edopersichetti Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, trikk said: Except "cavalry" isn`t just stats and mechanics. Its also models and the feel of the army. As in I think a lot people who played Brettonia didn`t play it because "I want to play a fast hard hitting army" but because knights and pegasus and griffons look cool. No new players will be sold on model playstyle. I mentioned it might be a personal but I don`t find it naive. When I started playing Malifaux I wanted to play Lady J because she and the Death Marshals looked awesome. I had no idea about the rules and I don`t think any new player can immediately find out the playstyle until he plays a few games. Its just a matter whats more important to you. When Papa in a box and Austringers were changed in Guild (and those were HUGE autotakes), a lot of players we`re like "yaaaa, that sucks but it was kind of deserved". Of course there were negative comments, but nothing groundbreaking. If it turns out Gremlins really struggle in GG18 after a few months I have no problem with giving them buffs. But I agree with Myyra that a faction designed on extremes is very hard to balance because someone will struggle. Well, on the first point we'll just have to agree to disagree. I don't really get into a game without reading its rules and having at least a rough understanding of the gamestyle. If a game has awesome models but the rules or the play experience is meh I just don't buy in (there's a few out there). For the record, I used to play Bretonnia and sure I liked the medieval knight theme but I wasn't crazy about it and mainly chose to play it because I wanted a fast, maneuverable army full of cavalry. OTOH Dwarfs are without doubt my favorite fantasy race since I can remember, yet I never played them in Warhammer because I was not a fan of the static, warmachine + high shooting playstyle. So definitely mechanics are of major importance for me: different strokes Guild really struggled lately so they've been receiving lots of nice candy lately...I do hope the same happens for Gremlins as I can see them struggle in GG18 and I hope we don't have to wait a whole year for designers to notice this, hopefully something can be done in July. I'd be happy if this somehow doesn't happen (i.e. Gremlins somehow consistently winning GG18 tournaments) and I am proved wrong, of course. But I doubt it Yes a faction designed on extremes might be harder to balance but as I said before the main problem is not the +1 to Burt and Frank for which really, I am of the same attitude you just mentioned for Papa and Austringers, the problem is that other factions are catching up in aspects that were traditionally considered Gremlin strengths, while this is not really true the other way around. The last thing left that is still kind of unique is Reckless (apart from the awesome Firestarter!), let's hope they leave us that at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
katadder Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 Don't think gremlins are struggling. 1st uk tourney of gg18 had 3 in the top 8 (although highest was 5th) in a 40 person event, ahead of nvb guild and ressers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Omenbringer Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 hours ago, katadder said: I know about their strengths and lack of weaknesses. They get easy access to fast and also to really high damage all for some self damage. This is then negated by the best healer in the game. And let's not forget bayou 2 card to give you 2 chances to win a duel even when top decking. They can until the latest errata out activate anyone but Hamlin whilst bringing cheap big beaters and also have an init cheating model. I know their supposed weaknesses which are not real, you tell me some gremlins weaknesses? Gremlin's are not that great, and I have been one of their longest proponents. It really sounds like you are not personally familiar with the factions strengths and weaknesses. "Some self damage" is a major concern, particularly when your opponent weathers the storm (say perhaps by reducing the damage they receive, which doesn't affect the value the Gremlin takes) and then needs only trivial damage flips to remove your models in return. Now you may argue that this damage can be easily healed but... The best healer in the game is also very fragile and limits the mobility of the rest of the crew unless you take something to shepherd him around the table (which of course isn't free). There is also the issue of how the Slop Hauler influences your activation order, which in Gremlins is a major concern. Activate him to early and you wont be able to do so again until next turn (likely having to activate the Slop Hauler before the rest of your crew). Activate them late and they might not be able to heal the models that need it in time. The bane of any Gremlin player fielding Slop Haulers is a "Sniper" model with From the Shadows (Quite a few of these floating around). These models rarely struggle to remove the "best healer in the game" before they are an issue. They really aren't as great as they seem, and that is why a lot of Gremlin players have shifted to the Lightning Bugs for healing duties. Bayou Two Card is not as game breaking as most people make out (and also isn't very common in the faction anyway). Sure it looks great on paper but it really isn't. There are only a small range of initial flip values that make it worth the gamble and even then the cost is having to accept an unknown card from your fate deck rather than a guaranteed value from your hand. Don't forget you have to be able to cheat in the first place to use it, so a modifier completely negates its potential. Also, most crews can get (and have for awhile now) near the model count that even a "wienie" gremlin list can, so game breaking out activation is rarely an issue even against "Elite" crew builds. Sure summoning can help but Gremlin summons are very restrictive and rarely significantly influence the game like other summoners can. As for initiative cheating...well like everything else you have to have the card to cheat in your hand to make it an issue. Generally I would rather have a high value card for Attacks or Defense rather than initiative, even on a crucial turn. And as you point out in your post, the "faction" only has one model that can do it anyway. Trixiebelle isn't cheap and the cheat occurs before your opponent has to commit a Soulstone to reflip their value. Again their are only a small range of values that you would really even consider doing this with. While some Gremlin players consider Trixiebelle an auto include I have never found her more valuable than the 2 Piglets I could have hired in her place. While I will admit there are some outliers in the faction that need to be reigned in, the same could be said about all the factions. Finally consider that the most often complained about models in the Gremlin faction are usually hired out of faction rather than within it. That says a lot in and of itself. Gremlin weaknesses are very real. Play them a few times for yourself and you will see them very quickly. If the faction didn't have them (and some major ones at that) then you would see them much more represented in the competitive environments. The last time this was true was last edition when there were some really stupid exploits. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
santaclaws01 Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 hours ago, edopersichetti said: Those are 3 of the so-called "Neverborn all stars", so that's why I mentioned Graves. I also think he's fine at his cost, but then sometimes we got models that were fine at their cost and still got a nerf so... If you're going to talk about all stars you should have mentioned Nekima instead of Graves. Especially considering the 2 activations in a row when combined with Doppleganger is what people complain about the most with those 2. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 hours ago, edopersichetti said: Those are 3 of the so-called "Neverborn all stars", so that's why I mentioned Graves. I also think he's fine at his cost, but then sometimes we got models that were fine at their cost and still got a nerf so... Which ones? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tris Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 6 hours ago, Omenbringer said: While I will admit there are some outliers in the faction that need to be reigned in, the same could be said about all the factions. Finally consider that the most often complained about models in the Gremlin faction are usually hired out of faction rather than within it. That says a lot in and of itself. Hired out of faction rather than within it - I thought it was both? Which models are we talking about now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 8 hours ago, edopersichetti said: Other factions have their own amazing models that Gremlins can only dream about, including reliable tanky models, high-end beaters (a la Nekima/Yasunori) etc. What are these reliable tanky models? Is there something on that list besides Joss? Francois does more damage than Nekima. Would you feel better if he got +1 Df and +2Wds and had his cost increased by another 5? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 Which hurts him in return when Nekima's damage hurts opponent only. You can't send Franc to kill any random model recklessly. You have to choose your target carefully if you want to use his powerful damage as it will hurt you in return too. Nekima can kill anything without this thinking. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Myyrä Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 15 minutes ago, daniello_s said: Which hurts him in return when Nekima's damage hurts opponent only. You can't send Franc to kill any random model recklessly. You have to choose your target carefully if you want to use his powerful damage as it will hurt you in return too. Nekima can kill anything without this thinking. Take the difference in the cost and add it to your cache. Use that to reduce the damage you take, and suddenly Francois won't be hurting himself any more than Nekima. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 22 minutes ago, Myyrä said: Take the difference in the cost and add it to your cache. Use that to reduce the damage you take, and suddenly Francois won't be hurting himself any more than Nekima. Just don`t give them the idea to take Stilts Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 -1df, -1wk, -1ml, need to take 1wd to have the 3rd ap. don't flight. -1 ml range. need to take half damages to hit hard.(ss pool have a 7 limit so now put 5ss in cache instead is not working so well). can't heal himself (nekima has 2 heals). no black blood. no fgf. Frank just got nerfed guys. nekima is an awesome model and hasn't been touched. Please stop arguing that frank is too good compared to nekima when nekima is also one of the neverborn allstar and can get some ridiculous synergy with chanegling and doppleganger. You also need to consider that gremlins simply don't have models above 11ss and the only one was 10ss last month. If we don't have good 7-8ss models how are we supposed to compete? Spam 3-5ss models good? ok we can do that sure but gg18 doesn't reward that and other factions now got lot of 3-6ss models with the prices drop. I play gremlins and neverborn and neverborn already felt more competitive in 2017 and now even more with the worst nerf for them being out of faction (trappers). Just let the poor green guys rest a little please. Time will tell if they are so broken or weak. Also i feel like all the arguing about gremlins for so long is why they are the only one nerf 3 times in a row. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 10 minutes ago, Aegnor said: -1df, -1wk, -1ml, need to take 1wd to have the 3rd ap. don't flight. -1 ml range. need to take half damages to hit hard.(ss pool have a 7 limit so now put 5ss in cache instead is not working so well). can't heal himself (nekima has 2 heals). no black blood. no fgf. Longer charges, longer threat range for 66% of the cost not counting the silly Skeeter-fast combo. 10 minutes ago, Aegnor said: Frank just got nerfed guys. nekima is an awesome model and hasn't been touched. Please stop arguing that frank is too good compared to nekima when nekima is also one of the neverborn allstar and can get some ridiculous synergy with chanegling and doppleganger. I think I saw 1 Nekima for the last half a year. She will see more play but 13SS for Df5 and no Armor isn`t a superb deal considering most neverborn masters have low Wds. 10 minutes ago, Aegnor said: You also need to consider that gremlins simply don't have models above 11ss and the only one was 10ss last month. If we don't have good 7-8ss models how are we supposed to compete? Spam 3-5ss models good? ok we can do that sure but gg18 doesn't reward that and other factions now got lot of 3-6ss models with the prices drop. Is there a requirement to have 11SS models? Also, nothing chaged in Gremlin 7-8 SS models. Two went from 7 to 8. It doesn`t make them unplayable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 20 minutes ago, trikk said: Longer charges, longer threat range for 66% of the cost not counting the silly Skeeter-fast combo. I think I saw 1 Nekima for the last half a year. She will see more play but 13SS for Df5 and no Armor isn`t a superb deal considering most neverborn masters have low Wds. Is there a requirement to have 11SS models? Also, nothing chaged in Gremlin 7-8 SS models. Two went from 7 to 8. It doesn`t make them unplayable. The problem is the skeeter then. Like glowy can be. I would be more than happy to see this 2 things changed believe me. Almost 'have to' abuse one and/or the other to be competitive isn't very funny or healthy. Nekima is worth the 13ss and i will be very surprised if she got some buff. On the other side not so much if she is slighty nerfed. Frank was too good for 7 then he got nerfed. Now for 8 he is at a good place. Nerf him again or put him at 9 and you will just kill him. They are not unplayable but since we don't have very big fighting models(nekima, ashes, killjoy) it's normal that we have 8ss hard hitting models. What i would like in future errata is just to get ride of 'allstars' and renforce themes. I don't want to play dopple in all my neverborn list. i dont wan't to play iron skeeters. My favorite neverborn master now i scollodi because you can play him with almost only puppets and be fine. My favorite part in the errata is wild boar and mechpork because i have more options to play my ulix. I wanna start Mah Tucket but with bushwacker trixi survivors or so, not just take a generic model and support him. Also as many said the main problem with gremlins is gg18. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 3 minutes ago, Aegnor said: The problem is the skeeter then. Like glowy can be. I would be more than happy to see this 2 things changed believe me. Almost 'have to' abuse one and/or the other to be competitive isn't very funny or healthy. Nekima is worth the 13ss and i will be very surprised if she got some buff. On the other side not so much if she is slighty nerfed. Frank was too good for 7 then he got nerfed. Now for 8 he is at a good place. Nerf him again or put him at 9 and you will just kill him. They are not unplayable but since we don't have very big fighting models(nekima, ashes, killjoy) it's normal that we have 8ss hard hitting models. What i would like in future errata is just to get ride of 'allstars' and renforce themes. I don't want to play dopple in all my neverborn list. i dont wan't to play iron skeeters. My favorite neverborn master now i scollodi because you can play him with almost only puppets and be fine. My favorite part in the errata is wild boar and mechpork because i have more options to play my ulix. I wanna start Mah Tucket but with bushwacker trixi survivors or so, not just take a generic model and support him. Also as many said the main problem with gremlins is gg18. Does someone want Frank at 9? Personally I`d always take 2 Gloowy Swinecursed over Nekima... or Burt and Frank over Nekima (pre errata) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aegnor Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, trikk said: Does someone want Frank at 9? Personally I`d always take 2 Gloowy Swinecursed over Nekima... or Burt and Frank over Nekima (pre errata) Why are we arguing then if we both agree with the burt/frank change? The problem with swinecursed is glowy again. This is why i would like to see more themed buff than generic ones. If you want to touch a gremlin model you always have to think about glowy or iron skeeter. Same with mercenaries. You have to balance them for all the possible unthemed synergy. (trapperllodi, nelly mctavish). I wonder why they don't make more rules like 'hate the maker' on lazarus or the hinamatsu ability to avoid abuse with collodi's will. Again for ulix pig midwife upgrade they though to put 'living pigs' to avoid stupid things with stuffed/flying piglets. More keyword/themed restrictions would solve a lot of things imho Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 16 minutes ago, Aegnor said: Why are we arguing then if we both agree with the burt/frank change? The problem with swinecursed is glowy again. This is why i would like to see more themed buff than generic ones. If you want to touch a gremlin model you always have to think about glowy or iron skeeter. Same with mercenaries. You have to balance them for all the possible unthemed synergy. (trapperllodi, nelly mctavish). I wonder why they don't make more rules like 'hate the maker' on lazarus or the hinamatsu ability to avoid abuse with collodi's will. Again for ulix pig midwife upgrade they though to put 'living pigs' to avoid stupid things with stuffed/flying piglets. More keyword/themed restrictions would solve a lot of things imho Oh, I agree with this. I think the influx of models becomes hard to manage - especially with more and more hiring options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Go Canucks Go Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 On 1/9/2018 at 12:33 PM, Aaron said: There will be a bundle for each Faction. Wondering will there ever be a Nightmare Teddy (Old Metal one) Card (Updated Version) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fetid Strumpet Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 Still also waiting on an update of Miss Pack and Miss Demeanor. Sort of understand why they haven’t done Miss Demeanor since they’d need to commission artwork for her since the original model was just a photograph of the studio painted model, but I really don’t understand why they haven’t done Miss Pack since her card had artwork on it rather than the more common photo. I realize it’s most likely more complicated than just moving the art asset over to a new back ground, uploading the image, and changing the name, but it can’t be all that difficult either. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 7 hours ago, trikk said: Just don`t give them the idea to take Stilts Then Skitter combo you are talking in the next post is not an option. Plus you add 6ss worth tax for extra model. And i agree with you guys that in current state where we have a tonne of models with different abilities/actions it is hard to make a new interesting model which wouldn't add some silly combo to the existing ones. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 2 minutes ago, daniello_s said: Then Skitter combo you are talking in the next post is not an option. Plus you add 6ss worth tax for extra model. And i agree with you guys that in current state where we have a tonne of models with different abilities/actions it is hard to make a new interesting model which wouldn't add some silly combo to the existing ones. I know but you still have options. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted January 14, 2018 Report Share Posted January 14, 2018 Just saying as you mentioned first Stilts then Skeeter-taxi combo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 On 1/13/2018 at 8:38 PM, katadder said: Don't think gremlins are struggling. 1st uk tourney of gg18 had 3 in the top 8 (although highest was 5th) in a 40 person event, ahead of nvb guild and ressers This just supports what I'm saying. 3 in the top is fun and all, but if highest was 5th, they must not be as powerful as they are depicted... I think Guild will come out on top in 2018, with GG18 and the addition of new models/errata - it might need some time for players to adapt. Ressers also just received a huge boost with Kentauroi (talk about broken things...), so the only faction I'm actually concerned about is Nvb: errata was ok but nothing really crucial or that will substantially change things on the table... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edopersichetti Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 18 hours ago, Myyrä said: What are these reliable tanky models? Is there something on that list besides Joss? Francois does more damage than Nekima. Would you feel better if he got +1 Df and +2Wds and had his cost increased by another 5? Well, for one the Flesh Construct is very tough to kill even with a dedicated beating. Another one I find extremely annoying is Yin. But there's plenty - of course, they tend to occur in Ressers and Arcanists because that's how the factions are supposed to work - which was my whole point. As for the whole discussion Frank vs Nekima I just won't go there - you can't really compare the two models. Francois is a guided missile, usually drops in, does his massive amount of damage and then dies. Df 4 is really poor plus he inflicts at least half of his 10 Wds on himself (yes, even with Stilts). So for me as long as he takes to the grave more than his SS cost, he's had a good game. Nekima works fundamentally different, and again, you just can't compare them. I just want to reiterate that, really, I'm ok with the Gremlin errata, Burt and Frank will be alright. My main concern is with the direction this is taking for Gremlins overall - over the last erratas the faction got hit over and over with nerfs like Rooster Rides, Lenny, Stuffed Piglets etc. Their strengths are constantly complained about but their weaknesses aren't addressed. At the same time, the other factions slowly but surely match them all - as I said, we just now need a few Reckless models per faction and then Gremlins will finally have no more reason to exist Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daniello_s Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 4 hours ago, edopersichetti said: Their strengths are constantly complained about but their weaknesses aren't addressed. What weaknesses? Don't you know Gremlins don't have them and are tough as nails across whole faction? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
trikk Posted January 15, 2018 Report Share Posted January 15, 2018 4 hours ago, edopersichetti said: Well, for one the Flesh Construct is very tough to kill even with a dedicated beating. Another one I find extremely annoying is Yin. But there's plenty - of course, they tend to occur in Ressers and Arcanists because that's how the factions are supposed to work - which was my whole point. As for the whole discussion Frank vs Nekima I just won't go there - you can't really compare the two models. Francois is a guided missile, usually drops in, does his massive amount of damage and then dies. Df 4 is really poor plus he inflicts at least half of his 10 Wds on himself (yes, even with Stilts). So for me as long as he takes to the grave more than his SS cost, he's had a good game. Nekima works fundamentally different, and again, you just can't compare them. I just want to reiterate that, really, I'm ok with the Gremlin errata, Burt and Frank will be alright. My main concern is with the direction this is taking for Gremlins overall - over the last erratas the faction got hit over and over with nerfs like Rooster Rides, Lenny, Stuffed Piglets etc. Their strengths are constantly complained about but their weaknesses aren't addressed. At the same time, the other factions slowly but surely match them all - as I said, we just now need a few Reckless models per faction and then Gremlins will finally have no more reason to exist Can you give me an example of other factions strength and weaknesses in your opinion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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