SS, especially in a faction that has a lot of cheap, useful models! It might make sense, I don't know, in Arcanists or Ten Thunders (but I'd probably still pick a Raptor for the same cost).

So do whatever you wish but please fix this issue. There are so many proposals out there, they just need to be tested. Personally the passing solution is not my favorite - I'd be in favor of working on the cost a bit more or on hiring limitations, but whatever works.

[trikk]

I won't because I have 0 saying in that

There are multiple solutions but its hard to balance activation control vs usefulness.

I doubt thdy will be errated in the near future so that is a purely academical debate

[green-n-dumb]

I was thinking about gremlins and remembered about Lenny.
He was first in our cuddle party.
He costs 9. He is general-governor.
4 def 1 wp!!!, only hard to wound, 4 walk and 3 height.
Aura was nerfed, his push is like (1)! and he has no reckless.
Is there at any fractions such awfull models in 9-10 ss cost?
In my opinion we are forcing to take only cheap guys and our choise form 8-10ss ultrausefull henchmans are very limited:
Its like Trixie abd Francois, may be Fingers and First Mate.
Models like Whiskey Golem, Mancha, Emissary, Mctawish, Gracie, Gluttony are very situational and sometimes only 1 master playable and comparing to other factions 8-10ss guys are a little bit weak.
I dont like the way of going to lots of cheaper but glassy guys and having no guys who can say"HAHAHA WHAT CAN YA DO TO ME WITH YOUR 6 MELEE?? BWAHAHA TASTE MY 5\6\7" or having amazing manipulations, crowd control or other tasty tools in 8-10ss model pool of another factions.
And gg 18 tends to having guys who can survive and kill.

Its not angry criticism its just my thoughts after a weekend games.
 

[edopersichetti]

There's a lot of resistance by the community against Stuffed Piglets and the Pigapult. I understand playing against a shooting machine that shoots 24" ignoring LoS and Cover can be frustrating, but if it wasn't meant to be, why does the model exists in the first place? Also, there was so much noise about cheap 2SS activations that Stuffed Piglets were killed outright. Sadly, I doubt either of those will be fixed anytime soon.

Lenny and Emissary: yes, this is a terrible oversight. I find Lenny still somewhat playable, but he's definitely overcosted. Emissary is the clunkiest, weirdest, most poorly designed model in the faction. I understand changing the SS cost of an Emissary is beyond what Wyrd wanted to do, but something should be done because it is completely useless.

The only good news we can take is Survivors at 4SS: these can be quite useful. Other changes like -1 to Raphael will maybe encourage players to field him a bit more, but will most of the times compensate the +1 to Burt and Frank. Wild Boars also an option now.

But yeah, overall nothing will change much, players will still hire Frank and Burt and make room for the extra SS. Sad, very sad.

p.s. might I add Rami, he needed the SS adjustment even more than Raph, not sure why Wyrd completely ignored him...he's the only Kin that really has no reason to be played right now. The damage track is so poor...perhaps some major adjustment besides cost would be better.

[Pikciwok]

33 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

players will still hire Frank and Burt and make room for the extra SS. Sad, very sad.

I would say it's good, very good. These models don't lose their attractiveness after a point increase. That's the very best proof they were undercosted before.

[the tick]

56 minutes ago, Pikciwok said:

I would say it's good, very good. These models don't lose their attractiveness after a point increase. That's the very best proof they were undercosted before.

I suspect his point is more about the lack of other models in their capability bracket (rather than SS) in the faction. The "sad" part is that there isn't really another choice to fill those roles. But until 2018 really gets under way, this is all conjecture.

[PolishSausage]

1 hour ago, Pikciwok said:

I would say it's good, very good. These models don't lose their attractiveness after a point increase. That's the very best proof they were undercosted before.

so why did stiched/ doppleganger / fanc  stay at the current cost? ( franc got an actual buff for 1ss armor 1)

I say, lets give guild Francoise and we will take their Francisco, fair trade.. both are 8ss now......

[daniello_s]

6 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

There's a lot of resistance by the community against Stuffed Piglets and the Pigapult. I understand playing against a shooting machine that shoots 24" ignoring LoS and Cover can be frustrating, but if it wasn't meant to be, why does the model exists in the first place? Also, there was so much noise about cheap 2SS activations that Stuffed Piglets were killed outright. Sadly, I doubt either of those will be fixed anytime soon.

Lenny and Emissary: yes, this is a terrible oversight. I find Lenny still somewhat playable, but he's definitely overcosted. Emissary is the clunkiest, weirdest, most poorly designed model in the faction. I understand changing the SS cost of an Emissary is beyond what Wyrd wanted to do, but something should be done because it is completely useless.

The only good news we can take is Survivors at 4SS: these can be quite useful. Other changes like -1 to Raphael will maybe encourage players to field him a bit more, but will most of the times compensate the +1 to Burt and Frank. Wild Boars also an option now.

But yeah, overall nothing will change much, players will still hire Frank and Burt and make room for the extra SS. Sad, very sad.

p.s. might I add Rami, he needed the SS adjustment even more than Raph, not sure why Wyrd completely ignored him...he's the only Kin that really has no reason to be played right now. The damage track is so poor...perhaps some major adjustment besides cost would be better.

Franc and Burt are worthy 8SS (well, at least Burt definitely) so I'd say we will see them in Gremlin's crews still.

Lenny is sad panda and will stay this way until something will be done about him. Emissary might be used with Zoraida and Mah in Supply Wagons but he has so little synergy with other models it is painful.

I won't say anything more about Pigapult and Stuffed Piggies as they are 'dead models' at the moment. Piggies can be seen at least when Taxidermist is in the crew.

Rami - never used him. Don't think I will. I'd rather spend 7SS on something else. I was surprised when Ralph got -1SS price drop, not Rami...

[Runeman]

There is no doubt that Burt needed the increase in cost. I am a bit more sceptical about McTavish, but he was quite often seen in many crews, so the price hike is probably in order, particularly considering his value as a Glowy target. Also some of the models that he does have some synergy with were reduced, Wild Boars that is, so a crew with him and 2 Wild Boars will actually have saved one SS. I think he is more situational now, which in my mind is not really a bad thing.

Francois I think is slightly overcosted now. If one uses a Skeeter to transport and chain activate him, then he is probably dead, and the Skeeter has been put in harms way, the alternative is using him with Ophelia, where he can at least get a lot of the same mobility, but without the cost. Some alternatives have become cheaper, while he has become more expensive, so I think he is quite situational now.

On the other hand, Raphael is slightly underpriced, and in an Ophelia crew you'd often bring both, making the crew unchanged.

Mancha Roja seems appropriately costed to me, I think he can be a valuable tool in some setups either because one can threaten to paralyze enemy models using other models or because his Challenge Aura on a height 3 or even 4 model can really mess with the opponent. The decrease in cost doesn't make or break him, but it is definitely a boon.

Likewise the Whiskey Golem has become more attractive without being an autopick, so I think he is where he should be, though I'd prefer if Angry Drunk had something done to it. Comparing it to Francois, it does get the same number of actions, though the third one is a lot less flexible, but for one SS more, it also gains quite a lot of survivability, while the damage is lower than that of Francois, the difference is not extreme, and the amount of resources going into doing that damage are much more limited.

Moon Shinobi have an undeservedly bad reputation. They have a few abilities that can really make them worth their points, but they do need to be played well to really shine. First of all, they are probably one of the models in the game most likely to do severe damage, making them useful for Ply for Information. They can also sometimes push after the last activation of the turn but before scoring, and that can really make them a pain in Ours, as the opponent will have to factor them into his calculations for more than one table quarter. The same ability also increases their chance to get points from Hold Up Their Forces and Public Demonstration and perhaps Take Prisoner, for two of these schemes their 2" engagement range might also be an advantage. Finally, their defensive trigger makes them very interesting with Som'er, as they can sometimes be moved quite a lot before activating by using AP of lesser models using the mask Som'er in many cases would like to make available anyway, in particular those Piglets can really move them far by utilizing their (1) charges and if they hit their own mask trigger. I think their reduced cost makes them quite competitive.

All in all I think it is a nice errata. Gremlins didn't get as much out of it as some factions, but several of the changed models are a lot more viable now. Two of our less powerful masters got a big helping hand at least for casual games, where their starter crews were reduced by 3 SS and some models they might want to utilise were also reduced in cost. In a game like this, I think the goal should be that all models be situational but viable, and there is no doubt that we are closer to that goal now than before the errata.

[PolishSausage]

I spent a good deal of time looking over all 5 books this weekend.

In all honesty, soul stone up/down just does not work for us, we need a massive re-design/ overhaul across the board.

Every model or every- other model need a minor tweek/adjustment to make it usable.

 

There are 1-2 powerlists that I play from gremlins, and I get heavily scrutinized by local community for playing them. They combine out activation with alpha strike T1 and control on T2.

This play-style and crew allow me to dictate 1st and 2nd round of game. ( so NPE for opponents)

We just had a tourney this weekend ( I decided to play something different), I got hit with Colodi/Zoraida/Jack, all 3 crews were playing with free errata soul stones +3/+3/+6

Got "pooped on" is being quite generous of a description.

[daniello_s]

7 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

I spent a good deal of time looking over all 5 books this weekend.

In all honesty, soul stone up/down just does not work for us, we need a massive re-design/ overhaul across the board.

Every model or every- other model need a minor tweek/adjustment to make it usable.

 

There are 1-2 powerlists that I play from gremlins, and I get heavily scrutinized by local community for playing them. They combine out activation with alpha strike T1 and control on T2.

This play-style and crew allow me to dictate 1st and 2nd round of game. ( so NPE for opponents)

We just had a tourney this weekend ( I decided to play something different), I got hit with Colodi/Zoraida/Jack, all 3 crews were playing with free errata soul stones +3/+3/+6

Got "pooped on" is being quite generous of a description.

Out of curiosity - what did you use? Brewie or Ophelia maybe? 

[PolishSausage]

I did not actually play Gremlins in the tourney, but a rather silly/goofy arcanist list.

The 2 points I am making are:

1)  no gremlin representations at the tourney (because I have not played them)

2) all 3 opponents immediately used models from the errata that benefited them.

 

Looking at our SS errata I go "meh", Raph & Franc usually being a pair so no change.

[Runeman]

The models that got a price drop in the errata are pretty widely recognized as being at least slightly subpar and underrepresented on the table, that goes for all factions, so if other factions can use models that got a price drop in the errata to pretty got effect, why does the autoreaction here seem to be that our models are still unusable even after having their cost decreased?

Funny thing about two of the three masters you mention is that they have a rule that is meant to give them some decent protection, but against Moon Shinobi (you know those underused guys that recently dropped in SS price), those rules end up being a drawback. And actually two of the Neverborn models that did have their cost decreased also have such defensive abilities that are a drawback against Moon Shinobi. 

My point is that people should try to be a bit more open minded before declaring doom and gloom. Instead focus the criticism on real points like the interactions that force some models to go up in SS cost making them not really viable without that particular interaction. Here I think both McTavish and Francois suffer from that, if Ooo Glowy could only benefit minions (say it could affect 2 minions, but got a small price bump), I don't think they would have felt the need to increase the price of McTavish, likewise if the Skeeter didn't have such exploitable interaction with a few of our hardest hitters, Francois really wouldn't be a problem outside of Ophelia where he kind of should be a challenge for the opponent.

[Runeman]

On 19/1/2018 at 12:52 AM, trikk said:

I think there are 2 issues with SP at 2SS: they provide too many free activations (so for me passing would.be great) and they are too tough for 2SS (they should drop to 3 wds at df4).

Given that Guild Guard with one more Wp and Wd and 1 armor are 3 SS, not to mention the ability to get +2 Df, being a significant minion and having some attacks that can actually do something, I disagree with the latter part. 

[daniello_s]

The thing with some 'discounted' models is that they don't have specific tasks which other models wouldn't do better. Moon Shinobis for example are small hitters but IMO they are outshined by Bugs or Wrastlers. For 1SS more you can get Rooster who is far more mobile and can hit hard. Sometimes simple price drop won't fix the problem. It would need bit tinkering with abilities on their cards.

Of course some models did get nice buff with price drop: Survivors, Raphael, Golem or Mech Porkchop are good examples. 

[PolishSausage]

Yes, but even when looking at Ralph at 6ss, look at Tuco/Kade. I would trade for either of these models in a heartbeat. 

I mean come on, look at the damage output of Kade and compare it to Burt ( especially now that Burt can be charged and cannot pawn attacks. Also his friends that he used to pawn attacks onto, stuffed piglets, got killed by nerf )

 

Since we are "random fun faction" please give us stitched or make them dual faction, since they are in spirit of Gremlins randomness (fun fact, they are sooo not random and roll people over with 3/4/7 flips)

[PositronMike]

I think one of the biggest impacts on why some gremlin players are so despondent about the increase in cost of Burt and Franc is to do with the lack of high min damage attacks we have. 

Normally min damage 3 is something people tend to class a good beater model as having. If you go through gremlins and just look at models with a printed min damage value of three or higher ignoring triggers on a 1 ap attack this is the list I have found:

Lenny, Whiskey Golem, Old Major, The Sow, Lucky Effigy, Lucky Emissary. That is 6 models across the faction and all bar the emissary are book 1 and 2 models. 

Other models can get higher than min damage 3 if they use triggers however the only 2 that have the trigger built in are Burt and Franc. So there are 8 models that can reliably hit min damage 3 or higher on a 1 AP attack, 3 have been cuddled, 1 has been buffed, 1 has an attack stat of 3 and one hardly sees play as it doesn't synergise very well with the rest of the faction. 

If you were to go to another faction and cuddle nearly 40% of their min damage 3 beaters you would probably see the same outcry. I think the errata has actually been good for Gremlins as it will hopefully change which models see play although in my experience so far GG18 is causing a much bigger shake up than the errata.  

 

[Peppi]

On 18/1/2018 at 3:23 PM, Adran said:

My answers to question 1

Because you are looking at it subjectively. Comparing Merc Rider to Burt is probably fairer, whilst comparing Metal Gamin to stuffed pigs So I expect you will see Burt get used a lot still, but the fact you barely see a metal gamin hired is similar (And Pigapult wasn't nerfed at all. I guess you could compare it to Malifaux Raptor which was seemingly in most arcanist lists until practise production changed, and its now seen on  occasions)

I read too many words ... too blah blah blah

the real disappointment is that the designers have followed a too simple way: + - 1 is not the case, we are not in elementary school. It's too easy.

the players are waiting for a serious revision of the rules of some models not only by +/- 1 point.

if you want to see Seamus again you have to review the whole Master and his mechanics and so on with many pieces.

the shortest way is often the worst

with respect

Peppi

[MeatAndFauxtatoes]

The biggest winner in the Gremlin part of the errata is Bushwhackers for me. At 6ss I considered them underwhelming as their "reckless" is conditional. But, at 5ss I think a Bushwhacker is a good deal.
 

• DF6, WP6, SH6, WD6 - these are still the stats of a 6ss model.
• 2/4/5 with their Rifles on a focused attack, ignoring cover.

It will be nice to be able to use the other 50% of Mah's crew box without feeling like I'm shooting myself in the foot.

 

[Dominion]

18 hours ago, Peppi said:

I read too many words ... too blah blah blah

the real disappointment is that the designers have followed a too simple way: + - 1 is not the case, we are not in elementary school. It's too easy.

the players are waiting for a serious revision of the rules of some models not only by +/- 1 point.

if you want to see Seamus again you have to review the whole Master and his mechanics and so on with many pieces.

the shortest way is often the worst

with respect

Peppi

 

so, you would have preferred to wait another year without any kind of change, instead of this quick errata that happens to make some models playable again because "I read too many words ... too blah blah blah"?

the full errata will come (maybe on a Third edition...) for now i'm happy with the changes