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How to outplay Imbued Energies ?


Rillan

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Im an arcanist player playing Kaeris, Ironsides and gathering Ramos models so far. So my problem is how to outplay Imbued Energies on Myranda ? Its not like i cant win versus Marcus, but i cant say it is average matchup. In my opinion it looks kinda crazy when  Marcus has a Henchman with cost 7 SS and with Imbued energies upgrade (+1) that give total value of 16 SS or 8 SS (Summoning Chymera) to crew for free, and four cards above it. And since my opponent never puts Myranda in place where i can oneshot her, so what should i do to stop Henchman that basically gives value like 2nd master on the board + 4 cards above it ? 

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Well its not free soul stones, you don't keep Myranda so in effect you trade a 9SS piece (Myranda - is 8SS + IE - for 1SS) for whatever Arcanist Beast you shift into, likely the Blessed of Dec or Cerberus (so both 9SS).  With IE you then get +4 cards while you also lose a single AP on the summons.  You never have Myranda and and the beast share the table, you lose Myranda on the summons "summon..... place in base contact..... then sacrifice".  The standard is double walk Myranda then (0) summon (Slow) Beast in base contact Myranda sacrifices so +4 cards, so yes its a powerful either/or tactic and can be used to move a Beast-bomb quickly up the table but you don't get an 8SS Myranda + a 1SS IE + an 9SS Beast; you get either Myranda +IE or the Beast (slow on summons) + 4 cards.   

So soul stone cost wise its a wash, the +4 cards is rough, I think its a little OP (or more exploitative) myself and in effect trades out for the -1AP on summons slow (which given how fast Myranda moves is not a really a straight trade).  It does give you marvelous flexibility.

Honestly while it feels like a nasty tactic, and exploit, it is really not that bad, on the shift your opponent will boost their hand yes, but its a single shot thing.  Yes the summoned Beast is nasty but the trick is the same SS cost as the Beast anyway and a Fast Cerberus or Blessed with IE on them is nasty and with this strat you can't do that.  

So question is it Myranda 8SS shifting to a Arcanist 9SS Beast you think is unmanageable.  Because this is a core mechanic for her.  

Or is it once your opponent adds IE?  Because you feel it is an exploit which puts it over the top?

Remember Marcus is an incredibly solid and flexible master to begin with, and has the second biggest selection pool of any model in the game (Levi being number one) so perhaps its an overall tough match-up.  I have previously argued that the Myranda +IE needs some sort of nerf but less because I think its totally OP and more because (1) it is way to common for Myranda +IE to appear over the simple Beast and (2) it "feels" exploitative. But I don't think it game breaking so what am I missing?? 

  

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9 minutes ago, dancater said:

so what am I missing?? 

I think u are missing that Myranda can hit someone or just play as Scheme runner (crew leaders choice) then when it is needed u shapeshift her, summon beast and get 4 cards. Beast still can Leap and put schemes if u need to while Marcus gets 4 cards and with 10 card pulls the trigger on opponent. And with WK 8 and Weak damage 4 its a hard one. 
Im afraid that it will end up with  must have buying Hans and trying to take upgrade off or buying Myranda and playing with her. Cause with her 8 SS cost she is useful as Hoss who is 10 SS.

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42 minutes ago, Rillan said:

I think u are missing that Myranda can hit someone or just play as Scheme runner (crew leaders choice) then when it is needed u shapeshift her, summon beast and get 4 cards. Beast still can Leap and put schemes if u need to while Marcus gets 4 cards and with 10 card pulls the trigger on opponent. And with WK 8 and Weak damage 4 its a hard one. 
Im afraid that it will end up with  must have buying Hans and trying to take upgrade off or buying Myranda and playing with her. Cause with her 8 SS cost she is useful as Hoss who is 10 SS.

Not in the turn it is summoned. Summoned models can't Interact.

Myranda and Joss are useful in different ways, it's not really a choice of "him or her?". Although I do think Myranda+IE is applicable more often than Joss is. I do agree that IE proccing on being sacrificed is a bit silly, given how Myranda works.

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Likewise I agree that Myranda +IE is exploitative as I've mentioned and the +4 cards is rough but...

Rillan most of what you say has nothing to do with IE and is instead that Myranda's shapeshift ability itself is OP.  Making her too flexible.  This is a separate discussion.  

What I am hoping to achieve is what exactly you want to discuss in terms of management:

1 hour ago, Rillan said:

I think u are missing that Myranda can hit someone or just play as Scheme runner (crew leaders choice) then when it is needed u shapeshift her, summon beast

 

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

Beast still can Leap and put schemes if u need to

Although as Nico points out can't interact on summoned turn.

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

And with WK 8 and Weak damage 4 its a hard one

Each of these points is about Myranda's shapeshift ability, which I agree is very powerful.  

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

and get 4 cards.

 

1 hour ago, Nikodemus said:

while Marcus gets 4 cards and with 10 card pulls the trigger on opponent.

Are about IE and its interaction with the shapeshift, which I agree feels kinda dirty.

So:

  • Do you argue Myranda and her shapeshift ability is simply to powerful, in effect making the 9SS Arcanist Beasts only valuable if you NEED to upgrade the Beast otherwise you'd logically always, always take Myranda (which is 99% true) and shapeshift.  Thus that you want advice on dealing with Myranda and maybe think that this ability should be nerfed?

Or:

  • That Myranda and her shapeshift is fine (it is just a nasty but manageable tactic) despite the fact its so flexible.  However when you add IE that +4 cards pushes it over the top from nasty to OP and this is where you want advice and/or advocate a future nerf (to IE alone)?

Your initial post title seemed to indicate IE was the problem, which is fair enough.  But then many of the issues you've highlighted are exclusive to Myranda and would remain regardless of IE.  Its difficult to address IE being OP if at the core of things your problem is Myranda and her shapeshift at the very outset.  But likewise if the focus is IE then the fact Myranda shapeshifting is as nasty as hell is meaningless the problem is the shapeshift ONLY when buffed by the IE, that's a different question where we don't care about how flexible and wonderful Myranda is shapeshifting but really dig into whether she should be able to sacrifice to shapeshift and score the crew +4 cards or is that just piling on power.

Both your arguments have potential worth but its pointless trying to argue both at once as they bleed into each other.  If you think Myranda is OP then Myranda + IE is only going to be worse, obviously.  If you think IE pushes Myranda over the top then, yeah OK we can acknowledge shapeshift is powerful and effective, BUT, in the end that is Myranda and her powers and the ISSUE is the sacrifice + IE grants 4 cards and that is the game breaker.

Do you see what I'm saying, its not that either argument is invalid or not worth having.  It's that I'm uncertain of what your argument actually is between the two. 

 

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7 minutes ago, retnab said:

I'm personally hoping the Myranda+IE -> Cerberus+4 cards thing gets killed in the newest errata.  Maybe then I'll actually see someone use Myranda for something other than a delivery system.

I agree.

It is just that I personally don't think Myranda and her shapeshift need/demand review. 

However I do acknowledge that she is very flexible and powerful.  It's IE which really makes it a no brainer to take her, move her up turn 1 and maybe turn 2 (rarely turn 3) before shapeshifting to super power the crews control hand.  And I'll also add this is a great Marcus tactic but honestly its a solid go to in any Arcanist crew, I mean who does need a top class alpha strike model in your opponents face and your crew gets +4 cards, along with the extra activation. 

I just want to make sure we are addressing Rillan's actual question of I hate Myranda and IE makes her worse (which I would probably argue against) or Myranda is nasty but with IE she is just a bit stupid (largely agree). 

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24 minutes ago, retnab said:

I'm personally hoping the Myranda+IE -> Cerberus+4 cards thing gets killed in the newest errata.  Maybe then I'll actually see someone use Myranda for something other than a delivery system.

I’d rather see Myranda get buffed a bit and made a 9-10 point Henchman. That would make shifting Myranda something that you may end up not doing in some games and remove the whole Myranda+IE being a better way of hiring a Cerebrus.

 

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i think in my personal opinion that it's pretty exploitive and ruins ever hiring a beast in a arcanist crew, i think they could easily fix the combo by just making the IE card say "When this model is killed, draw for cards" remove the sacrificed :)

should also help balance out the upgrade more and stop making people should "unfairly OP upgrade" everytime they see it. 

so many non arcanist friends i have keep saying when they see it that they'd just plop IE on everything because it's so good, no drawbacks, which i actually think is true :/ 

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I like the idea of a increased SS cost Myranda but that is a huge change, more a edition thing or at least a major, major errata.  Also it would be incredibly tricky on how to balance her (especially with potential upgrades).  Now that would be a route to take, bring out some Myranda specific upgrades for her which you could take to either (1) make her better and encourage no shapeshift or (2) enhance the shapeshift but with some risk.  In a major errata you could even make shapeshift itself drop from the card, give her a small buff and then make shapeshift an upgrade on its own.  But I agree even sans IE Myranda is usually shapeshifting before mid-game and I'd like to see her on the table more. 

Either way if the current IE exploit was nerfed or eratta'd in regards to Myranda and her shapeshift that would suit me fine. 

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1 hour ago, Thottbot said:

so many non arcanist friends i have keep saying when they see it that they'd just plop IE on everything because it's so good, no drawbacks, which i actually think is true :/ 

I think the same thing about Debt to the Guild, especially when Show of Force is in the pool. You to use the card but you leave it attached and if you die you get its cost refunded into your cache? That seems at least as good as IE to me.

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Just now, WWHSD said:

I think the same thing about Debt to the Guild, especially when Show of Force is in the pool. You to use the card but you leave it attached and if you die you get its cost refunded into your cache? That seems at least as good as IE to me.

Debt to the Guild is way more busted than IE and I think it will show up as Guild gets stronger this year. +1 damage to all attacks is huge in a faction that has heavy access to crit strike.It basically makes it so that those models who would have survived 2 AP can't anymore. Turns 7 wounds into as useful as 6.  Add to that the fact that they don't have to toss Debt when they do it, and its insult to injury. I'd like to see Debt get the same treatment as IE and Oathkeeper and have to be removed when used. 

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With all this hate on Myranda and IE, people do realize that there is still another delivery system available to have a Cerberus (or like-wise hard hitting Beast) across the board turn 2, right?  Blade and Claw is incredibly easy to set up and can move a Beast and a Construct 16 inches (+size of base) around the board   It might require a little more set-up but it is still very effective and if there is a nerf to Myranda, people are going to be seeing a lot more Fast Cerberus's (Cerberi?) or Blessed on the table.

Also, there are now delivery systems in the Guild that can put an Executioner in someone's face turn 2 and with Debt to the Guild, they hit even harder.  Also, using the Mounted Guard as the delivery system, you now have two models up there in relation to the one model that Arcanists would get.

Edit: I just read Debt to the Guild and it seems on-par, if not better, than IE.  You get a card, more damage and even get a stone back!  Getting the stone back is HUGE.  Having more stone's opens up many more options than drawing four cards.

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No argument Debt to the Guild is good, it should be left to another forum thread, we are leaving the thread of the original question.

Rillan wanted to know how to handle Myranda + IE.  

Agreed Blade & Claw is an excellent method to deliver big Beasts but Rillan has issues with (1) the flexibility of Myranda and (2) the boon she gets on shapeshift sacrifice with IE of +4 cards.  I'm not 100% on if they think Myranda herself is simply to powerful or if the crux is the IE interaction but this is where this thread started.

I do think Blade & Claw provides an excellent example, yes with this you can deliver an angry Cerberus (or Howard depending on the beater of your choice) but it does require at least one opposite model (so a Construct to the Cerberus or a Beast to Howard) alive in the crux location, which may be tricky especially with a sharp opponent looking for the move.  So its more expensive and does not benefit from Myranda potentially running where she needs and simply (0) shifting, nice and easy (with good stats and SS prevents in emergencies).  Also Blade & Claw does not provide +4 cards on the IE sacrifice.

So yeah 8SS Myranda + 1SS IE to shapeshift into a Arcanist Beast of your choice.

Compared to Arcanist beater of your choice and a Blade/Claw mirror for the switch - so more expensive, harder to set up but you get two models.  Finally you can have both for no extra cost at the moment you could Blade & Claw Myranda or the shifted Myranda/Beast just as simply.  So yes I'd say Myranda with IE is comprehensively better than Blade & Claw as a Beast-alpha delivery.

As for Debt to the Guild, yes its amazing but not relevant to the discussion at the moment.  Besides saying we don't have an OP or dirty ability because those other guys have one which is worse is kinda a weak argument, unless you're going for a double nerf.  Finally I think Debt to the Guild is what it is because of a perception (correct or not) that Guild in general as a Faction before that and other upgrades was weaker and less popular then several others, including the good old chain breakers.  Not saying that is right but its been said by others.

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10 minutes ago, dancater said:

Agreed Blade & Claw is an excellent method to deliver big Beasts but Rillan has issues with (1) the flexibility of Myranda and (2) the boon she gets on shapeshift sacrifice with IE of +4 cards.  I'm not 100% on if they think Myranda herself is simply to powerful or if the crux is the IE interaction but this is where this thread started.

I do think Blade & Claw provides an excellent example, yes with this you can deliver an angry Cerberus (or Howard depending on the beater of your choice) but it does require at least one opposite model (so a Construct to the Cerberus or a Beast to Howard) alive in the crux location, which may be tricky especially with a sharp opponent looking for the move.  So its more expensive and does not benefit from Myranda potentially running where she needs and simply (0) shifting, nice and easy (with good stats and SS prevents in emergencies).  Also Blade & Claw does not provide +4 cards on the IE sacrifice.

So yeah 8SS Myranda + 1SS IE to shapeshift into a Arcanist Beast of your choice.

Compared to Arcanist beater of your choice and a Blade/Claw mirror for the switch - so more expensive, harder to set up but you get two models.  Finally you can have both for no extra cost at the moment you could Blade & Claw Myranda or the shifted Myranda/Beast just as simply.  So yes I'd say Myranda with IE is comprehensively better than Blade & Claw as a Beast-alpha delivery.

I was not trying to say that B&C is better than Myranda with IE.  Not at all.  I was merely pointing out that if something happens to the Myranda/IE combo, there is an easy way to replace it.  There are cheap, tanky and mobile Constructs and Beasts in the Arcanists faction and if a player wants to put a beater in their opponents face turn 2, it is very doable even without the Myranda/IE combo. Honestly, the four card draw can be a bit of a gamble.  A good gamble, yes, but still a gamble.  I mainly play Marcus and I can say that there have been times when I have gotten screwed on those four cards.  Of course I have gotten very luck as well. 

I definitely see how Myranda + IE is strong but it is not over-powered. In the last few waves, other factions have received strong upgrades and models as well.  If it is card draw that is the problem, the TT just recently received a model that gets card draw whenever an opponent places a scheme marker within so many inches of them which is also tanky and hits very hard. I believe it is called the Crime Boss.

Also, how often do you see Myranda taken outside of Marcus?  I MAYBE see her with Sandeep... and that's all I've really seen.  Each faction has their strong models and combo's and by nerfing such combo's, it just makes the faction weaker.

-------

For @Rillan, a good player will never put Myranda in a compromised position to not get the full effects of her shifting and IE.  Even if the opponent gets her in any sort of bad position, he Df 7 and use of SS will help keep her safe.  Honestly, it's hard to deal with her because she is meant to be a tanky support piece. What issues are you having in particular?  If it is with the high damage, you can handle that by throwing small, tanky minions (i.e. the spiders) at your opponent to tie them up.  If it's trying to damage Marcus, use a Performer (Or Ironsides "lure") to pull him away from his Beasts to get around his Df trigger.  Maybe look at bringing Lust (a mercenary) who has a lot of movement tricks versus enemies and can get you cards to draw for yourself.  Remember, those 4 cards and extra model only matter for one turn.  It may be a big and eventful turn when it happens, but that leaves another 2-3 rounds for you to work towards a win.

For those times that I have lost with Marcus, it has been because the opponent did what I listed above.  They put small minions in front of my beaters to keep them from charging in and isolated Marcus, who is not very survivable on his own. 

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52 minutes ago, dancater said:

As for Debt to the Guild, yes its amazing but not relevant to the discussion at the moment.  Besides saying we don't have an OP or dirty ability because those other guys have one which is worse is kinda a weak argument, unless you're going for a double nerf. 

My point in mentioning Debt to the Guild was in pointing out that Arcanists aren’t alone in having an upgrade that’s going to get used just about any time you’ve got a model with an open slot and points to spare.

I don’t think IE is broken. I don’t even think the interaction with Myranda’s shapeshifting is broken. I think the real problem with Myranda is that Myranda+IE is almost always straight up better than hiring a Cerberus (or Blessed without upgrades). I think that Ours will do a little bit to shift this but as unless Myranda is more expensive than the beasts she shifts into and/or give players more reasons to keep Myranda on the table she’ll continue to be nothing but a big beast delivery system for most players.

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Draw 4 (or any draw effect) is influential for two turns: the turn you draw them and the turn they may sit in your discard pile, unshuffled and out of consideration. (Unless you cycle your deck in that second turn—but they still were controlled for awhile). Blade and Claw is annoying but blockable: IE card draw cannot be stopped.

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5 minutes ago, KingCrow said:

 Honestly, the four card draw can be a bit of a gamble.  A good gamble, yes, but still a gamble.  I mainly play Marcus and I can say that there have been times when I have gotten screwed on those four cards. 

I don't think that drawing four cards is ever a gamble. Even if you draw all crap cards that means that you didn't top deck those crap cards in flips and that if you hold them until the end of the turn and discard you have improved your chances of getting a better hand because those weak cards were not shuffled into the deck.

I guess you could bump into a situation where you drew 4 face cards and then the next two duels you make are very important and at a negative flip.  

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6 hours ago, dancater said:

That Myranda and her shapeshift is fine (it is just a nasty but manageable tactic) despite the fact its so flexible.  However when you add IE that +4 cards pushes it over the top from nasty to OP and this is where you want advice and/or advocate a future nerf (to IE alone)?

I agree with that. And question is what to do with it ? How to outplay it while its not nerfed ?

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To be honest, you can't outplay it.  It is very unlikely you kill Myranda before she shapeshifts, your opponent would have to be incredibly unlucky (you flip RJoker and they flip BJocker on mitigate for instance) or make a huge mistake.  So can't rely on this.  Which is why I dislike the combo ability and think it should be nerfed to killed instead of sacrificed or something similar.  

So you assume they get the shapeshift and the +4 cards.  You simply have to wear it, and probably the big key, not get frustrated.

Then you have to just deal with whatever the Arcanist Beast is, most likely the Cerberus.  In this its nothing unusual you'd face this even if they did not take Myranda + IE, they are the same points.  So you're dealing with the model you expect but probably more in your grill than you'd like and of course with the +4 cards which pretty much always helps your opponent in some fashion if only to cycle the deck.

But when you break that down its not really the end of the world.  The Cerberus was always going to arrive and do damage and the extra cards is not ideal but plenty of models have some pretty obscene card cycle/draw, I mean Philip and the Nanny + Nico is really an experience in "oh god damn it" card cycle, on a powerful summoner, not pleasant.

So you want to try and reduce Myranda's options as much as possible, make her move to where you want her to go and make her shapeshift when your opponent would prefer not to, if they want shapeshift early then don't commit, force Myranda to move of shift in a poor location, if they want to shift later then press her make them shift because they don't want to deal with the threat.  Of course this requires guess work but its a 2 player war game so you have to expect that.

In short, best advice I got is..

  • Don't get frustrated and beat yourself.  Myranda was always going to shift and points wise its a 9SS for 9SS wash, the +4 cards is irritating but not a unique ability in Malifaux.
  • Try to reduce Myranda's options, you should have a pretty good idea what the Cerberus (or Blessed) wants so you know where she's heading, try to slow her if the opponent wants fast shift or rush her if they want to shift slower.  You can always engage Myranda with something tough and fairly cheap, force her to shift and then yeah the Cerberus will kill (or be forced to Leap at least) the sacrifice.
  • You could attempt to card drain to make up for IE but you're running Arcanist's so they have limited options and I would not bother tbh.
  • Select schemes which make shifting a problem if they are available, so stuff targeting Myranda and giving you points (depending on what sheme pool you have available of course).
  • But yeah the main thing is try not to think of it as Myranda + 4 cards + a lethal beast.  Try to think about it as 'just' a Cerberus (or Blessed) waiting to happen/happened and deal with that, yes its in your face but that is likely regardless with any good player, yes the + 4 cards hurt but you're unlikely to be defeated by that alone.  How do you negate/control/minimize/kill the rampaging Cerberus/Blessed?  Focus on that....

Wish I had some golden hammer but that's it for my advice.

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3 hours ago, Rillan said:

I agree with that. And question is what to do with it ? How to outplay it while its not nerfed ?

Out play it by knowing it exists and have a counter. 

yes they can turn myranda into a cerberus. so you can on  turn 1 have a slow ceberus 14" up the board with a better hand. 

Expect and allow for it. if you get a chance to hit the newly summoned cerberus, you can quickly remove its 3headed advantage and it isn't chain activating so you can have the time to react. Its a one off thing, accept is going to happen, and play accordingly. 

Personally whilst I think it is a strong option, I much prefer my Cerberus to have the imbued energies to have the potential for 3 attacks on 1 turn, it gives an overall stronger threat for me, than the movement bonus and the cards. 

 

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1 minute ago, madaxeman said:

So...

You're facing a Cerberus that (almost certainly) won't be attacking you until turn 3, and your opponent also has a grin on their face as they have just picked up some god cards that turn.

That's not all that wildly broken IMO ...

 

 

It'll probably be attacking you turn 2 unless its corner deployment and the "god cards" are a maybe.  Sometimes you get good cards, sometimes you don't.  Not sure if you're being sarcastic but it's not broken or OP.  There are plenty of ways to card cycle in the game and for Arcanists, this just happens to be on of the most efficient. 

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You could take Taelor. She might pull her weight with the high likelyhood of some form of summon. 

A more generally viable approach is probably what Adran suggested. Remove the three-headed bonus before it gets to attack and then take it on the chin. It's rarely worth trying to attack her because if she's left standing on a single wound you just wasted a ton of ap.

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4 hours ago, KingCrow said:

It'll probably be attacking you turn 2 unless its corner deployment and the "god cards" are a maybe.  Sometimes you get good cards, sometimes you don't.  Not sure if you're being sarcastic but it's not broken or OP.  There are plenty of ways to card cycle in the game and for Arcanists, this just happens to be on of the most efficient. 

I'm 100% in agreement with you - a slower moving Cerberus who won't attack turn 1, plus probably a good hand. That's not broken, and as you say Arcanists have few enough cary recycling tricks compared to the other factions

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