Are Gremlins OP?

[Angelshard]

If he has colloddi, teddy, two coryphee, the pandora and the titania box he can make a decent colloddi crew.

Yes he'll be missing out on the effigy buff, which is one of his greatest strengths, but you can still make a crew that works.

Do you have the wave 5 upgrades? They give quite a boost to titania.

Also I'd suggest you print upgrades and stat cards and try proxying some models. As long as it's not more than  1- 2 per crew it should work just fine.

[dancater]

2 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Just wanted to add that 2017 master upgrade book (and models) gave gremlins 0 new options and fixed none of the issues we have.

There is a reason for extremely low count of players in the gremlin faction, because majority of options are inferior to what other factions have.

Now what gremlins have always been known for is their luck mechanic, if you keep hitting the jackpot every game they might appear powerful.

 

I will disagree here.  Mah Tuckett did pretty well out of Book 5, the others I'm not as certain about regarding power up and the Gremlin Crier is a nice addition.

Agreed that Gremlins are not overwhelming but you are being damn unfair, the Gremlin roll with reckless can be difficult to manage for experienced players let alone a starter, new to the game and playing several of the tougher masters, my main faction is Arcanists and learning with Colette and Kaeris is not ideal.

2 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Ultimately what I am trying to say, is that you should not feel bad for playing the crew you are (because you are definitely not power gaming, not even close).

Instead tell your friend to "get good".

To be honest, and I apologize if this was not the tone you intended, but that is bordering on insulting and quite unfair.  No he is not power gaming, but I am proud that he acknowledges that his friend is struggling and he is worried that he may be, he's taken the time to check.  I am assuming going back to his friend and saying "well get good" will be a very quick way to a one sided games table.  Not helpful, not necessary and by no means deserved or warranted.   

[Ludvig]

Chiming in with Dan here. If someone is miffed by a crew you are playing it's a lot more helpful to ease up on it and let them face something else and telling someone they suck is never helpful. It can be helpful to let them face the same crew over and over so they learn your tricks really well because knowledge of the enemy crew is a big success factor in this game but at the end of the day you want them to enjoy their games so I would advice a soft approach.

It always grinds a bit on the gears to face the same player every game as well, especially if you feel outplayed by them. I had a mate who I played most games exclusively with because we couldn't be bothered to go to game stores and after a couple of years we could almost not play against each other because we became worse people when facing off so we had to find other people to play. The game or list almost didn't matter. I don't suppose you could find a third player to just borrow a crew every now and then?

[Flinroz]

Wow, please do not listen to @PolishSausage. There is a lot of good advice in this thread, but being standoff-ish and argumentative is never a way to get people to have fun with the game.

[Adran]

Whilst I wouldn't recomend Polish Sausage's approach, the sentiment behind it is probably correct. gremlins aren't OP. They don't do better competitively than otehr factions. There are some very strong Gremlin players that do well, but that is true for all factions. One thing that helps Gremlins seem OP when you start is that they are very good at killing things, and most people with any wargame experience look to kill things. This can do well until a player learns that kiling things is not always the way to win, and then they have to change their plan. 

So gremlins can have a relatively shallow learning curve (especially compared to some of the other masters you guys own), but it is certainly possibel that you always win because you are a better player than your opponent, and they may be locked into the wrong mind set. 

This thread

had a discussion on the exact numbers your opponent is talking about, and on page 6, Bazlord Prime shows that the numbers are very misleading, and when you correct for accounts which are not adding to the total score (because it only uses scores from the past year) but still counting for total players they drop to 5th in both the states and UK. 

Trying swapping crews may help. avoiding some models that they hate may help, but what is probably the problem is your opponent isn't as good as you with his crews at the moment. That may be they are more complicated crews, or he hasn't got VP scoring is not the same as killing, or it may just be that he is subject to remembering the bad things more that the good things and actually he is doing as well as you do now. That is a case of you having a better idea of what might work. 

I have a club mate who always remember the bad things in games, and then just avoids the games. He goes into them expecting the worse, and then when the bad things happen uses it as proof the game is unfair. I just decide that if he doesn't want to play, I won't play him and find another opponent because the effort of proving him wrong is just to high. 

[Ludvig]

@Quasari

By the way, you are playing with schemes and strats right? I've heard some new players trying the game without them which is a really bad idea. In any game you should have a mutual strat and choose at least one scheme each, otherwise you will get a really weird idea of the game. It's ok to play a tryout with like only a minion vs a minion to learn more about how flips work but any time you have more than two models on the board you want schemes and strats.

[Quasari]

1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@Quasari

By the way, you are playing with schemes and strats right? I've heard some new players trying the game without them which is a really bad idea. In any game you should have a mutual strat and choose at least one scheme each, otherwise you will get a really weird idea of the game. It's ok to play a tryout with like only a minion vs a minion to learn more about how flips work but any time you have more than two models on the board you want schemes and strats.

Yes, but I don't think either of us play the objectives enough.I like to be killy, so that's what I do often. 

[Ludvig]

It's easy to get into that. Killing can also help since if you remove enough models they can't score most schemes. Putting frame for murder in the pool could make it a bit easier to focus on something else. Giving up after they kill one of your big models turn 1 or 2 is very bad for learning. Playing with that kind of setback and trying to score as many VP as you can is very educational. I've had games where I was a hundred percent sure I had lost because they killed a bunch of my stuff early on but then ended up winning on scheme points. I once had three out of ten models left after turn 2 but still drew the game.

[Ludvig]

Colette can be quite killy if you have the right targets to prompt. With Langston and Joss for example she will do killing just fine. She also has some interesting plays with ranged stuff like december acolytes and her All together now action.

Due to the limited model pool he is kind of forced into a schemey Colette though.

[Quasari]

We just flip strategies/schemes based on the ME core book. I keep seeing 2017 schemes, what's the difference?

[Ludvig]

29 minutes ago, Quasari said:

We just flip strategies/schemes based on the ME core book. I keep seeing 2017 schemes, what's the difference?

They are completely new strategies and schemes. Most follow a similar theme as the old ones but have been rebalanced to promote different things and prevent strange interactions. In about a month there will be new strats and schemes for 2018. 

They come from the official tournament document "Gaining grounds" which gets a new release in January each year. When you are just starting out it doesn't matter much but if you play a lot you will quickly realise some book schemes are very poorly balanced and far to easy to do.

[SevenThirtySeven]

On 12/6/2017 at 5:36 PM, WWHSD said:

That doesn't speak highly for the rest of the Malifaux players in the US.

Didn't you just say in this thread that the rankings site isn't useful?

From playing in several big tournaments across the US, I can assure you the quality of play is high. A US team just went undefeated and won ITC in Europe last year.

The problem with the US rankings site is that it is built off the U.K. site, where it is much easier to attend big tournaments w frequency. The site averages top 4 performances over a single year. In the US, that is much harder due to geography.  As a result, it rewards players who attend lots of events and finish in the top 50%. It punishes players who play in 1-2 big events a year but win them.

I would invite anyone here to attend CaptainCon in Rhode Island in February. 2 day tournament.  Should be a great group of 50+ players, and we would would love to see players from other countries.

[WWHSD]

 

4 minutes ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

Didn't you just say in this thread that the rankings site isn't useful?

From playing in several big tournaments across the US, I can assure you the quality of play is high. A US team just went undefeated and won ITC in Europe last year.

The problem with the US rankings site is that it is built off the U.K. site, where it is much easier to attend big tournaments w frequency. The site averages top 4 performances over a single year. In the US, that is much harder due to geography.  As a result, it rewards players who attend lots of events and finish in the top 50%. It punishes players who play in 1-2 big events a year but win them.

I would invite anyone here to attend CaptainCon in Rhode Island in February. 2 day tournament.  Should be a great group of 50+ players, and we would would love to see players from other countries.

 

I'm busting the balls of #10 on the list, who I play with some frequency. 

[SevenThirtySeven]

48 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

 

 

I'm busting the balls of #10 on the list, who I play with some frequency. 

Got it. Internet is hard 😂

[WWHSD]

47 minutes ago, SevenThirtySeven said:

Got it. Internet is hard 😂

I should have emoted for clarity. It probably wasn't clear to everyone what I was getting at.

Rereading what I wrote, I could see how it would be easy to assume I was crapping on US players.

 

[SAYNE]

Honestly I don't think there's too much more to add from what was already stated. Maybe ask your friend to try listening to some podcasts of their masters? I know Schemes & Stones has some informative stuff on each master in the game. Kyodee brings in some top players from around the UK and American scene. Learned a lot just from listening a little.

Although, I'd listen too if he does so you don't end up behind the curve too far ;D

[I'm a Teapot!]

20 hours ago, SAYNE said:

Honestly I don't think there's too much more to add from what was already stated. Maybe ask your friend to try listening to some podcasts of their masters? I know Schemes & Stones has some informative stuff on each master in the game. Kyodee brings in some top players from around the UK and American scene. Learned a lot just from listening a little.

Although, I'd listen too if he does so you don't end up behind the curve too far ;D

Just make sure your not missing the date of the schemes and stones episode when you try to use the information. While those spotlights are really nice, some of them are outdated by 2 years. But the faction discussion forum often has master tactica threads that should be somewhat up to date and those are really helpfull in my opinion.

[Sklertic]

I think Gremlins can be hard on new players, as they (the new players) tend to focus more on the combat side of the game, than scoring points, so I get where your friend is coming from.

Try swapping crews, or suggest he should build a terror crew with Pandora, as that can be tough on Gremlin. due to their low wp.

When I started playing, many years ago, I lost the first 10-12 matches just learning the game and my crew, and Malifaux can be really hard on new players, so encourage him to experiment with his crews (and maybe don't take francois in all your games  ) and I bet he will come around.

Remember a Malifaux table is supposed to have lots of terrain, so a gunline won't dominate easily.

 

Those are my 2 cents, hope you guys get back to playing.

[Bazlord_Prime]

On 08/12/2017 at 6:48 AM, Quasari said:

We just flip strategies/schemes based on the ME core book. I keep seeing 2017 schemes, what's the difference?

I found trying to learn everything pretty overwhelming at first (all the text on each model's card, all the rules, and how & when they apply), so if you guys are feeling that way too, perhaps just decide on one Strategy, and two Schemes, and just play those until you get used to them. 

That'll at least show you what the game looks like when you're playing it fully, and you'll both get used to the idea of killing with a purpose (Headhunter, A Quick Murder, etc), putting down Scheme Markers for points, and getting rid of your opponent's to deny them theirs (Claim Jump, Covert Breakthrough, etc), positioning your models for points (Interference, Extraction, etc), and those that are a mixture of the above (Dig Their Graves, Hidden Trap, etc). 

Guarantee that you & your friend will discover a whole new level of enjoyment in the game once you start using Schemes & Strats. Just take it easy on yourself as you learn. Winning & losing really don't matter at this stage, so just write off any mistakes as part of the learning process.

Grab one or both of the free apps, if you haven't already - I still find CrewFaux easiest for playing with (and it has a very easy to access database of all the Strats & Schemes), while purchasing the cards in the official Wyrd Malifaux app is some of the best value out there (you get all of the information for each model, so you can read up and plot during your downtime ;-)