Adran Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 On 12/01/2018 at 7:29 PM, edopersichetti said: I can see more granularity would help, but I strongly disagree with the opinion that Stuffed Piglets were broken. "Broken" is a very strong word. What was problematic was only the fact that it was technically possible to hire 6 of them and gain an activation advantage, but the model itself is little more than a nuisance - that could have been easily fixed by limiting its hiring, not raising the cost. As you say, they are now useless To me the Suffed piglet change was one of intent. The intent of the stuffed piglets was to be harassing models that could be used as Pigapult ammunition. It was not the intent to use them as activation control. Changing them in your suggested way would have meant they were fairer in the current use, but would have meant that they were not as useable in their intended role. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 12 hours ago, edopersichetti said: This just supports what I'm saying. 3 in the top is fun and all, but if highest was 5th, they must not be as powerful as they are depicted... I think Guild will come out on top in 2018, with GG18 and the addition of new models/errata - it might need some time for players to adapt. Ressers also just received a huge boost with Kentauroi (talk about broken things...), so the only faction I'm actually concerned about is Nvb: errata was ok but nothing really crucial or that will substantially change things on the table... Highest guild was 10th and highest resser 15th. Arcanist win followed by 3 outcast then the gremlins and a thunder. Highest nvb was 9th So hardly supports what you are saying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 TBH anecdotal data doesn`t really support anyones point of view... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 We need to wait data from sources like logfaux.com or similar to see. Lot of data will average good and Bad players performance. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 minute ago, Aegnor said: We need to wait data from sources like logfaux.com or similar to see. Lot of data will average good and Bad players performance. I don`t think logfaux is a good source of data. I honestly prefer the ranking sites. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 Which one are you using. I know only logfaux but if you know more reliable one i will love to hear about them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 www.malifaux-rankings.com usa.malifaux-rankings.com pol.malifaux-rankings.com I think those 3 are the biggest but I might be wrong. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go Canucks Go Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 56 minutes ago, trikk said: www.malifaux-rankings.com usa.malifaux-rankings.com pol.malifaux-rankings.com I think those 3 are the biggest but I might be wrong. Wondering is there a site to see some of these guys lists? I can see all the standings but id be curious to see some of these lists. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 I only know the pol lists Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rillan Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Aegnor said: We need to wait data from sources like logfaux.com or similar to see. Lot of data will average good and Bad players performance. Logfaux is broken. Simply logical if someone has negative winrate then someone should have positive. Why everyone is negative ? If u start counting games and numbers go wrong too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argentbadger Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 1 hour ago, Go Canucks Go said: Wondering is there a site to see some of these guys lists? I can see all the standings but id be curious to see some of these lists. Malifaux doesn't really lend itself to recording lists since in theory every game's crew can be completely different; indeed, every faction has a choice of 8 masters so even recording that would be quite an undertaking. I record all my tournament experience in tedious glorious detail in the battle reports section of this forum (for which I suppose you can search by my username) and my blog (link in my signature); I normally float between about 10th and 15th or so in the UK rankings. Still speaking for the UK, many of the skilled players seem to be more active on twitter so if you use that tool you could possibly ask for more information from specific individuals. Regarding the impact of the errata, I look forward to seeing it. In general for Malifaux I've found that player skill is a bigger determinant in win/loss ratio than faction choice. This might be the wave/errata/GG that changes that but I've no particular reason to expect it. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tapdancer Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 First big tournament of the UK season cannot be seen as any indication of an emergent meta. It was three round so with 40 players it was a crap shoot even by normal tournament standards. Just a warm-up, GG18 is great, erratta (for TT players) was shit. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 (edited) 3 hours ago, Rillan said: Logfaux is broken. Simply logical if someone has negative winrate then someone should have positive. Why everyone is negative ? If u start counting games and numbers go wrong too. Didn't look so much the details to be fair. Didn't know it was so Bad. Is there a ranking site with data by masters? I know the game is supposed to be balanced by faction but i like to see where each master Land. Especially when you hear here and there stuff like 'outcast are shit but they have Hamelin so they are still competitive' or similar for sandeep Somer/wong Nellie. Edited January 15, 2018 by Aegnor French phone autocorrect Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaclaws01 Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 3 hours ago, Rillan said: Logfaux is broken. Simply logical if someone has negative winrate then someone should have positive. Why everyone is negative ? If u start counting games and numbers go wrong too. That's not how it works. There are 7 factions getting into random pairs of 2, including against themselves, with 3 possible outcomes. If you really think the winrates are wrong you can see the number of games played and won by each faction and do that math yourself. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 14 hours ago, Adran said: To me the Suffed piglet change was one of intent. The intent of the stuffed piglets was to be harassing models that could be used as Pigapult ammunition. It was not the intent to use them as activation control. Changing them in your suggested way would have meant they were fairer in the current use, but would have meant that they were not as useable in their intended role. Ok, right now the only use for them is as summons, I doubt that was the intention all along...like, the gremlin version of mindless zombies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 8 hours ago, katadder said: Highest guild was 10th and highest resser 15th. Arcanist win followed by 3 outcast then the gremlins and a thunder. Highest nvb was 9th So hardly supports what you are saying It does, it does...and in particular, it says just how badass Outcasts continue to be. Should we stop talking about Gremlins and open the Outcast chapter? Now that's a faction that needs a closer look... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 15 hours ago, trikk said: Can you give me an example of other factions strength and weaknesses in your opinion? Well for example Ressers were traditionally a faction made of tough, resilient models (I swear sometimes I'm facing a crew where every single model is HtW) but also usually slow, lacking strong shooting (which makes sense...) and not very "schemey". To compensate for being so slow, I suspect, the faction has access to one of the best Lures in the game (and one of the best models in the game overall, IMHO), the Rotten Belle. Crooligans and Necropunks are great scheme runners but they still do so "a-la Resser", being tougher than most other scheme runners and costing a little more. The faction used to win games by attrition using summoning (if I'm not wrong every single master is able to summon something) to replenish the ranks, plus a few "iconic" mechanics like Poison, Horror etc. Then in the last few waves a lot gaps started to be filled, for example with Reva the faction got a powerful long-range caster, and with Kentauroi the problem of mobility is largely addressed. Also, the faction now has a lot more options for cross-faction hiring, with McMourning's beasts and academics, Seamus's belles etc. I'd add that Belles are iconic (and very important in Resser crews) just like Slop Haulers are for Gremlins - they are so because they fit into a mechanic common across faction. For all those jealous of Gremlin healers, Gremlins sure are jealous of Resser (and Nvb) lures! Another example, Neverborn: traditionally fast and very mobile, hard hitting and at the same time subtle. Also, they tend to be squishy, with no real "tanky" models or decent healers and no shooting. More or less a faction of glass cannons, with a lot of lures and Wp duels and strong Melee. Of course there are different playstyles if you choose to play Dreamer or Collodi, but the fundamental aspects (strengths and weaknesses) remain. Compared to ressers, I see less weaknesses being addressed... Arcanist are so dominant I think because Sandeep bridged a big gap: the faction used to have a lot of armored models and constructs together with strong magic and shooting, but very little scheme marker shenanigans and limited speed (apart from glass cannons like beasts). Of course, Colette is an exception and she's lovely (the favorite of my 15 masters!) but after the errata she's not quite the same...and GG18 is not so focused on scheme marker craziness as GG17 I think. Outcasts are another dominant faction since they are very much a mixed bag, with a little bit of everything, which means that depending what you field you can have strengths and weaknesses of your choice: from one extreme like glass-cannon Viks, to the attrition of Hamelin, with a very mean master like Leveticus. You have the option of shooting (Von Schill, Parker) and some unique mechanics like Jack Daw and Tara. So I think they are very well-rounded, but this perhaps makes more sense for them since they are a ragtag faction even in fluff. Guild was the faction of hard-hitting damage dealers. From Pullmyfinger: "The Guild favor buffing their own crews and prefer quality to quantity. They tend to lack both summoners and cheap minions, and are generally the slowest of the factions - compensating for their lack of speed and numbers with a notable abundance of firepower and strong individual models. " Now they're getting some quantity too, and cheap minions, and Nellie brought some movement/activation shenanigans. As I said, I expect them to come out strong in GG18. Finally Ten Thunders: I don't know them as well as other factions but I know traditionally they are elite crews with quality models but not a lot of bodies, and no summoning. Now there is Asami but I don't find her very impressive. Of course most of them are dual faction so the playstyle varies greatly... I hope this answers your questions and explains why I think other factions are compensating and will get the upper hand - except perhaps Neverborn. As you yourself mention, one tournament, and besides the first in the new format, doesn't really prove anything. We'll see what happens but I do believe right now Guild and Ressers have improved a lot, while Arcanist and Outcasts will remain strong. Neverborn/TT just behind, with Gremlins. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sklertic Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 I don't think either side will get any point across in this discussion. It's basically been reduced to edoperscietti echoing his argument, Daniello_S dropping a passive aggressive remark and then the other players trying to reverse their arguments. I'm just waiting for a nazi reference so Godwin's Law can be instituted and we can have the same 10 page discussion next errata. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 5 minutes ago, Sklertic said: I don't think either side will get any point across in this discussion. It's basically been reduced to edoperscietti echoing his argument, Daniello_S dropping a passive aggressive remark and then the other players trying to reverse their arguments. I'm just waiting for a nazi reference so Godwin's Law can be instituted and we can have the same 10 page discussion next errata. I like the summary. Hitler was a Gremlin 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 21 minutes ago, trikk said: I like the summary. Hitler was a Gremlin And his name was Wong Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedjy Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 21 hours ago, trikk said: www.malifaux-rankings.com usa.malifaux-rankings.com pol.malifaux-rankings.com I think those 3 are the biggest but I might be wrong. Well, they only let people check for some tournament results. That means limited times, different scheme use and a predictable "meta". 20 hours ago, Rillan said: Logfaux is broken. Simply logical if someone has negative winrate then someone should have positive. Why everyone is negative ? If u start counting games and numbers go wrong too. Logfaux is not broken. Numbers are logical. The average win% is 45% which does not mean 55% loose. It means 45% looses. And 10% draws... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 11 minutes ago, bedjy said: Well, they only let people check for some tournament results. That means limited times, different scheme use and a predictable "meta". What is "different scheme use"? What limited time has to do with it? And I think "predictable meta" is kind of good for assuming power levels. I agree its not perfect but logfaux doesnt really give you player skill factor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bedjy Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 What i meant is we can't rely on only one source of information. Tournament is the most interesting one to take into account to see what is balance and what is not. But we must not forget some games which are played competitively but at home or in a club where we are 100% sure we'll have a 5th turn. And then there are the casual ones that should be taken into consideration, at least for a small impac. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 16, 2018 Report Share Posted January 16, 2018 19 hours ago, bedjy said: What i meant is we can't rely on only one source of information. Tournament is the most interesting one to take into account to see what is balance and what is not. But we must not forget some games which are played competitively but at home or in a club where we are 100% sure we'll have a 5th turn. And then there are the casual ones that should be taken into consideration, at least for a small impac. Oh, I never said its the ultimate source. I just think its the better one compared to logfaux because its less metadependant. Another one is international tournaments (like ITC and UK Nationals) which show how metas develop in different regions. I don`t really know if the non-competitive games have to be taken into account when we don`t know the balance. They can be used more to determine what people find appealing than what works/doesn`t work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zebo Posted January 17, 2018 Report Share Posted January 17, 2018 I'm also very surprised not to see a cost drop on "Paid in Blood", since I've never seen anybody use it (out of me) and "Warped Reality" is quite better and cheaper. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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