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Errata 2018 - your minds


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1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

also very negative play experience from dumb luck, lets just turn it to +1 dmg crit strike

Oh and stilts need to go to 2ss because we all use them, together with dirty cheater.

Also taxidermists are summoners need to go to 8ss increase. 

Reckless is such a powerful ability, all need to be changed to "drunk&reckless" for 2pts of dmg.

 

In the meantime gremlin community continues to shrink. Locally I only see 1-2 other players attempting to play the faction, and only using it for casual game nights.

Going back to "real factions" for tournaments.

Not sure if serious 

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The models that got a price drop in the errata are pretty widely recognized as being at least slightly subpar and underrepresented on the table, that goes for all factions, so if other factions can us

The pigapult doesn't do strats or schemes on its own, but it's at its most powerful when used as an enabler - just bring it for a ride in Interference with Som'er or Ulix and you'll see what I mean, y

I think one of the biggest impacts on why some gremlin players are so despondent about the increase in cost of Burt and Franc is to do with the lack of high min damage attacks we have.  Normally

1 hour ago, Somnicide said:

I think the issue is that Gremlins original design philosophy was kind of to embrace randomness.

I disagree. I don't think that Gremlins ever were all that super random. Random is a spice for them in the form of some mandatory triggers and such but things like Dumb Luck or Pigs and Roosters Charging around aren't really random as such as they can be controlled and the risks can be mitigated. Or the opponent can outwit you and you end up paying but that's the way it goes. I don't think that it is random per se.

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29 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

I disagree. I don't think that Gremlins ever were all that super random. Random is a spice for them in the form of some mandatory triggers and such but things like Dumb Luck or Pigs and Roosters Charging around aren't really random as such as they can be controlled and the risks can be mitigated. Or the opponent can outwit you and you end up paying but that's the way it goes. I don't think that it is random per se.

You could mitigate it, but in book 1 that was kind of the Kin's schtick - they were more disciplined and so didn't have the same randomness - proving the rule by being the exception.Having to declare triggers, Pig Charge, and by not having Bayou Two Card just as 3 examples of inherent randomness. There were options that you could buy to mitigate that luck dependence, things like Somer saying do it like dis, and Lenny handing out a suit that you could declare, having a gremlin within 2" of a pig. They have been moving away from that since then, because it is fundamentally flawed from a balance standpoint to be super swingy.

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I actually disagree that we are the random faction. If only because in book 1 we also had Brewie who did nothing for the random factor. Truthfully our only random units are Bugs, Bayous, and Pigs. Nobody really embraced the chaos, not even from a master standpoint. Somer is the closest but also has the most ways of mitigating it.

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I would like to know your opinion on some idea i got to help the pigapult. For me one of its big flaw it not lony its cost which skyrocketed with the stuffed piglet errata. But also that it can't do schemes/strats.

For example in ours you just have up on 8ss for the quarter controls (more with ammo). On gathered intel its a free condition distributor for ennemies. In shed blood it can't gain the condition at all (even within los).

One simple trick to help it would just be to turn the pigapult into a minion.

Wouldn't change so much i think.

What do you think about a chage like that? do i miss some silly synergy by turning it minion?

 

PS: there is the glowy problem with wong but not sure if it would be so broken to use the only glowy on it. and if it is you can had some rule to forbid it.

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2 minutes ago, Aegnor said:

I would like to know your opinion on some idea i got to help the pigapult. For me one of its big flaw it not lony its cost which skyrocketed with the stuffed piglet errata. But also that it can't do schemes/strats.

For example in ours you just have up on 8ss for the quarter controls (more with ammo). On gathered intel its a free condition distributor for ennemies. In shed blood it can't gain the condition at all (even within los).

One simple trick to help it would just be to turn the pigapult into a minion.

Wouldn't change so much i think.

What do you think about a chage like that? do i miss some silly synergy by turning it minion?

 

PS: there is the glowy problem with wong but not sure if it would be so broken to use the only glowy on it. and if it is you can had some rule to forbid it.

Glowwy Pigapult is a no. 

1) I think most factions have useless models

2) I think the Pigapult has a pretty unique mechanic that probalby should be changed

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I think @Somnicide has the right idea, and even if you argue that Gremlins aren't defined by randomness they most certainly are a faction of extremes.

They have models with extreme costs, extreme damage, extreme armor, extreme speed, extreme triggers and extreme AP. Those abilities are offset, to a varying extent, by some weaknesses. Problem with a design like that is that it is practically impossible to balance to different levels of player skill. A more experienced and skilled player will be able to utilize the strengths and mitigate the weaknesses of a model a lot better than a beginner. So how are you supposed to balance a faction like that? Should the beginner lose all his games against a faction that has simpler models? Should an experienced Gremlin player be able to dominate tournaments?

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2 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Wonder if after this errata and new GG18 this % will became even smaller.

I doubt that. Most people don't seem to be changing factions based on what's perceived as powerful.

Also, Franc and Burt are still very good at their new cost and McTavish wasn't the reason anyone was playing the faction, so I don't see why the errata would cause anyone to change factions.

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It would be more to happen due to GG18 and its specific with errata as additional thing in the background. I know many people have more than one faction and wonder if they drift from Gremlins towards their second faction rather than stick to green menace gang.

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Well, AP and activations were significantly more valuable during GG17 than they were when most models in M2E were developed and tested. So either wave 1 and 2 Gremlins are terribly balanced or GG18 won't hurt Gremlins that much.

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29 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

I do not remember a Gremlin taking #1 in any big event.

Also, from my tournament experience, Gremlins are a minority/non existent as a % of tournament population.

I think that is largely agreeing with Myyra. If you make the models much better, the top end players would dominate. But they are hard to learn to use for mid table players so they don't have a large number of players. Gremlins have put in some good results, and podiumed in some of the large events, but they don't have a huge number of players. 

To me that says if you are a good player, you can get similar results out of them as good players get out of other factions, but at the cost that its a steep learning'curve to do that well.

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I liked Grems book1&2, because of their lower cost "less survivable" models it always felt like a combined forces faction.

Required combination of internal buffs/activation control and many small models to take down the bug hitters of other factions.

I think many players shared this feeling and jumped on the gremlin hooch wagon.

 

I think now, we have less synergy than before, most of our crews relied on low cost hitters for GG2017.

The new changes increased the cost of our discount hitters, also reduced the cost of other faction mid-range models.

 

With this in mind in order to adapt we need to embrace the changes,:

Taxadarmists got a buff ( they did not get nerfed and have a new summon)

Survivors went down to 4ss and offer a ton of suitability over bayous ( having armor/htk is weird or reckless model)

I also think a single banjonista will be a huge control piece for us due to 2 passive bubbles and 2 nice range attack with volume minions we might have to take now.

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I have to say after my games today that survivors for 4ss are in a much better place. The sheer annoyance factor of them makes them worth the 4ss now as it takes a lot of AP to put them down. Their survivabillity combined with their :melee2 Ml attack that hits surprisingly hard they can cause a lot of problems for an opponent on the right table where they can stand in a bottle neck and make your opponent waste AP either walking round or killing them.

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2 hours ago, Aegnor said:

I would like to know your opinion on some idea i got to help the pigapult. For me one of its big flaw it not lony its cost which skyrocketed with the stuffed piglet errata. But also that it can't do schemes/strats

The pigapult doesn't do strats or schemes on its own, but it's at its most powerful when used as an enabler - just bring it for a ride in Interference with Som'er or Ulix and you'll see what I mean, you get an easy 4 points from using Launch'n to place models in scoring position while hopefully also denying your opponent 4 (and Interference is still in the GG2018 rotation, so this is still relevant). Public Demonstration is also back for 2018, which was hilariously easy in 2016 with the Pigapult, and the new errata giving us a couple more nice 5 stone minions makes getting 3 points on turn one pretty simple with the Pult.

IMO its shooting was never its strong point and shouldn't be its strong point because it isn't fun to play against since there's pretty much no way to counter it. You can't stay out of LoS, you can't use cover, and you probably can't even get close because it has a 24" range. And this is when it's not all that powerful, imagine how bad it would be if it was really strong.

 

My proposed rework basically involved merging its Bacon Load and Launch'n into a single more powerful attack. You needed one Ht1 model per attack, but it would also place them into base contact with the target. That way it reduces the overwhelming power of spamming Bayou Gremlins to win corners, but it was a more damaging attack to make up for it.

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On 1/12/2018 at 12:57 PM, Dogmantra said:

The pigapult doesn't do strats or schemes on its own, but it's at its most powerful when used as an enabler - just bring it for a ride in Interference with Som'er or Ulix and you'll see what I mean, you get an easy 4 points from using Launch'n to place models in scoring position while hopefully also denying your opponent 4 (and Interference is still in the GG2018 rotation, so this is still relevant). Public Demonstration is also back for 2018, which was hilariously easy in 2016 with the Pigapult, and the new errata giving us a couple more nice 5 stone minions makes getting 3 points on turn one pretty simple with the Pult.

IMO its shooting was never its strong point and shouldn't be its strong point because it isn't fun to play against since there's pretty much no way to counter it. You can't stay out of LoS, you can't use cover, and you probably can't even get close because it has a 24" range. And this is when it's not all that powerful, imagine how bad it would be if it was really strong.

 

My proposed rework basically involved merging its Bacon Load and Launch'n into a single more powerful attack. You needed one Ht1 model per attack, but it would also place them into base contact with the target. That way it reduces the overwhelming power of spamming Bayou Gremlins to win corners, but it was a more damaging attack to make up for it.

I would rather see Launch'n removed and its shooting ability improved but to each their own.

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On 1/13/2018 at 6:00 PM, Omenbringer said:

I would rather see Launch'n removed and its shooting ability improved but to each their own.

So you want to remove the cool unique thing that the Pigapult does and make the bit that people hate playing against stronger?

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On 14/01/2018 at 3:00 AM, Omenbringer said:

I would rather see Launch'n removed and its shooting ability improved but to each their own.

Launch is the only part working for now on the pigapult. And it's still very risky and expensive if you think about the public demonstration use of it. You have to send 3 paralized models with a total cost of 15+ within 4" of an ennemy enforcer+. the worst part is that you not even sure that you can do this after the ennemy activated everything now.

I saw someone propose in a post (don't remember the post nor the guy sorry you deserve credits dude) to have a unique ability that would launch someone and deal damage with it (kinda like ulix pig slingshot) and i find that a very cool idea.

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1 hour ago, Aegnor said:

I saw someone propose in a post (don't remember the post nor the guy sorry you deserve credits dude) to have a unique ability that would launch someone and deal damage with it (kinda like ulix pig slingshot) and i find that a very cool idea.

I think that was me, I was curious so I found where I'd posted my thoughts, and it was here.

 

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On 1/11/2018 at 10:06 AM, Aaron said:

I think most of the Gremlins hate has gone away in recent years. I think a lot of it was just a joke, and then it got into a weird place because of model releases coupled with how many things were just brand new.

I know it might feel like Gremlins are specifically being targeted... and I will say that they are, but not in a negative way. I don't see Gremlins as the best Faction (or a dumb Faction), and I haven't this entire time. Instead, I think they have historically had some issues as an overall Faction. Repeated errata has been an attempt to begin to fix some of the issues. This means there are a lot of adjustments, and any adjustments are not going to be loved.

I know that not everyone will agree with how things are done, and that Gremlins are probably the most upset because some of their key models were nerfed. I was hoping to offset this with some other cost adjustments. In the future, I believe this errata will make the next errata easier to target more models and continue to improve Gremlins for Gremlin players. I think this errata helps them both currently and for future adjustments.

I'm a Ten Thunders player, but after that I like Gremlins. I can at least promise you there's no hate on my end for the Faction. In fact, I rather like them and would love to see them to just be another Faction in the game -- where I currently think they sit in some sort of exceptionalism place, somewhat set apart.

I mean I guess I have two questions. 

1) why does it feel like when one of our models get nerfed its a hard nerf vs when other times (ex: mech rider) it keeps them playable?

 Like roosters, Lenny, stuffed piglets, & the pigapult seem pretty worthless and at least it is my understanding that they never see the table post nerf (I’m talking for hiring). Now I know you said that this errata makes it easier to make adjustments going forward but tbh it feels bad that now for 6 months we have a faction that is super lopsided and feels like most of its medium to high cost models are almost all medium-weak. I mean honestly other than Somer (and for magical models Wong) our masters don’t support our troops that well and we don’t have upgrades like debt to the guild or recalled training to make our models hit like a truck. So overall I just wish we could keep more of our pre errata good models playable. Also it feels like other factions got the pseudo nerf in that gg18 makes them worse off.... but we get the double whammy in that we got our good models nerfed and are also hurting because of how good we were in GG17 and how much worse we are in gg18.

2) why does it feel like we get neglected when it comes to our important faq questions? Personally I don’t use encouragement, lucky effigy or the lucky emissary because a huge part of what could/would make them playable is unknowns since there is no clear cut answer on the boards and we don’t know how it should be treated. 

Encouragement: does it work on a charge action? (if not it will probably continue to not see play.)

lucky effigy/ emissary: what constitutes a flip? Is it any card that is turned over for flipping or is it the selected flipped card (main thing for this is if the cards flipped off of positive or negative flips count for the rams abilities. I think every card on positive or negative flips count but it seems that according to the question on the boards it is unclear.)

Now I’m not sure if all (or any) of these would see much play even if they got the favorable faq but at the very least I would know what they do and not have to potentially argue rules at the table. I think all three could be cool but it’s been a long time and I think clarity is important (years for encouragement).

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@lame0

I think a few of the faq issues is because they touch on fundamental rules and a ruling either way would have consequences for the cire rules that are hard to predict. I know faq is not supposed to be seen as general but they very often get interpretated that way by us players. If for example every card flipped is a flip for the lucky emissary/effigy then that messes with several other abilities that rely on the wording flipped.

As for the lucky effigy it can also be taken by Collodi so any ruling needs to take into account if the designers really want to give Collodi that kind of boost. In that context the likely response would be to go with the worse ruling which would then screw with gremlins even more.

There are plenty of pretty big questions on non-gremlin models or base rules that still haven't made it to the faq after years of being ambiguous so I think your feelings of neglect is just that, a feeling.

Gremlins kind of suffer from having too "fun" rules that can turn them insane or just whiff. If you playtest with the explicit question "can this model completely break the bank for an X ss model" and engineer a situation to try and do that the answer is likely "Yes, this model did hella good and can probably be taken down a notch" because it's hard to collect enough data to make a good representation on the average performance. 

All that bring said I wholeheartedly agree that having issues that might cause arguments during games sucks. I would welcome errata to Encouragement that said ot could only be used when declaring an attack for example because it would be in line with the Levi errata on channel. Bonuses are generally granted on a "per attack" basis and not to charges unless the ability is worded to last an activation or turn.

I'm pretty pro errata myself, I don't mind printing new cards. Many other players are adamantly against errata but I much prefer printing an updated card over needing to reference the faq every other action because an awful lot of players (me included) have trouble keeping that in their memory at qll times so it often means you findnout the correct way to play it after having argued during the game and possibly played it wrong.

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10 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@lame0

I think a few of the faq issues is because they touch on fundamental rules and a ruling either way would have consequences for the cire rules that are hard to predict. I know faq is not supposed to be seen as general but they very often get interpretated that way by us players. If for example every card flipped is a flip for the lucky emissary/effigy then that messes with several other abilities that rely on the wording flipped.

As for the lucky effigy it can also be taken by Collodi so any ruling needs to take into account if the designers really want to give Collodi that kind of boost. In that context the likely response would be to go with the worse ruling which would then screw with gremlins even more.

There are plenty of pretty big questions on non-gremlin models or base rules that still haven't made it to the faq after years of being ambiguous so I think your feelings of neglect is just that, a feeling.

Gremlins kind of suffer from having too "fun" rules that can turn them insane or just whiff. If you playtest with the explicit question "can this model completely break the bank for an X ss model" and engineer a situation to try and do that the answer is likely "Yes, this model did hella good and can probably be taken down a notch" because it's hard to collect enough data to make a good representation on the average performance. 

All that bring said I wholeheartedly agree that having issues that might cause arguments during games sucks. I would welcome errata to Encouragement that said ot could only be used when declaring an attack for example because it would be in line with the Levi errata on channel. Bonuses are generally granted on a "per attack" basis and not to charges unless the ability is worded to last an activation or turn.

I'm pretty pro errata myself, I don't mind printing new cards. Many other players are adamantly against errata but I much prefer printing an updated card over needing to reference the faq every other action because an awful lot of players (me included) have trouble keeping that in their memory at qll times so it often means you findnout the correct way to play it after having argued during the game and possibly played it wrong.

Tbh I totally disagree on the point you made about collodi. I don’t think two of our model should be nerfed because of an op master that’s out of faction... if anything collodi should see an adjustment (gun symbol in his attack and add a ml range or he can’t make himself fast....or something) because making two of our borderline models bad because some out of faction master could abuses one of them should be the opposite of how faqs are decided.

in terms of encouragement I’m going to kind of disagree also. As is most people don’t take it because it’s a high cost upgrade (2ss), it doesn’t benifit Somer directly (unless Sammy takes it and then it’s super expensive), and it makes our squishy models even squishier when it’s used. The two models that would have benifit most from the ability to use encouragement to charge just got nerfed (franc and Burt) so honestly getting one faq that makes an upgrade playable would be nice. At least looking at survivors (our new playable model) it’s a pretty hard choice to use encouragement on the charge but if you had to do it per attack then it would never get used by them. Likely that’s the case for most of our models because both of our last remaining 7ss reckless model only have 6-7 wounds and trading half your starting wounds (+ 1 for reckless) for positive attack flips is a pretty terrible trade. Since we were talking about collodi above....compare encouragement and fated. Even just the 1/3 of fated where collodi hands out focus or defensive is stronger than encouragement (no charge faq) for gremlins.

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