Dark horses.... Tuco

[Fixxer]

Heard some guys talking Dark horses on a podcast, thought I’d share mine. I’m a NB player and run Dreamer, Zoraida, and Lilith mainly. 

I think this is one of the more underrated and underused models in the game. I may be wrong but I’ve never even seen anyone take him or even mention him for consideration in a crew. I think this is a miss by NB players as I see his value in a couple of schemes that are as common as they come, Leave your Mark and Frame for Murder. If they are both in the pool your opponent will be forced to make difficult decisions about what to do with him. 

Df5 Wp5 Wd8 Wk5 Cg5 

He is disguised (amazing) and has black blood. He deploys from the shadows, can’t interact on T1 but that’s no big deal, as he’s in position already and can activate late in order to take best advantage of his forward position. His Df trigger gives a -1 wp in pulse 4 after taking damage which segways nicely into his 0 action which is a Resisted by WP. His 0 action is a  CA6 TN12 push that has a trigger to give -flips to Df duels. Tuco has a sh6 shotgun that 2/3*/4** with a solid trigger for yet another WP duel. His MI5 is a 2/3/5 with A flay trigger. This is all solid IMO for a 7 stone model.

 

Need a lot of suits to make him work, I get that... but that can be true for most mid range models. As an independent operator and early threat that can situationally cheat most of your cards to wreak havoc on an enemy crew early can be devastating. 

I plan on using him in normal rotation as I just picked up the model. Perhaps in lieu of doppelgänger as she is becoming a crutch that I don’t think is producing as much as I’d like. 

Anyone else use Tuco or have any other dark horses ? Am I missing something with him? 

[Vorschlag]

I'd compare him to the claw (autumn knights) in both how under rated he is for what he "can" do in the right situation and the purpose for hiring.

In both cases I'm looking to hit with the -df flips and drop the model into things with pounce to have it mauled to death.

This will normally mean losing a very high and suited card but I will happily flick out the red if I must  to give an important model -df flips especially if they are integral to my opponents machine, then let punches in bunches do the job.

[Ludvig]

I think tournament players value consistency. The threat from Tuco seems reliant on getting to deploy second. Personally I favour McMourning with frame in the pool so I can poison the obvious models and make them die to the condition.

[I'm a Teapot!]

In my opinion, and I thaught about this alot while testing serena bowman to the max these days, the thing with from the shadows models is that everyone thinks they are dependent on deployment flipping. And yes thats true, but this disadvantage gets smaller the more from the shadows models you have. 

In my opinion, Serena Bowman not only fixes this issue, but really opens up a new, super fast playstyle. 

I tried deploying extremely agressive while I lost the flip, and I noticed, that if the crew is build around protecting the from the shadows models, it applies huge pressure to the opponent even with a lost deployment flip. 

 

One of the things I liked the most was using doppel and lilithu with fts to lure up Lilith and make her drop hazardous terrain right in front of my fts models to protect them. Also, tangle shadows turn 1 on a key model flinging serena bowman into the enemies, godlike efficient for ap trading.

Tuco fits in that crew extremly well in my opinion, cause he can be really safe and applying pressure at the same time. 

Disguised is really powerfull on a from the shadows model and as long as he is not alone out there, he can be played way more agressive.

[Ludvig]

It definitely ups the tempo of the game, instead of messing about positioning turn one you can really get into it straight away. My Perdita, Justice, Hoffman and Sonnia lists would love getting to kill models straight away instead of needing to move up for several ap. McMourning will start making you take poison ticks turn one instead of turn 2 and the nurses can reach you after a single walk turn 1 instead of falling behind.

It should screw over cheap model spams which I support 100% because the big beaters will eat those weedy models.

[Angelshard]

It was max value and it was quite interesting.

I disagree with them on emissary because, as they also say, quite a lot of people use it already.

I don't have lillith so I can't comment on cherub, but I've seen the debate on wether to take it before. 

My personal bids for dark horse are:

Cheating bastard on lynch. I know people are bashing because you lose immortal darkness, but I think it's far stronger than rising Sun as it affects (potentially) your whole crew and I think it will give huggy enough of an advantage to keep him alive.

The Gorar. This is mainly because of the new conflux making the emissary, and therefore changelings, common with titania. The Gorar's paralyze doesn't have any triggers or suits. So if something gains slow you can spam paralyze attacks with changelings. The best part is that the Gorar can hide in relative safety while the changelings use the attack.  (It also works on summoned models as they, almost always, come with slow).

And I agree with Travis that Mr Tannen is probably gonna see more play in gg18. Especially with titania and Pandora. 

[Ludvig]

Tannen is already really worth his stones in my experience. People who don't like him might not have given him a proper chance.

I get the feeling some top players only play their fixed lists and don't give most models a proper chance even in games where they could be great.

[Vorschlag]

9 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I get the feeling some top players only play their fixed lists and don't give most models a proper chance even in games where they could be great.

Sadly this seems to be the trend.

Hopefully gg18 is "diverse" (not to use a buzz word) enough to require more adaptability.

This in turn would however simply moves from one list of masters being most played to another.

Each of said masters will then get worked on till it has set lists to create a sense of adaptability or simply cover bases.

As long as the gaining grounds shakes things up enough each year there should be a shift in viable models for each build.

If nothing else this might help people get through their collection.

Mine is a sprawl I'll never get through, painting or game time.

Specialising in 2-3 masters per faction is normally enough to get competitive, when you tighten that to 1 master and a few set lists you have very tight but perhaps rigid game play.

 

[Ludvig]

Yeah, a new gg each year to make people thing outside the box is a very good thing I think.

[Fixxer]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Yeah, a new gg each year to make people thing outside the box is a very good thing I think.

And how quickly a year goes by... Its really a fantastic method to keep the game interesting. Kudos to the developer who thought of that one. 

 

 

[I'm a Teapot!]

14 hours ago, Angelshard said:

It was max value and it was quite interesting.

I disagree with them on emissary because, as they also say, quite a lot of people use it already.

I don't have lillith so I can't comment on cherub, but I've seen the debate on wether to take it before. 

My personal bids for dark horse are:

Cheating bastard on lynch. I know people are bashing because you lose immortal darkness, but I think it's far stronger than rising Sun as it affects (potentially) your whole crew and I think it will give huggy enough of an advantage to keep him alive.

The Gorar. This is mainly because of the new conflux making the emissary, and therefore changelings, common with titania. The Gorar's paralyze doesn't have any triggers or suits. So if something gains slow you can spam paralyze attacks with changelings. The best part is that the Gorar can hide in relative safety while the changelings use the attack.  (It also works on summoned models as they, almost always, come with slow).

And I agree with Travis that Mr Tannen is probably gonna see more play in gg18. Especially with titania and Pandora. 

Cheating Bastard is so freaking strong when the player uses it correctly. I've been on the receiving end of this and it wasnt fun... especially vs stitched together....

[Viruk]

On 12.12.2017 at 2:20 AM, Fixxer said:

Anyone else use Tuco or have any other dark horses ? Am I missing something with him? 

I've used him several times. If I deply as second I can cause havoc in enemy's ranks if they're too bunched up on first activation. Be it Gremlins or Arcanists - they usually have some low Df model in the mix, from which you can get blasts. I often give him Thousand Faces and swap it to Retribution's Eye if I'm facing opponents like Ramos or Kaeris. Tuco is a good FFM target then as he has to be dealt with quickly and will go down but if things go well this will take a few activations from the enemy. Also, he can be a bait and your opponent might suspect FFM on him. If you put it on another model then, you will still force opponent to deal with him but that may be even more resource-intensive as they'll try to get rid of him without giving you 2-3 VPs.

[Fixxer]

Tuco is absolutely scheme pool dependent. 

On 12/14/2017 at 2:58 AM, Viruk said:

I've used him several times. If I deply as second I can cause havoc in enemy's ranks if they're too bunched up on first activation. Be it Gremlins or Arcanists - they usually have some low Df model in the mix, from which you can get blasts. I often give him Thousand Faces and swap it to Retribution's Eye if I'm facing opponents like Ramos or Kaeris. Tuco is a good FFM target then as he has to be dealt with quickly and will go down but if things go well this will take a few activations from the enemy. Also, he can be a bait and your opponent might suspect FFM on him. If you put it on another model then, you will still force opponent to deal with him but that may be even more resource-intensive as they'll try to get rid of him without giving you 2-3 VPs.

This all looks like what I assume can happen with him. If they spend high value models dealing with him, then he is doing his job keeping our other high value targets in miss matches. If they ignore him he'll just go drop markers in their backfield starting on T2. Of COURSE this is in a perfect world, there is always resistance, and its about making the right decision in the moment, which takes practice and experience. Thanks for your input.

On 12/11/2017 at 8:12 PM, Vorschlag said:

I'd compare him to the claw (autumn knights) in both how under rated he is for what he "can" do in the right situation and the purpose for hiring.

In both cases I'm looking to hit with the -df flips and drop the model into things with pounce to have it mauled to death.

This will normally mean losing a very high and suited card but I will happily flick out the red if I must  to give an important model -df flips especially if they are integral to my opponents machine, then let punches in bunches do the job.

The Claw is very similar, perhaps BOTH could be fun. More options to put enemies on -s to DF could be a nice strategy in a murder based crew. I have him, he seems fun to paint, perhaps I'll add him to the mix too. Thanks for the heads up. 

[le_sphinx]

Can Angel Eyes be considered as dark horse? Or she just isn’t that good for her ss cost? Are there any good combos with her or matches where she shines?

[Angelshard]

I look at Angel eyes and then I look at a trapper and the trapper is better for 2ss less.

He's arguably more survivable thanks to freikore and reposition being build in. He shoots harder, potentially further and just as precisely (except that he randomizes, which I'd a big deal). He has a (0) to get out out of engaged and he's a minion so a lot of our masters have ways to boost him.

She can offer some ranged support and shoot into melee, but not enough to justify 9 stones. For that price I can get Hans instead.

Honestly I just don't see her bringing anything to the table as she is right now.

[Vorschlag]

Would love to see her get some kind of upgrade or fix to make her work, she seems like she could be really fun in concept

[Ludvig]

Shooting into combat is a big deal but Angel Eyes doesn't have anything else to make it fell worth what you are giving up. There's also Anna Lovelace that does about the same thing a lot better.

[Xaos]

On 12.12.2017 at 10:26 AM, I'm a Teapot! said:

In my opinion, and I thaught about this alot while testing serena bowman to the max these days, the thing with from the shadows models is that everyone thinks they are dependent on deployment flipping. And yes thats true, but this disadvantage gets smaller the more from the shadows models you have. 

In my opinion, Serena Bowman not only fixes this issue, but really opens up a new, super fast playstyle. 

I tried deploying extremely agressive while I lost the flip, and I noticed, that if the crew is build around protecting the from the shadows models, it applies huge pressure to the opponent even with a lost deployment flip. 

 

One of the things I liked the most was using doppel and lilithu with fts to lure up Lilith and make her drop hazardous terrain right in front of my fts models to protect them. Also, tangle shadows turn 1 on a key model flinging serena bowman into the enemies, godlike efficient for ap trading.

Tuco fits in that crew extremly well in my opinion, cause he can be really safe and applying pressure at the same time. 

Disguised is really powerfull on a from the shadows model and as long as he is not alone out there, he can be played way more agressive.

I think that burried Killjoy makes such deployment much more succesfull, wile the enemy is a bit scared of killing your models

[I'm a Teapot!]

2 hours ago, Xaos said:

I think that burried Killjoy makes such deployment much more succesfull, wile the enemy is a bit scared of killing your models

My recent crew is lilith with wings and the postule upgrade, primordial, serena with warped, 2 matures with warped, killjoy with thousand faces. Fun to play, unfun to play against =D.

[Xaos]

not to little activations?

 

[Ludvig]

18 hours ago, Xaos said:

not to little activations?

 

Out activation is mostly good for setting it up so you can pull off an unopposed alpha strike without facing retaliation. If your enire crew starts within charge range I don't think it will matter much, you either kill half their crew turn one and win because they can't score any VP or you fail miserably and lose.

[Xaos]

Fair enough. I think it is a good idea to bring such models to the tournament, but with intention of using them only once or twice, when scenario and opponent's crew siut you

[Adran]

8 minutes ago, Xaos said:

Fair enough. I think it is a good idea to bring such models to the tournament, but with intention of using them only once or twice, when scenario and opponent's crew siut you

I try and bring all the options I have to a tournament, you never know when the table you are and the game you are playing will suit an oddball list (or rather which oddball list it suits)Just remember you don't know what crew you are facing when you pick your list. 

As said, one of the strengths of Activation control is that you don't have to put your expensive models at risk when they are unable to retaliate until next turn. Using a large number of From the Shadows models means that you have a large number of threats on the table already, so there is much less advantage in saving your big activation's. Its kind of like in later tuns, you rarely want to try and save the big attackers to the end, but rather want them to go earlier to make more advantage. 

[I'm a Teapot!]

4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Out activation is mostly good for setting it up so you can pull off an unopposed alpha strike without facing retaliation. If your enire crew starts within charge range I don't think it will matter much, you either kill half their crew turn one and win because they can't score any VP or you fail miserably and lose.

Also when it comes to initiative, the player who is used to buff someone with  Terracotta Warrior or something else is going to think twice if the buff or an activation is worth more for his first few activations. Chain activation becomes more valuable and supporty crews that need activations to set up are less efficient.

Also big activations who are not likely to be killed in a single enemy activation and are more likely to kill opposing models in a single activations are more efficient. Therefore Matures are pretty good because the amount of models that can kill them in a single activation little and only a few of those can survive the killjoy counterstrike.

People are used to dealing to with alphastrikes, but those are normally at the end of turn 1. This one is at the very first activation of turn 1.

[Ludvig]

This should catch a few supporty crews with their pants down. I imagine certain summoners will not enjoy it at all.