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Zoraida, new and improved?

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3 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

People tend to not like spammy lists, but I think as long as they are not suit or to tn reliant its totally fine to play spammy lists. Sometimes they benefit from an efficient synergy even more as normal lists would do.

I think it's more a matter of not liking that spammy lists detracts from the character driven feel and forces you to use multiples of the same sculpt. Spamming models isn't a bad strategy. People were more than ok with spamming malifaux rats or piglets for activation advantage and they were doing so well it had to be changed. Void wretch spam also turned out to be a very viable strategy. Around where I play people tend to just not go looking for things to spam which I'm thankful for.

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19 hours ago, Ludvig said:

I am of the opinion that a lot of players are overly conservative and hooked up on only one option being competitive. There are definitely subpar models but there are an awful lot of viable models that have an undeserved bad rep. The problem is that when I take part in tournaments I don't win which raises the question of how viable my way of thinking is. Unless I can find a weird sideways list win a 50+ player tournament against the "netlists" I don't have any solid arguments for my position. The problem is that the top players take sure cards for the big tournaments so we don't know how they would fare with some suboptimal choices in their list. Maybe they make it to the top table in part because they take the models they take.

I've gone unbeaten at  a 40 people event with lists that included a war rabbit and a slate ridge mauler (in 2 of the 3 games) ending second by 3 VP.  (reports  under spring showdown) But I acknowledge that Its a lot easier to play a much smaller pool of figures than I do and get the best out of them. I really don't want it to be that a set list can do everything, and so like polar opposite missions like the old reckoning and reconnoitre to appear in event pools. Sure, it might just make those mono players make a second list, but at least then people might look at other models with a fresh eye. Because too many players bow to the accepted wisdom, and its not until someone does well with something unexpected that others look at it. 

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On 13/12/2017 at 11:18 AM, Ludvig said:

I think it's more a matter of not liking that spammy lists detracts from the character driven feel

I think that took more damage from open hiring options and mixed bag lists instead of master based hiring.

It will never go all the way back but I would like see fewer mixed bags and tighter limitations.

A prime example of this would be Barbaros with Nekima or Titania given the less than civil war.

Francisco with everyone at all times like he's the kwisatz haderach or something etc etc.

I doubt it'll ever go back but I can dream.

 

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Guys one more noob question is here. In our equation we have enemy with “hem” and two our Voodoo Dolls. Does it mean that if any of our dolls suffer damage/condition the enemy “hemed” model will suffer the same?

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1 hour ago, le_sphinx said:

Guys one more noob question is here. In our equation we have enemy with “hem” and two our Voodoo Dolls. Does it mean that if any of our dolls suffer damage/condition the enemy “hemed” model will suffer the same?

Each side can only have a single doll in play and damage + conditions only transfer to models on the enemy team in relation to the doll which just gained it so there should be no overlap.

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On ‎20‎.‎12‎.‎2017 at 9:55 AM, Ludvig said:

Each side can only have a single doll in play and damage + conditions only transfer to models on the enemy team in relation to the doll which just gained it so there should be no overlap.

Though if both the Voodoo Dolls decide to Hem one another hilarity ensues? Put a single point of Burning/Poison/Armor/other stackable condition and it multiplies to infinity, right?

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1 hour ago, Math Mathonwy said:

Though if both the Voodoo Dolls decide to Hem one another hilarity ensues? Put a single point of Burning/Poison/Armor/other stackable condition and it multiplies to infinity, right?

We need to meet again and play some games! :D

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Same thing happens if the Voodoo Doll is near something with Black Blood. Blood damage causes Voodoo Doll to take damage, causes Blood damage, takes damage, causes damage... Whoever runs out of wounds first dies.

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On 1/2/2018 at 10:37 PM, -Loki- said:

Same thing happens if the Voodoo Doll is near something with Black Blood. Blood damage causes Voodoo Doll to take damage, causes Blood damage, takes damage, causes damage... Whoever runs out of wounds first dies.

When I demoed the game to my wife she was playing Zoraida and managed to pull that trick off.

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10T burn out...

Have Z and friends painted crew ready.

 

Wondering what people are taking fur mamma Z upgrade wise now...

And list wise

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Emissary, 2 whips and Iggy every single game. 

Upgrades: powerful control is the only upgrade I take on her. Her limiteds are to expensive for what they do and hex bag is counter intuitive because when I’m hemming enemies the doll is further away from Zoraida and that (0) is useless and when I’m hemming my own models I don’t need the effect from that (0). 

The rest of the crew is scheme and strat dependent. But some honorable mentions: 

hooded rider is a good backup beater. 

Lelu and Lilithu are great Allrounders (you can hem them both at once and push them around the board simultaneously and they both get nursed if you need it)

stitched together (it’s not gambling if your emissary knows your fate 😇) 

 

The thing is that with the core list of emissary Iggy and whisps you don’t need the rest of your crew to do every job in the game. Just use the enemy crew and play with their toys. In my last few Zoraida games by biggest beaters have been yasunori, Howard Langston and the lone swordsman. BTW always say thank you if your opponent uses recalled training before you obey his dude. 😇

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On 08/12/2017 at 2:26 PM, Ludvig said:

The swamp mother can get you a ton of gupps with a little help from a wisp.

Have you had real success with it though.

  • I tried it but had the following issues:
  • The Swamp Mother does not do anything during the first 3 rounds.
  • The package with the WotW costs 11SS, almost the same as McTavish or [Wadlgeist/Silurid + Iggy].
  • The Gupps don't do much if you don't have Masks, which is quite a needed resource in NB.
  • I usually play quite terrain heavy so Gupps are not too impressive when they don't leap...

All in all, I'll try again but I am currently not convinced that the Swamp Mother is really interesting, even after the cost decrease. If she provided a Mask to all swampfiend minions withing 6" that would be another matter as she would allow Gupps to take a leap to the battlefield.

I guess they may be fine for Supply Wagon but this is theoryfaux.

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Gupps are very hit or miss. I've used them with Lucius and McMourning (starting the gupps on the table).

Don't have wisps and the swamp mother without them is very unsatisfying.

The turns you can't draw or flip a mask gupps suck bad, when you manage to draw that lowish mask consistently I think they are (were in gg17 because claim jump) insanely good. New Lucius with his upgrade and wings of darkness has little difficulty guaranteing the mask and my darkened/nephilim crews aren't that mask hungry, moat triggers are built. In.

My main faction is guild so my neverborncollection is really limited. That means I am comparing gupps for claim jump with models that cannot possibly drop two markers in their own activation or the 6ss sergeant who has several other issues. In gg 17 I think one gup on each flank was a very reliable way to score claim jump. For gg18 I'm nt sure they have an abvious place anymore.

I might add that our boards are also terrain heavy but we have a lot ofvuild players so double austringers pop up frequently and silent is so damn amazing aginst them.

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15 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Emissary, 2 whips and Iggy every single game. 

Upgrades: powerful control is the only upgrade I take on her. Her limiteds are to expensive for what they do and hex bag is counter intuitive because when I’m hemming enemies the doll is further away from Zoraida and that (0) is useless and when I’m hemming my own models I don’t need the effect from that (0). 

The rest of the crew is scheme and strat dependent. But some honorable mentions: 

hooded rider is a good backup beater. 

Lelu and Lilithu are great Allrounders (you can hem them both at once and push them around the board simultaneously and they both get nursed if you need it)

stitched together (it’s not gambling if your emissary knows your fate 😇) 

 

The thing is that with the core list of emissary Iggy and whisps you don’t need the rest of your crew to do every job in the game. Just use the enemy crew and play with their toys. In my last few Zoraida games by biggest beaters have been yasunori, Howard Langston and the lone swordsman. BTW always say thank you if your opponent uses recalled training before you obey his dude. 😇

Exactly how i start building my Zoraida crew and have had some good success with it. only thing is sometimes i find the emissary has a non game.

I'm swapping him out for widow weaver and handbag just for the summoning role, ill see how it works out.

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16 hours ago, I'm a Teapot! said:

Emissary, 2 whips and Iggy every single game. 

Why 2 Wisps? I get using one to bring out the Voodoo Doll, but is the second a backup?

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3 minutes ago, -Loki- said:

Why 2 Wisps? I get using one to bring out the Voodoo Doll, but is the second a backup?

yea, one back up and a cheap activation.

Also the wisps call action is gold!! so have a couple of them floating around is always handy.

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Take one whisp and it will almost always be a priority target -especially when advanced for doll range.

Two is standard for effective use, three is unneeded spam.

Also two with either Weaver or spawn mother in a crew makes sense.

Especially if running a doll factory with double fears and dropping the doll straight into the auras.

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17 minutes ago, Vorschlag said:

Especially if running a doll factory with double fears and dropping the doll straight into the auras.

... I never even thought to do that. What's the usual Doll Factory setup?

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2 models with fgf, one is the Weaver,  summon a doll it hems, if hem fails it may need to be obeyed to hem again.

Once hemed it activates fails fears given form twice and drops a scrap marker for a wicked doll or save for teddy.

Repeat with a wisp for two scrap a turn.

You can still paralyze etc before it activates and dies but this isn't the set up I'd be going for if I wanted conditions  spammed on the doll.

With vasilisa having 2 obey options for the doll and the recent reduction in cost she may become a go to for this.

So you are looking at approximately 1/2 your pool for 2 fgf +Weaver,  handbag, second enforcer or henchman and 2 wisps - 6 activations.

From there I'd be looking at stitched etc to benefit from Weaver and Vasilisa.

Plus when you really need something damaged obeyed stitched or banraku with wicked dolls condition can be nasty and gamble your life is abhorrent against a voodoo doll if you lose a fgf or need something finished immediately.

Alternatively if you are going for raw activation control run this with a third wisp and the spawn mother then hope for crows.

You may need to use the spawn mother as the second fgf holder and drop vasilisa for something like juju but I'd be weary of feeling like a mixed bag doing this if I went with anything outside of bayou and dolls.

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The emissary has always been 150% effective for me. It summons every game, the conflux of fate upgrade is amazing. The 0 has tons of tricks (including giving the doll 2 high cards on a minus flip against stubborn targets like yasunori and knowing your fate when gambling your life) 

and the condition it hands out when damaging the vodoo doll is one of the most effective things in whole malifaux. 

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On 09/01/2018 at 4:33 PM, Ludvig said:

Gupps are very hit or miss. I've used them with Lucius and McMourning (starting the gupps on the table).

Don't have wisps and the swamp mother without them is very unsatisfying.

The turns you can't draw or flip a mask gupps suck bad, when you manage to draw that lowish mask consistently I think they are (were in gg17 because claim jump) insanely good. New Lucius with his upgrade and wings of darkness has little difficulty guaranteing the mask and my darkened/nephilim crews aren't that mask hungry, moat triggers are built. In.

My main faction is guild so my neverborncollection is really limited. That means I am comparing gupps for claim jump with models that cannot possibly drop two markers in their own activation or the 6ss sergeant who has several other issues. In gg 17 I think one gup on each flank was a very reliable way to score claim jump. For gg18 I'm nt sure they have an abvious place anymore.

I might add that our boards are also terrain heavy but we have a lot ofvuild players so double austringers pop up frequently and silent is so damn amazing aginst them.

I play Zoraida, Lilith, Lynch, Titania & Pandora. Terrain is usually heavy and there are lots of severe terrain pieces. Ht 3+ terrain is common so getting onto elevated places is not so easy with a leap 5.

I keep thinking the Gupps are not so bad when I look at their cards. But then I put them on the table and I find them really crappy, rarely leaping or doing anything meaningful. I've never been disappointed in Tots but I have been disappointed in Gupps every single game.

For stake a claim or claime jump, I just take 1-2 Silurids and I am usually fine.

My second faction is Arcanists and now that Hoarcat prides are at 4SS I don't see any point in taking Gupps with Marcus.

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1 hour ago, yool1981 said:

I play Zoraida, Lilith, Lynch, Titania & Pandora. Terrain is usually heavy and there are lots of severe terrain pieces. Ht 3+ terrain is common so getting onto elevated places is not so easy with a leap 5.

I keep thinking the Gupps are not so bad when I look at their cards. But then I put them on the table and I find them really crappy, rarely leaping or doing anything meaningful. I've never been disappointed in Tots but I have been disappointed in Gupps every single game.

For stake a claim or claime jump, I just take 1-2 Silurids and I am usually fine.

My second faction is Arcanists and now that Hoarcat prides are at 4SS I don't see any point in taking Gupps with Marcus.

I find that Gupps outperform Tots in almost every way, but each to their own. The ability to drop 2 scheme markers in 1 turn is one of the greatest strengths that tots and Hoarcats just can't compete with for some schemes

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Tots cannot do claim jump by themselves so it's really hard for me to understand how they would be more efficient for 17. For some other schemes I absolutely love tots but they have the same problem of needing masks so aren't reliably moving far. If you have a single mask in hand a tot can move ten and place a marker but a gupp could do that same thing or place two markers 5" apart. Silurids are a lot more reliable but cost almost double the stones so it would be pretty shocking if they weren't more reliable. :) Forthe price of a silurid you can just take two gupps/tots/chabgelings and have them drop a marker each for claim jump without needing a flip or anything.

With the new wagon strat I think a leap on a 40mm base for 4ss is a pretty good deal. Haven't played Marcus yeat, he is on my painting table along with a crapton of beasts but most of his crew isn't that into masks so for wagons I could see myself bringing a single gupp to basically get me 4strat VP by itself while the rest of my crew goes for the opponent's throat.

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15 minutes ago, Adran said:

I find that Gupps outperform Tots in almost every way, but each to their own. The ability to drop 2 scheme markers in 1 turn is one of the greatest strengths that tots and Hoarcats just can't compete with for some schemes

That's what I thought on paper but it never goes like this on the table for me.

As for competing models:

  • Silurids do drop 2 markers very consistently (which they should as they are nearly twice as expensive). They won't be tied in a fight because you do not have the proper Mask in hand. They also can deal a decent amount of damage which is always interesting.
  • Hoarcats can actually run for scheme and reliably kill other scheme runners. However, I lack practice with this model so maybe I am wrong.
  • For Tots I don't know how to rigorously argue my point though. On paper they are mostly similar. It's just that on the table they always did what I wanted them to do while Gupps have never satisfied me.

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Mine is also Table experience. A lot more of it using Marcus, so they weren't in direct competition, but even when I am in Neverborn I need to have an extra reason for the Tot to replace a gupp. It might just be because I do also use them at other times when I don't have the choice so I am more comfortable with what they do, and I look more for the situations where they excel, and work to avoid the places they are weak. It might also depend on what you face, gupps I find better against Ranged attacks, where Terror tots are better against close combat. 

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