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Wave 5 - GG 18 Tier List and Faction Standing


rober695

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Seen these popping up in all of the different factions threads, so figured we should have one. Especially since it seems like 10T was prob shaken up the most. What does your theoryfaux tell you with the new models/upgrades/and gg 18 about the tier list of 10T Masters. From what im hearing Yan Lo is the next big thing and new Misaki is filth. If Yan Lo becomes the best all arounder what does that do to Shen Long and McCabe? If blast Misaki becomes a thing do you still take lynch?

Also in terms of overall power rankings. How does 10T do top to bottom compared to the other factions? I was listening to the Max Value podcast and they were saying they thought Gremlins were the strongest. And outcast besides Hamelin was the weakest. Is GG18 going to be as focused on activation control as GG17? And if yes would 10T also be towards the bottom. I know our models are good...but they are expensive too. Idk...just wondering what your thoughts were. 

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Doing a thread like this less than a month before an errata makes it a bit risky. The upgrades or models pushing a master to great could recieve major overhauls. I guess with errata being so frequent now things will always fluctuate.

 

Why is Yan Lo so good all of a sudden btw?

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14 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Why is Yan Lo so good all of a sudden btw?

He has much, much more reliable Chi generation, can much more easily flip his upgrades, gains Casting Expert and can take a second (0).

It all adds up to a Master that can do tremendous damage from turn 2, is mobile, and can castle up and tank, guaranteed.

 

I don't agree with the OP that he's "The next big thing" though; he's just finally good.

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30 minutes ago, Amayasu said:

He has much, much more reliable Chi generation, can much more easily flip his upgrades, gains Casting Expert and can take a second (0).

It all adds up to a Master that can do tremendous damage from turn 2, is mobile, and can castle up and tank, guaranteed.

 

I don't agree with the OP that he's "The next big thing" though; he's just finally good.

To be fair im pulling that from three sources. Max Value Podcast, Schemes and Stones, and Arcane Reservoir. I consider everyone on those podcasts better than me. And they are all kind of in agreement on Yan Lo. 

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my first impression on Strategies (GG 2018 read but not tested yet):

-) ply for information: obey/companion is good for taking conditions on your model before your opponent can. Hard to wound / impossibile to wound/defensive is good to keep the condition up. Focus/fast can help taking down the condition from a model you're engaged and then put on yourself. I'm not sure overactivating is a big advantage on that strategy.

I think yan-lo (models missplacing), mei feng (railwalk), shen long (fast), mc cabe (nimble + reactivate) can works. I'll give a change to Brewmaster + Finger because obey + swill + drinking contest and no interact area seems designed for this strategy.  I think Asami is not a good option (tempo-summons are not so useful for this strategy). I'm not a fan of Lynch here.

Yeah I think I'll start paint my brewmaster soon.

-) Public execution: every solid beater is fine, kill and survive until the end of turn. I think shen long will be my first option here.

-) Symbols of authority: also here I think interacts negation is necessary (sun quiang) but also interact in engagement is good (mc cabe new upgrade will be nice).

-) Ours: I think is important to take out enemy and try to not die (banal). Maybe also the SS cost / resilience of every model should be evaluated. Medium cost? A couple of higher cost and many cheap? How many SS in upgrades? This time Mei/Asami summons will not help scoring (I think I never lost any interference point with Meifeng, emissary & toshiro)I'll like shenlong  push + heal, but maybe I'll try Misaki (master value is 10 so quite is sacrificable, and she's really good to go where necessary and kill something in the while), or Lynch.

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4 minutes ago, rober695 said:

They are saying he will potentially be at sandeep/somer levels by end of season. 

Doesn't sound like a problem to me. He deserves some time in the spotlight after being nicknamed Yan Blow for years. As long as Sandeep and Som'er keep being head and shoulders above a lot of others I don't mind more masters moving up in the world, that was the intent of the upgrades after all. The biggest problem would be a single master or a single faction completely dominating every event. If several different factions can all field top tiers masters that is a good thing, there will never be a completely level playing field between all masters.

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1 hour ago, rober695 said:

They are saying he will potentially be at sandeep/somer levels by end of season. 

I strongly doubt it. Som'er is my area of expertise so I can speak to him more, but I'm sure this also applies to Sandeep. Som'er is good because he does everything. He can summon easily with low resource cost, he hits incredibly hard with his min damage 4 shooting, and he supports the rest of his crew pretty well too with Do It Like Dis, Encouragement etc. To top it off he has great stats and is really hard to kill thanks to Loudest Squeel.

While Yan Lo is definitely better with his new upgrades, Instinctive and Casting Expert are great, they don't really give him much new to do, just let him do his old stuff more. And not having enough AP was an issue with him previously, but the other issue was that most of his actions weren't that impressive. Lightning Dance is great, but it's quite short range on a very slow master, and puts him in danger with his poor defensive stats. And a Ca8 attack is nice, but it only has a 2/3/4 damage track and no nasty triggers or anything. I'm a Yan Lo apologist, I think he was much better than people gave him credit for pre wave 5, but I'm not convinced he'll be Som'er level of strong post wave 5.

(also as an aside, I think one of the strongest ways to play him pre wave 5 was to get a recalled training every turn with a terracotta warrior, and now he has more upgrades that he wants it makes it harder to do that, which means they weren't quite as much of a buff as it seems)

 

sorry, I sound like a real negative nancy here, I don't mean to be so down on Yan Lo, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think that he's going to be as powerful as that.

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31 minutes ago, Dogmantra said:

I strongly doubt it. Som'er is my area of expertise so I can speak to him more, but I'm sure this also applies to Sandeep. Som'er is good because he does everything. He can summon easily with low resource cost, he hits incredibly hard with his min damage 4 shooting, and he supports the rest of his crew pretty well too with Do It Like Dis, Encouragement etc. To top it off he has great stats and is really hard to kill thanks to Loudest Squeel.

While Yan Lo is definitely better with his new upgrades, Instinctive and Casting Expert are great, they don't really give him much new to do, just let him do his old stuff more. And not having enough AP was an issue with him previously, but the other issue was that most of his actions weren't that impressive. Lightning Dance is great, but it's quite short range on a very slow master, and puts him in danger with his poor defensive stats. And a Ca8 attack is nice, but it only has a 2/3/4 damage track and no nasty triggers or anything. I'm a Yan Lo apologist, I think he was much better than people gave him credit for pre wave 5, but I'm not convinced he'll be Som'er level of strong post wave 5.

(also as an aside, I think one of the strongest ways to play him pre wave 5 was to get a recalled training every turn with a terracotta warrior, and now he has more upgrades that he wants it makes it harder to do that, which means they weren't quite as much of a buff as it seems)

 

sorry, I sound like a real negative nancy here, I don't mean to be so down on Yan Lo, I'd love to be proven wrong, but I just don't think that he's going to be as powerful as that.

I'm not an expert when it comes to Yan Lo, but having Instinctual is huge for him. Normally you'd "waste" 3 (0) actions on getting your upgrades, but now you suddenly get 3 turns where you can actually use a (0). Granted Turn 1 probably won't use another (0), you still have 2 Turns extra.

Most of the time you'll probably be using that for a Lightning Dance, as he can cast it once as a (0).  This frees up 1 AP already, just by being there.

Then you have his new 4 SS upgrade that grants him a 4th AP and a better attack that can scale up to Ca 9 with 3/4/5 as damage track. If you kill something with it, you heal ALL Ancestors, including Yan Lo for a low-ish amount. The downside is this attack only has 2" range.

 

Previously I would spend a Turn with Yan Lo with the following actions:

  • Lightning Dance enemy into beater if possible
  • Attack enemy with Ca 8
  • Lightning Dance back to safety
  • (0)

 

If the situation allowed it, I didn't use the second Lightning Dance and either used Terracotta Curse or just 2 attacks.

 

Now I can do something like this:

  • (0) Lightning Dance
  • Spend 3 AP on an attack (Ca 8 if long-range, Ca 9 if enemy within 2")
  • (1) Lightning Dance back to safety
  • (0)

 

You can get the 4 Chi rather easily on Turn 1, which means you can go crazy right from Turn 2.

 

One of his upgrades, forgot which one, increases his Chi generation which allows him to get to critical mass faster instead of only Turn 4-5.

Then he also got that upgrade that lets him swap upgrades for Chi and you can mold him for whatever you need him to becomes that Turn.

 

I think anyone can see just howmuch more power those new upgrades have given Yan Lo.

 

To comment on the "low" defenses of Yan Lo, it's true the stats aren't that great. He can however get Impossible to Wound AND Incorporeal from 2 of his cheapest Ancestor upgrades. This means his only weaknesses should be high minimum damage Ca attacks, such as Rasputina or defense-ignoring attacks.

 

 

I've been maining Lynch for a couple of months now, which opened my eyes on how powerful he is. I'm planning to play some games with Yan Lo as soon as the Charm Warder comes out for that perma-Disguised combo he has.

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Yan Lo is miles better, but he's definitely not going to be some kind of all-star in the faction. He still mainly repositions enemies and heals his team, which is geared towards a specific niche in scheme pools. He'll still struggle with schemier pools than some other masters, and even killy pools he faces some heavy competition in. With this upgrade though, Yan too can be counted as competition, which is all I've ever wanted for him. 

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I'm not sure how he compares to summoners in interference still. That strat is in two of the 2018 fixed rotation sets so should come up in half of all tournaments next year. I also believe there are still several schemes rewarding out-activation by you needing to have markers near models so if he lightning dances into a tempting clump of models that may just be setup for your opponent to score 3 VP. Him being more survivable doesn't solve that kind of situation and if memory serves all the ancestors are high priced, not sure what he uses to pad activations to contend summoners in that regard.

Being Sandeep/Som'er level means being the best pick in any game regardless of strat and scheme combination. Not sure he is that versatile.

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I've faced it three times now and the storm plus risk and reward is disgusting.

Having a guaranteed trigger that lets you cheat on :-fate to damage means you can get those blasts off as long as you have the cards, and since you only need to be even you don't need to cheat as hard to hit.

This does mean she's more reliant on a good hand though, so shang will probably show up more thanks to rush of magic.

Add charm warder to this for permanent disguise and she's really, really strong.

Plus you can use terracotta to swap to stalking bisento after you've decimated the enemy crew and take out the big things that are left.

What I find really interesting though is that she can finally be used in outcast.

Marlena Webster is nasty with her and scramble on yamaziko is disgusting.

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gods among men tier: yan lo, misaki, asami

Inferior to just mentioned but kinda meh tier: mccabe, shenlong

Utter garbage tier : mei fang, brewy, lynch

I have limited experience in 10T but am interested in this topic . Been waiting for someone to make a list so I figured I'd make a list so everyone will call me a moron and correct me :)

 

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@JoeCL no just no jesus christ 

 Top of the totem pole are, and probably always will be, Shenlong and McCabe. They can be as versatile as you can make their crew, have access to cheap activations, are above all great enablers for scheming and have so much more control in short and long range respectively that it isn't even a competition compared to the rest of TT.

Then there's the center of the pack, all of whom mainly compete with each other in terms of fighting. Asami, Lynch, Misaki and Yan Lo all have different areas of expertise and ways to interact with the board and their crew, but each of them deals with taking care of your opponent's models in some way with their own unique twist on it. Asami can dip into marker related pools, Lynch is a great all-rounder with disgusting amounts of damage, Yan Lo is there if positioning is key and Misaki is damage damage damage (the main difference between Misaki damage and Lynch damage is in applying it wide vs tall).

And on the bottom is Mei Feng, whose entire shtick is being a counter pick, and if she's not facing her ideal opponent and board she's pretty much useless, and the Brewmaster, whose existence revolves around being a squishy nuisance. Should've probably dropped him down another tier.

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Yeah, Shenlong and McCabe by virtue of what they do will basically always be at the top. Enabling your crew to do what it needs to do by giving it extra AP or making it more reliable will always reign king. I would say that Asami has a leg up on the others by virtue of being a summoner which gives her more versatility to do what she wants to do.

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I've played Yan Lo a couple of days ago, but lost due to an extremely bad matchup. Everything was Ca based (Reva burning crew) vs my Incorporeal crew. Still I felt the power of Yan The Man!

I managed to get both his 4 Chi and 3 Chi upgrades with some Chi to spare in Turn 2 and just went to town with him. Nothing like a Ca 8 aoe attack with min 3 damage :)

I can see great potential in Yan Lo, but the matchups are still very important for him. The Charm Warder trick is nice, but I expect that to get fixed eventually. As he is right now, he still needs it to get going as too many things can now bypass Incorporeal.

 

My second sleeper strong pick is Lynch. I've been rather busy, so I haven't had the time to finish my Tactica (yet), but Cheating Bastard upped his power level several times. I must admit I underestimated it a bit at first, but came to terms with it after a couple of games. Luckily it's an AND/AND game for the Thunders as we can always swap back to The Rising Run with Terracotta Warrior when things get dicey for Huggy. It feels great revealing a mask on his activation and just using Final Debt straight away with 10 cards in your hand without having to try and get Brilliance from another source. Still sucks vs Hamelin though :P

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I've been having a decent run with The Brewmaster with his new A Barkeep Never Sleeps upgrade and the Shadow Emissary, doling out 4 damage per poison point, then hiring a couple of the Crossroads 7 to make the drinking bubble even more detrimental, knocking off 8 or so points a turn for doing nothing.

Mind you, I'm not at top table tournament skill level, but I'm making my local meta angry drunks.

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On 12/11/2017 at 6:22 AM, rober695 said:

 new Misaki is filth

The new Misaki is pretty good but I think filth is a bit of an exaggeration. She is a lot more fun and more competitive than she used to be and the Storm is loads of fun. It does require the opponent to weather that storm in round one or two but you've got to do that with Lady J or Viktoria as well. I have mixed emotions so far with Risk & Reward (I'm only 5 games in with the new Misaki). I've used it a few but I think Misdirection may still be better. The Storm though makes her very good. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/21/2017 at 8:19 AM, whodares said:

My second sleeper strong pick is Lynch. I've been rather busy, so I haven't had the time to finish my Tactica (yet), but Cheating Bastard upped his power level several times. I must admit I underestimated it a bit at first, but came to terms with it after a couple of games. Luckily it's an AND/AND game for the Thunders as we can always swap back to The Rising Run with Terracotta Warrior when things get dicey for Huggy. It feels great revealing a mask on his activation and just using Final Debt straight away with 10 cards in your hand without having to try and get Brilliance from another source. Still sucks vs Hamelin though :P

Lynch having 70 points to use to everyone else's 60 to score Ours should be a nice little buff to him as well (well everyone but the Viks).

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