Errata 2018 - your minds

[Runeman]

Also it gives no advantage if you're already on negative flip, like cover.

[trikk]

3 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

Pre this errata they had nothing to really compete with - other 3ss models were generally rare 1 or insignificant. Guild Hounds were probably the closest comparison but they're Rare 4 and insignificant.

Post errata it's not quite so clear cut and I agree that Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs both have some nice advantages. They both have better reliable damage tracks for example, and 5 wds on guild guard for 3 stones is pretty bonkers. I think Bayou Gremlins probably stil just win out for a couple of reasons though. Drunk & Reckless being the big one, getting one turn of 10" movement then an interact is amazing and if you get a point off it, that's a great investment. The other thing that keeps them up there I would say is Bayou Two Card. Ideally you don't want to spend too many resources on your chaff, so being able to get a sort of positive flip on anything you want without spending any cards really helps up their effectiveness.

I'm willing to be impressed by the other two though, the most powerful part of a Bayou Gremlin to me has always been that they are an activation for so cheap. Time will tell if Guild and Outcasts start to use spam tactics that I'm fond of.

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[Math Mathonwy]

7 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

Yeah, sure - before nerf nobody ever took them. Please, oh please, do mention their low cost was balanced by limiting how many of them one could hire! Though you're right at one thing, I give you that - hiring Stuffed Piglets is now inviable. Not because of point reduction of other faction's previously unappealing models; it's because the Gremlins have access to the very best 3 ss spammable significant minion in the game (Compare THIS to a Guild Guard!). Piglets are still good summons, and taxidermist has a chance to find its place in the crew after some auto-takes got a point increase. Don't worry - no one's planning to raise the cost of Bayou Gremlins.

I think that both, Stuffed Piglets and Bayou Gremlins should be comparable to Guild Guard in that all are 3SS.

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Great idea - let's break the game we love, purposefully! 

I think that's a very unfair reading of what edopersichetti wrote. Doppelganger is pretty bonkers and could easily have had her cost raised to 8SS. I don't think that there would be any more complaints about that than about anyone else whose cost was raised. So edo's point was that maybe people should be more vocal about such things.

Now, personally, I do agree with edo in the sense that loudness shapes at the very least the public opinion and that probably does have an effect. I mean, of course people should be honest in their criticisms, but I don't think that edo was suggesting dishonesty and shouting stuff down in order to get an advantage from it as a faction as you seem to have read from it.

I dunno, the whole idea that someone would honestly think that seems rather bizarre.

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You don't want to notice that players complained about things in other factions, too. Misaki lost her ability to deal ~30 pts of damage in alpha strike, for example.

Which was rather needed yes. But it's a bit different from McTavish's price increase, I think. Nurse, Yasunori, and Terracotta Warrior are better comparisons.

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Not a good idea. I'm gonna ignore the fact you've suggested to ruin Mercenary mechanics just to save yourself from discomfort of slightly modifying the list you keep using. The most competetive Guild master, Nellie, could still hire your undercosted models ignoring the merc tax.

"Ruin Mercenary Mechanics" is maybe going a bit far, don't you think? I mean, he did merely suggest raising the Merc tax by one for two models. Some models in fact had this rule in the first edition. It is a valid point that it wouldn't help with the Nellie problem.

[Dogmantra]

I did call Bayou Two Card a "sort of" positive flip because as yall pointed out, a real positive is better, but as Adran said, for speculative attacks it's good, as well as lots of defense flips in my experience (if min damage would kill them anyway is a good example), plus things like disengaging strikes where there's not really any risk if you fail. The reason I flag it up is because one of the weaknesses of bringing lots of models is that you still only have six cards. There are different ways to get around it, but the ability to just say "nah I'll try again" when you flip an ace is really good and makes Bayou Gremlins hit above their weight.

[trikk]

15 minutes ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Now, personally, I do agree with edo in the sense that loudness shapes at the very least the public opinion and that probably does have an effect. I mean, of course people should be honest in their criticisms, but I don't think that edo was suggesting dishonesty and shouting stuff down in order to get an advantage from it as a faction as you seem to have read from it.

True. But at the same time its not like some people have a weird hate towards Gremlins and want to nerf them purposefully. And also its not like one person`s opinion is an indicator of whatever something is too good or not. What I mean by that its not like some trikk dude said "BURT IS OP" and suddenly Wyrd decided to change it.

I have no problems with people being vocal about their honest opinions but if you look at Outcasts they got hit really hard too and I see a lot less complaints from Hamelin players that Ashes is rubbish now

[lame0]

4 hours ago, Pikciwok said:

Yeah, sure - before nerf nobody ever took them. Please, oh please, do mention their low cost was balanced by limiting how many of them one could hire! Though you're right at one thing, I give you that - hiring Stuffed Piglets is now inviable. Not because of point reduction of other faction's previously unappealing models; it's because the Gremlins have access to the very best 3 ss spammable significant minion in the game (Compare THIS to a Guild Guard!). Piglets are still good summons, and taxidermist has a chance to find its place in the crew after some auto-takes got a point increase. Don't worry - no one's planning to raise the cost of Bayou Gremlins. 
 

Great idea - let's break the game we love, purposefully! 
You don't want to notice that players complained about things in other factions, too. Misaki lost her ability to deal ~30 pts of damage in alpha strike, for example.
 

Not a good idea. I'm gonna ignore the fact you've suggested to ruin Mercenary mechanics just to save yourself from discomfort of slightly modifying the list you keep using. The most competetive Guild master, Nellie, could still hire your undercosted models ignoring the merc tax.



It's disappointing that some players see erratas as a way to gain the upper hand over others. The power of your sophisms know no bounds - you're basically a Sergey Lavrov of rules evaluation.

I don’t understand you make it seem like a special rule can’t be added to the card. If Burt/McTavish had an ability that strictly said at any time they are hired outside of faction they cost one additional soul stone then it would still impact Nellie and make them cost 8/11ss (so she still gets a benifit but not the full one.) I honestly don’t see myself taking Burt ever now. he was maybe 1/2 stone under costed and now he just doesn’t make sense compared to the 3 cheap models (bug, slop, survivor) or Raphael. Tbh it was always close for me to choose between Burt + dc vs two lightning bugs (8 vs 10 ss prior to errata) but now choosing between Burt + dc vs a lighting bug + survivor for the same 9ss has definitely shifted my selection towards the smaller guys.

Trying to compare misaki to Burt is stupid. Misaki could kill half your crew with very few ways of mitigating the damage. Especially in 10tt when you could also push her up half the board. It led to a terrible player experience since the game could winde up being over the turn it begun. (I think the Viks being unburried by the scion of blood is similarly stupid and should have also got nerfed but...it didn’t)

Also like I said it would be different if it felt like we were getting new models or play styles over the past year. We have not and just got nerf after nerf. Book 5 gave us a grand total of 0 game altering models. We got maybe 1 niche pick that will rarely if ever see the table and a summon only model (4ss for a flying piglet lol). 

Bayou gremlins while decent are only  “good” with two masters in the faction. Somer makes their shooting more reliable / he summons them and Zipp gives them a way to hand out mood swings. In all other cases they are worse than guild guard / desperate mercs....especially since Both have better or equal stats (except wk) and other stuff...The only thing a bayou really has is drunk and reckless which does work sometimes but often does not get used (healing a scheme runner that most likely ran off to...scheme run seems rather unlikely). Also ashes and dust costing 1ss more makes such a small difference in terms of what it does for Levi and Hamlin...it’s a 7% increase so if you were paying it before chances are you’d be willing to pay for it now.

Lastly I think the model that could have used a -1 ss is the rooster rider. I know many people think of them as the op model of old but they shouldn’t be relegated to unplayable forever. Basically all the other riders (except mech) went down to 10 so the roosters should have gone down to 5 (maintain half cost). At 5 ss I would totally consider roosters again. As is though why would I take a rooster over Raphael or pere at the same cost. At 5 I could see roosters having reasonable trade offs between them and bugs/slops.

 

[trikk]

9 minutes ago, lame0 said:

I don’t understand you make it seem like a special rule can’t be added to the card. If Burt/McTavish had an ability that strictly said at any time they are hired outside of faction they cost one additional soul stone then it would still impact Nellie and make them cost 8/11ss (so she still gets a benifit but not the full one.) I honestly don’t see myself taking Burt ever now. he was maybe 1/2 stone under costed and now he just doesn’t make sense compared to the 3 cheap models (bug, slop, survivor) or Raphael. Tbh it was always close for me to choose between Burt + dc vs two lightning bugs (8 vs 10 ss prior to errata) but now choosing between Burt + dc vs a lighting bug + survivor for the same 9ss has definitely shifted my selection towards the smaller guys.

Trying to compare misaki to Burt is stupid. Misaki could kill half your crew with very few ways of mitigating the damage. Especially in 10tt when you could also push her up half the board. It led to a terrible player experience since the game could winde up being over the turn it begun. (I think the Viks being unburried by the scion of blood is similarly stupid and should have also got nerfed but...it didn’t)

Also like I said it would be different if it felt like we were getting new models or play styles over the past year. We have not and just got nerf after nerf. Book 5 gave us a grand total of 0 game altering models. We got maybe 1 niche pick that will rarely if ever see the table and a summon only model (4ss for a flying piglet lol). 

Bayou gremlins while decent are only  “good” with two masters in the faction. Somer makes their shooting more reliable / he summons them and Zipp gives them a way to hand out mood swings. In all other cases they are worse than guild guard / desperate mercs....especially since Both have better or equal stats (except wk) and other stuff...The only thing a bayou really has is drunk and reckless which does work sometimes but often does not get used (healing a scheme runner that most likely ran off to...scheme run seems rather unlikely). Also ashes and dust costing 1ss more makes such a small difference in terms of what it does for Levi and Hamlin...it’s a 7% increase so if you were paying it before chances are you’d be willing to pay for it now.

Lastly I think the model that could have used a -1 ss is the rooster rider. I know many people think of them as the op model of old but they shouldn’t be relegated to unplayable forever. Basically all the other riders (except mech) went down to 10 so the roosters should have gone down to 5 (maintain half cost). At 5 ss I would totally consider roosters again. As is though why would I take a rooster over Raphael or pere at the same cost. At 5 I could see roosters having reasonable trade offs between them and bugs/slops.

 

Ashes got hit way harder than 1SS with GG18 - he's pretty risky in 3 strats - I doubt he'll be seen as often.

 

Burt seems really fine and the fact he's substituted by ridicolous Lightning Bugs kind of proves that point. 

Bayou Gremlins also have BTC and 12" range compared to the desperate merc 8" and are summonable. I'm not saying they are way better but even without the master buffs they seem pretty equal to me.

I think 5SS reckless models kind of spoil Gremlin players because Wrastlers seem at least OK, Big Brain is very good vs NB, piglets are ok as summons. 1 crier doesn't seem awful with cranky and mah.

[PositronMike]

The changes with the biggest impact on Gremlins, from my viewpoint, are actually the changes to other factions. The alteration to Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs is going to have a bigger impact on Gremlins than the changes to the actual Gremlin models. The changes to Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs are altering the perception of the faction for some. Gremlins used to be the cheap, comical, fall over to a stiff breeze but able to do incredible things when the stars align faction. With more factions having cheap (3ss or less) models and with the change to our faction wide 2ss model (stuffed piglets) going to 3ss we are no longer the cheap faction. 

The feel of the faction is being slow changed with erratas and new models and it appears that some of the key differences between all factions are being removed. As the factions all become more harmonized in feel Gremlins are losing some of the unique good points about the faction whilst keeping most of the unique negatives such as having models which must declare a trigger if able with triggers that are bad for them such as Ricochet on the Bayou Gremlins. I don't want to lose the negatives as they are what made the faction fun however we are losing the positives by virtue of the changes to other factions.

I am going to be trying out a lot more of an elite Gremlin list as I think with the errata it will be interesting to see how models like the Whiskey Golem and Mancha now fair compared to Franc and Burt. We also now have options to play a much more survivable list with the change to survivors.

The biggest issue for me with the state of the faction after all the erratas is still the internal balance of the faction due to two abilities Drunk and Reckless and Reckless. These are just such powerful abilities that it means that out  of 2 models with the same cost one of which has Reckless and one which doesn't you will almost always take the one with Reckless. This is even more evident at the bottom end of the cost scale. I don't see any way around this state of affairs in this edition which is a shame.

[lame0]

8 minutes ago, PositronMike said:

The changes with the biggest impact on Gremlins, from my viewpoint, are actually the changes to other factions. The alteration to Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs is going to have a bigger impact on Gremlins than the changes to the actual Gremlin models. The changes to Guild Guard and Desperate Mercs are altering the perception of the faction for some. Gremlins used to be the cheap, comical, fall over to a stiff breeze but able to do incredible things when the stars align faction. With more factions having cheap (3ss or less) models and with the change to our faction wide 2ss model (stuffed piglets) going to 3ss we are no longer the cheap faction. 

The feel of the faction is being slow changed with erratas and new models and it appears that some of the key differences between all factions are being removed. As the factions all become more harmonized in feel Gremlins are losing some of the unique good points about the faction whilst keeping most of the unique negatives such as having models which must declare a trigger if able with triggers that are bad for them such as Ricochet on the Bayou Gremlins. I don't want to lose the negatives as they are what made the faction fun however we are losing the positives by virtue of the changes to other factions.

I am going to be trying out a lot more of an elite Gremlin list as I think with the errata it will be interesting to see how models like the Whiskey Golem and Mancha now fair compared to Franc and Burt. We also now have options to play a much more survivable list with the change to survivors.

The biggest issue for me with the state of the faction after all the erratas is still the internal balance of the faction due to two abilities Drunk and Reckless and Reckless. These are just such powerful abilities that it means that out  of 2 models with the same cost one of which has Reckless and one which doesn't you will almost always take the one with Reckless. This is even more evident at the bottom end of the cost scale. I don't see any way around this state of affairs in this edition which is a shame.

I like your analysis and I totally agree everyone else is getting better and we are no longer this amazing under costed faction even though the sentiment lives on... also for us to compete reckless is basically required right now. Without it basically all our models are bad. There is a reason we barely take non reckless stuff. I would also argue that most of our good reckless stuff has gone from slightly under costed to normal cost. I mean look at the hoarcat pride. That thing is a freaking monster at 4ss. Though survivors are a bit more survivable these things are 3/4/5 ml 5 and have a trigger for double + flips to damage. throw in a df/wp 5 and 6 wounds and devour these thing are super strong for the cost. Also I don’t think arcainists needed more broken stuff but it’s there... Steamfitter for 6 also awesome etc etc. Same goes for guild (monster hunters are amazing for 6ss). Resurrectionists got more great stuff than I can put down. Neverborn got bunraku, Lelu and baby kade all brought up to a very strong place.

So more than anything the mean has changed. before we were a little cheap and could trade well with glass cannons. Now lots of stuff is cheap more resilient and stronger and we keep getting worse because there is that sentiment that we are still so strong. Hell the best gremlin player in the world/USA more or less has given up on them not because of just this nerf but this constant nerf after nerf that has just put us behind the curve. (he’s less negative about them after his last video but it seems pretty obvious that he’s going neverborn because he thinks there’s a competitive advantage.) 

[Rathnard]

[MODHAT]I've just issued a warning related to one of the posts on this thread.

Please guys, keep it clean and keep it respectful. Debate on the errata is great, but if it descends into personal attacks again then I'm going to have to issue more warnings and if necessary, close the thread.[/MODHAT]

[generalbear]

1 hour ago, trikk said:

True. But at the same time its not like some people have a weird hate towards Gremlins and want to nerf them purposefully.

I think some People.do have a wierd hate of gremlins, forget the banter about not a real faction etc 

There is just down right hate for gremlins from some sections of the player Base. 

Yes francois was undercoated for his use, but I'd often see someone loose a master or big beater to him and cry about how broken he is.

Same as just last night o saw a guy claiming that thunders were hit too hard by this errata. 

This went on to say that the most broken model in the entire game is somer and has been for.4 years. 

On a personal level I can't ever manage to beat yan lol 

I don't cry and moan he's broken and unbeatable it's just something I can't do.

 

[Lucidicide]

I think most of the Gremlins hate has gone away in recent years. I think a lot of it was just a joke, and then it got into a weird place because of model releases coupled with how many things were just brand new.

I know it might feel like Gremlins are specifically being targeted... and I will say that they are, but not in a negative way. I don't see Gremlins as the best Faction (or a dumb Faction), and I haven't this entire time. Instead, I think they have historically had some issues as an overall Faction. Repeated errata has been an attempt to begin to fix some of the issues. This means there are a lot of adjustments, and any adjustments are not going to be loved.

I know that not everyone will agree with how things are done, and that Gremlins are probably the most upset because some of their key models were nerfed. I was hoping to offset this with some other cost adjustments. In the future, I believe this errata will make the next errata easier to target more models and continue to improve Gremlins for Gremlin players. I think this errata helps them both currently and for future adjustments.

I'm a Ten Thunders player, but after that I like Gremlins. I can at least promise you there's no hate on my end for the Faction. In fact, I rather like them and would love to see them to just be another Faction in the game -- where I currently think they sit in some sort of exceptionalism place, somewhat set apart.

[generalbear]

What do you mean set apart Aaron? 

[Lucidicide]

I mean that you get a baseline reaction if you say you play another Faction. If you say you play Gremlins, it's a different reaction.

They just are sort of seen a bit differently, is all. Not in a good or bad way.

[generalbear]

I totally agree 

My own love affair with gremlins goes back to just playing metal ophelia on her release its always been a hard Road to be gremlin player 

[Griautis]

to me, that is also reflected in the lore. Every faction does something big. Something setting moving from time to time, even if it's not known to the rest of them. Meanwhile, Gremlins do nothing/provide Zoraida some backdrop. 

[daniello_s]

Personally I'm just waiting for Reckless and Bayou Two Cards to be seriously cuddled or even removed during next errata as we have heard already many negative opinions about these abilities. Also i would expect some more models and one upgrade to be seriously trimmed. Yes, I'm looking at Wong and your minions and Magical friends 

 

[Aegnor]

6 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

Personally I'm just waiting for Reckless and Bayou Two Cards to be seriously cuddled or even removed during next errata as we have heard already many negative opinions about these abilities. Also i would expect some more models and one upgrade to be seriously trimmed. Yes, I'm looking at Wong and your minions and Magical friends 

 

Don't say things like that out loud. They may hear you and got some ideas.

[PolishSausage]

also very negative play experience from dumb luck, lets just turn it to +1 dmg crit strike

Oh and stilts need to go to 2ss because we all use them, together with dirty cheater.

Also taxidermists are summoners need to go to 8ss increase. 

Reckless is such a powerful ability, all need to be changed to "drunk&reckless" for 2pts of dmg.

 

In the meantime gremlin community continues to shrink. Locally I only see 1-2 other players attempting to play the faction, and only using it for casual game nights.

Going back to "real factions" for tournaments.

[PolishSausage]

Jeez, this is such a Doom topic. 

To add to the pain... is it me or our new best faction master is no longer gremlin (Zoraida) ? 

She even makes the Emissary worth taking, as well as Mancha, Sparks and Sammy

[PositronMike]

21 minutes ago, PolishSausage said:

Jeez, this is such a Doom topic. 

To add to the pain... is it me or our new best faction master is no longer gremlin (Zoraida) ? 

She even makes the Emissary worth taking, as well as Mancha, Sparks and Sammy

I would say that Zipp makes the Emissary worth it as well. I also like him with Wong where he may have become a better option after price increases to other models. 

[Dogmantra]

6 hours ago, lame0 said:

I honestly don’t see myself taking Burt ever now. he was maybe 1/2 stone under costed

Burt is pretty demonstrably worth at least 8 stones: he gets taken all the time as a mercenary, and people win big time with him. Pre this errata, if I wanted to win a game, I threw him into a crew. Doesn't matter which faction, doesn't matter which schemes, he went in. For most people, Burt did cost 8 stones, and they happily paid it. I don't agree with this assessment at all.

 

I think this is one of the reasons mercenary systems can be more trouble than they're worth. Guild Ball is phasing out their mercenary system if I remember correctly and I think it's going to do the game a ton of good. The issue is when you see the same models over and over despite the fact factions are supposed to prevent that from happening.

[daniello_s]

Burt is easily worth of 8SS. Franc was a problem mainly because Companion i think.

[Somnicide]

I think the issue is that Gremlins original design philosophy was kind of to embrace randomness. That randomness can make things more fun when things go well, but less fun when they don't, with the opposite experience from whomever you are facing. That is also why the more competitive* players tend to shy away from Gremlins in general and that they don't have as many top table wins - when you are playing to maximize your chance of winning, it is imperative to minimize the effect of randomness.

 

* I hate the use of competitive in this way and wish that there were a different word. I play to win every single game and am competitive, but often build less than ideal lists because I like theme.

[generalbear]

1 hour ago, PolishSausage said:

also very negative play experience from dumb luck, lets just turn it to +1 dmg crit strike

Oh and stilts need to go to 2ss because we all use them, together with dirty cheater.

Also taxidermists are summoners need to go to 8ss increase. 

Reckless is such a powerful ability, all need to be changed to "drunk&reckless" for 2pts of dmg.

 

In the meantime gremlin community continues to shrink. Locally I only see 1-2 other players attempting to play the faction, and only using it for casual game nights.

Going back to "real factions" for tournaments.

Not sure if serious