Educate me on Molly

[mo11usq]

I started malifaux 'shadow boxing' with a friend recently, quite a fun way to pass a commute or a lazy evening, so I thought i'd try it on here and see if I can gleen more Molly insight from you good people. If the experiment works I might make a new post and open it up to all Resurrs, but for now - you have got Ms Squidpiddge.

Your opponent has declaired: Neverborn

The pool is:

Standard Deployment
Ply For Information

Surround Them
Covert Breakthrough
Dig Their Graves
Inescapable Trap
Show Of Force

The Table is this:

What crew do you bring?

[tomhorstmann]

So this is a bit of a wall of text, but I wanted to lay out some thoughts I've had on Spirit Molly. I played Ressers a ton last year, and played Kirai and Molly almost exclusively. I originally started playing Horror Molly, but once I had a deeper toolbox from my Kirai crew, I started taking Forgotten Path, and have found it has several strategies/tactics I find super interesting and powerful. Whether any flavor of Molly has a place at all in GG18 is somewhat questionable, as I think Molly really shined in Extraction and Guard the Stash, whereas now the only strategy that encourages your opponent to cluster is on Jokers. Furthermore, she gains relatively little from Asura Roten, as she doesn't use corpse markers, and while Kentauri are great, Molly has always had access to an 8 stone model who can move her around, so she won't actually be gaining any mobility. But who cares, Molly is lovable and fast and fun, so let's talk about her.

Spirit Molly vs Horror Molly

While still very aggressive, I think Spirit Molly plays very differently from Horror Molly. If you intend to just fly to the opponent's deployment zone and summon in their face, Horror Molly is much less card intensive and probably more threatening as well. Horror Molly is also arguably stronger in situations where your opponent clumps up heavily, although I find that if you can summon 3+wd models off of Molly, it doesn't really matter what you're summoning. What Spirit Molly excels at, in my opinion, is board control. In maps with heavy terrain, particularly with choke points (like the one above), being able to summon Hanged to lock down firing lanes, in addition to having access to mainly incorporeal or flying models, is an enormous advantage. Furthermore, I think Spirit Molly is much better at killing dangerous, expensive models because of Adversary and again, the Hanged. Considering GG18 has no strategies that demand a cluster in the center of the map, and in general seems to be pushing the meta toward taking pricier, more impactful models, I actually think Spirit Molly may be better suited for the coming year than Horror Molly.

General game plans with Molly:

1 - Area denial with hanged and belles

As I mentioned earlier, I really love taking Spirit Molly in maps with lots of blocking and severe terrain, particularly with chokepoints. If your opponent is playing one or more 10+SS models, all the better, as Spirit Molly is very good at isolating and deleting any single model. You want to use Molly's mobility to set up a rapid stranglehold over key areas of the map. A typical turn one should look like this: Drop scheme markers to feed Phillip and sculpt your hand while you wait for your opponent to overextend any model. Even if your opponent is playing cagily, if you are running Sybelle with MLH, she can move up and call a Rotten Belle and Molly. Lure the model into range, then summon a hanged. Don't summon any more yet! Save your high cards to use Molly's (0) and have The Hanged Whispers from Beyond onto a beater or master. Summon another hanged if you can, doxies or belles if not (summoning 1hp Goryo and Shikome in the middle of the board is trading Master AP for minion AP, bad times. Also uses high cards you want to save for attacks.). Accomplice into the hanged, whispers again. It's not at all uncommon end turn one with Molly and a small entourage in position, their master and beatstick on half wounds and unable to heal.

Don't worry at all about summoning Hanged with just one wound (though of course if your opponent allows you to summon them healthier, by all means do so). Even on one wound you get to fire two shots off, often at strange angles, before your opponent gets to react. If you lured your victim into Whispers range, it's not uncommon to have a 1wd hanged survive for a turn or two out of range of reprisal. Be careful to not overextend. You don't need to actively get kills, instead set your lures up so you can murder anything that comes out and run schemes if they cower. The window of opportunity in which your opponent can prevent themselves from being boxed out is tiny, and if they don't fully commit to escape, they will bleed too many models to win. Even if your opponent reacts quickly, they often need to bunch up to do so, in which case you start summoning 3+ wound models into their crew. Your principle should be to walk as little as possible with your threatening models, so that all your AP can be used on attacks and summons, while forcing your opponent to do nothing or spend AP walking into your range.

Knowing when the board permits you to box your opponent in definitely takes some trial and error, as some terrain setups are more open than they appear. In particular, setups with lots of small LoS blocking crates or trees, but few terrain pieces that actually restrict movement, are very punishing if you overextend. Some crews are also impossible to contain - either because they are hyper-mobile, or because they have a mechanic that allows them to progress towards victory from behind cover (mainly summoners, but some other masters like Reva and Yan Lo can also ruin you if you don't pressure them.) I'll go into how I approach those crews next.

2 - Belle bombing

Molly's summoning mechanic lines up very poorly against low-impact models running down flanks. Against crews trying spread across the board and run schemes, my midgame objective is to have summoned a TON of belles. It's not difficult to summon three Belles/Doxies on turn one, and from there, set up lures so that future summons are healthier. Datsue Ba shines in these games, as she can maintain activation control by summoning Seishin and Gaki, and both Weigh Sins and Denial of Sanzu are huge against scheme runners. Be really careful to not just summon the most expensive model you can every round. Hanged are miserable against random 5wd models, so it's often much better to summon a Shikome (who are now a bit cheaper!) to go run schemes and save the 13 for an important duel. Basically, if your opponent's game plan is to scatter, pull them in. A flock of belles will shred most scheme runners, particularly if you are running Asura Roten (and you usually should be) so they can pounce on min 2 damage. There's nothing about this that Horror Molly can't do (I think Molly players should be summoning Belles and Doxies more often in general), but I find that Horror Molly tends to have a bit more space in the crew to run Rogue Necromancies or Valedictorians or whatever to just kill scheme runners, while my Spirit Molly crews lean heavier on utility models.

3 - Aggressive pressure

This is basically the same playstyle as Horror Molly - fling Molly up the board and gum up their works with black blood summons. Unlike the other two plans, you care very much about summoning healthy models, as many and as fast as possible. Incorporeal gets much better when you can summon with more wounds, which is nice. Onryo, who I believe are garbage in most situations, tend to overperform here, as their Haunt and Persecute abilities are actually relevant when summoned into your opponents models. Along with any Hanged, you can force lots of medium TN duels to pressure your opponents hand as well as their models and AP. Keep in mind which models can apply Adversary, and if you manage to trigger it, capitalize heavily. While this is happening, the rest of your crew can walk up. Be ready to pull Molly back with Belles (or Sybelle if you are running her)  if your opponent is dealing with your summons fast enough to threaten her. Keep in mind that Whispered Secret can really mess up a summoner or pricey enforcer (as they can't stone to negate the -), and is often well worth an AP and a high card, while Revelation is a perfectly respectable attack. I find the spirit toolboxy games can be somewhat messy, and they require you to understand your models' strengths and limitations. I'll get into my hot takes about that in another post (Sybelle still has play, Izamu is a trap, etc), as it's getting pretty late and this post is already much longer than I intended. Hopefully some of this is useful!

[mo11usq]

@tomhorstmann superb post

[thatlatinspeakingguy]

@mo11usq are you sure it's a good idea to bring Molly into Ply for Information? I can imagine that the strategy will restrict when and where it is reasonable to summon something. Beside that, seeing that lava pool I would be super excited about all those Doxy pushes straight into the fray.

@tomhorstmann looking forward for second post. However, I have one remark: you can't use MLH like that:

3 hours ago, tomhorstmann said:

A typical turn one should look like this: Drop scheme markers to feed Phillip and sculpt your hand while you wait for your opponent to overextend any model. Even if your opponent is playing cagily, you can have Sybelle walk up, pop MLH, and call a Rotten Belle and Molly.

 

[tomhorstmann]

4 hours ago, thatlatinspeakingguy said:

looking forward for second post. However, I have one remark: you can't use MLH like that:

You're totally correct, my phrasing here is poor. You have to expend MLH at the start of turn one, not during Sybelle's activation, but you can use call belle twice. I've edited the post to correct.

[mo11usq]

@thatlatinspeakingguy I personally suspect Molly's primary summoning mechanic struggles in a number of the new strategies and schemes, ply being one of them, but I'm happy to be educated by those who know her better.

When learning a Master I think it is good to take them into any and every pool that comes up. The pool above was just the first one I randomly generated. I'd actually find it quite tricky to build for, I think Neverborn have strong options here, and I am pulled in a number of directions with Molly, so I'm interested to see what others come up with.

[tomhorstmann]

Alrighty, in this post I'll be rambling about common hires for Spirit Molly. I'm not going to bother describing what their actions do, as hopefully we all have the rulebooks or cards, I'll just run my digital mouth about my experiences and opinions. This will probably end up being very long, but hopefully someone finds it useful.

In no particular order, here's my take on the POTENTIAL MOLLY HIRES

Izamu:
I think Izamu is a trap. Though he has fairly good attacks and is mostly durable, he is painfully slow in a very fast crew, and doesn't provide any utility. I started out running him quite a bit, since I figured belles and doxies could lure things into his range or push him forward, but why bother? Izamu's role is to deal damage and be tanky. Your summons deal plenty of damage, and will be prioritized over Izamu, making his tankiness moot. Even his durability is questionable - anything that ignores armor will tear through Def 4/WP 5. It's not that he's awful, but he takes too much effort and costs far too much. No thank you, take anything else.

Carrion Emissary:
Carrion Emissary is just excellent, as always. I highly recommend taking the generic conflux and making a real effort to keep him safe. + flips are great for any card intensive crew, but particularly with Belles and Hanged, since their long range lets you keep the Emissary back a little. Being able to cycle cards is definitely relevant as well. You lose the ability to close off part of the map with MLH->double shards, but Spirit Molly's crew is ranged, so LoS blocking is double edged. I think it's very tempting to get too cute with Shards in general, and you can end up exposing your Emissary to danger trying to place them forward instead of just placing them right next to your crew. A note: Emissary, Sybelle, and Datsue Ba all have abilities that require a 7-8 to hit their TN, and you really don't want to cheat higher cards that could be used for summons. If you take two of them, don't expect to be able to use both abilities every turn. I've run all 3, and while it's incredible when you have the cards, I don't recommend it, as an unlucky hand means half your crew is underperforming.

Datsue Ba:
She has absurd utility - her entire card is full of text, even before upgrades! I think she really shines in pools where Denial of Sanzu will be disruptive - Symbols of Authority, Recover Evidence, Covert Breakthrough and the like. Both Denial and Weigh Sins really do mess up scheme runners, but she's no slouch at supporting the scrum as well. Think carefully about what you want from her activation. As Weigh Sins has a high TN and you want to cheat its 1/2/6 damage track, you should almost always focus before using it, so make it count. Killing a model from 6 wds and summoning a 4ss model is pretty incredible, and will swing the game in a big way. However, it's sometimes more important to get Adversary onto an opposing model and save the severe to summon with Molly. Her Guide Spirits (0) is free AP at worst, but often much more considering many of your models have incorporeal or flying. I love using Guide Spirits to move Hanged or Goryo through walls your opponent is hiding behind. Additionally, as I mentioned in the area denial section of my last post, you often forward summon Hanged on 1wd. Usually, you either have to give the Hanged up or activate it early to move it back, removing its threat for that turn. Datsue Ba lets that Hanged walk outside of their activation so they can keep their threat bubble live.

For upgrades, Spirit Whispers is interesting, and I'm on the fence about it. Summoning Seishin is great for activation control, and healing Molly's low health summons is no joke. That said, Datsue Ba is already choked on (0) actions, and requiring yet another 8 to hit the TN is really rough. Taking Spirit Whispers also makes MLH tempting, at which point we're looking at a 10ss model. Non-master summoning is really powerful, so right now I'm leaning towards taking Spirit Whispers if you have spare soulstones, but it's one of the first things on the chopping block. It's certainly not stapled to Datsue Ba's card.

Madame Sybelle & Kentauroi:
I suspect this is going to be the most controversial opinion, as I know most players don't rate Sybelle, and Kentauroi are the new hotness. I think you should always take one or the other to propel Molly. Sybelle is extremely medium at basically everything. Kentauroi on the other hand have a massive 13" threat range on min 3 damage (kind of 4 with Infect), and don't need cards to carry models around (which frankly makes me kind of angry). However, there are three things that Sybelle does that the Kentauroi can't that I think are extremely valuable, and as such she is still my preferred choice for my Molly shuttle. 

First, and most importantly, she all but guarantees that Molly can summon on turn 1 even against the most defensive opponents. With MLH, she can Call Belle twice on turn one to advance both Molly and a Rotten Belle, allowing the Belle to lure a model for Molly to summon off of. I have yet to play on a board that can hide models from that kind of threat projection. This does require two 8+ cards, in addition to cards to lure and summon, so it's not trivial, but it is really powerful. Plenty of opponents will just blithely walk models in range of lures, making this unnecessary. Better players, though, will do their best to hide their key models, and Sybelle makes it incredibly difficult to hide. Second, Sybelle is better at pulling Molly out of trouble. Consider a situation where your opponent charges, engaging Molly and her taxi. Kentauri can charge out of engagements, but they only carry other models on Walk actions. Sybelle can walk to the edge of a model's engagement and Call Belle, placing Molly on the opposite side, outside of engagement. Lastly, Sybelle pressures your opponent's hand. Between Terrifying, Attend to Personally, and Death Mark, she can force a fair number of medium TN tests or discards. You have to use all these 7-8 value cards proactively, making your opponents use theirs defensively really equalizes the playing field. 

As far as upgrades, MLH is a must. While I like the effects of her unique upgrades, I don't think either one of them is worth a soulstone. Both Unnerving Aura and Decaying Aura are interesting on her, but I suspect they make her too much of an investment. She's fairly sturdy, but there's enough Min 3 damage around now that 9 wounds, Def 6 HtW can evaporate if your opponent needs it to. I think you're best off making your opponent unhappy to target her, so run her as lean as her zaftig frame permits.

In summary, Kentauroi are more blatantly dangerous models, and don't tax your resources at all. Sybelle provides more versatility, and in my opinion she gets better the better your opponent is, as she can both crack defenses and salvage unexpected nightmare scenarios. It's entirely possible I overvalue her, but I believe her skill ceiling is quite high. Which one you take depends on the map, the rest of your crew, and your opponent. One last note - as Kentauroi are obviously not spirits, and Sybelle is inexplicably not a belle, neither of them gains Black Blood, so be mindful of their placement.

Philip and the Nanny:
It should be clear by now that Spirit Molly is incredibly card hungry. In addition to what I've said about medium cards for utility TNs, the main draw to Forgotten Path is that it lets you summon Hanged and attack with them as soon as turn 1. Hanged need a 13 or Red Joker to summon. Because of this, Philip and the Nanny is first model of this list that I will ALWAYS take. Between P&N, stoning for cards, and Carrion Conflux, we can see up to 14 cards a turn (15 with MLH). This is far from a guarantee that we will draw a 13+, but makes it much more likely. Even if you miss on 13s, a high volume of cards is the lifeblood of any summoner. I've found it to be huge that P&N actually draw cards, not just filter. In the middle turns of the game, players usually race to get their impactful activations done before their models die, or to kill off enemies before they can activate. Often this leaves players with their hands spent really quickly. P&N can help you reset after a bunch of high cards bounce off of each other, and continue to play while your opponent is out of gas. Even drawing low cards is good, since they can feed Molly's Df/Wp trigger. On turns 4-5 I'll usually use Phil to score and deny schemes. Chatty and ranged scheme marker removal are both fantastic denial tools, and Pram lets Doxies and Belles throw him wherever he needs to be. It bears repeating - I would not consider playing Spirit Molly without Philip and the Nanny. She needs the cards to function, and brings a crew that excels at feeding him early and moving him around late.

Rotten Belle:
Your main minion. You'll need to hire at least one, I'll usually hire two, and I wouldn't fault anyone for a third. Probably too good with any master, Belles synergize so well with Molly. They give her the models she needs to summon off of, she gives them Black Blood and can summon more to set up little clusters for pounces. Similar to Sybelle, they put a lot of pressure on your opponents hand. Even if you don't hit the discard trigger, Lures and Slow are both threatening enough that your opponent will often want to cheat to resist them, lowering their ability to attack you. In general Belles are also underrated as summons. If you're only able to summon a model at 1wd, summoning a Belle is usually better than a Shikome, Goryo, or Drowned. The Belle can give out slow, or lure an enemy so that it has to waste AP walking back into position. If they spend further AP killing it, it's already done quite well, if they don't, you can try and maneuver it to join a Belle bomb.

Doxy:
I'll sometimes hire one, but you need to make sure you have enough Rotten Belles first. Also, 6ss is edging close to the 8ss mark of massive utility models. Their 10" range is soooo much less than the Belle's 18" (though if you are running Sybelle, she can Call Belle to the other side of her base, and then the doxy can walk 6" before taking the lead, making the effective threat range much wider). Since they can only Take The Lead once per turn, and it needs yet another 7 for its TN, focus first, even if you're advancing your own models. While Belles want to draw things in, Doxies are best when pushing targets away. Belles, Onryo, and Molly herself can apply Slow, and pushing a slowed melee model away is brutal. Keep an eye out for hazardous terrain and opportunities to cause falling damage, but don't get too cute. While I'm not sure Doxies would be better hires than Belles even if they were the same SS cost, they are definitely better summons. Everything I said about summoning Belles applies to Doxies, only more so. Their lower range doesn't matter when you summon, pushing is more flexible than luring, and handing out fast on death is *chef's kiss*. Ml 6 and min 2 damage is also getting close to an actual attack, unlike the Belle who should only attack off of pounces. Unfortunately, whatever fraction of a soulstone that improved attack is costing goes to waste if we bring Asura Roten, so let's talk about her now.

Asura Roten:
Another powerful Wave 5 model, Asura Roten brings two main things to the crew: activation control with no card investment, and a min 2 dmg attack for Belles to pounce with. She also has the dubious quality of carrying a giant target on her head that can distract opponents from actual threats. Unfortunately this is where her value ends, and I'm not sure yet whether it's worth 8 stones. I've been using her to feed Philip and the Nanny early on since her actual activations are not so good, then advancing her to the side of the action to bait enemies into Hanged whispers and Belle lures. I like that she brings something to the table without needing resources, but 8 stones is a lot. I also think she is overperforming because my opponents have jumped through hoops to kill her, which is kind of like luring for free. If left alone, she's a terrible scheme runner that wastes a tiny bit of AP by tying models up with Mindless Zombies. Considering how strong she can be with other masters, I wouldn't be surprised to see her cost go up by a stone in the future, at which point I'd probably not consider her for Molly. I'd love to hear other people's experiences with her though!

Nurse:
Pre-errata, I ran a Nurse in every crew, as she could feed Philip and the Nanny, and usually had one spectacular turn with Take Your Meds shutting down an expensive model or master. I figure a significant activation alone is worth about 3ss, and access to the toolbox was worth paying 2ss more. At 6 stones, I think she really needs to get off at least two useful Take Your Meds turns to be worth her cost, and TYM is too situational and card intensive to guarantee that. GG17 also tended to draw people toward the middle of the map, so you could put her slightly away from the action and know her very slow Wk would be enough to get her in range of several targets. Access to condition removal and good ranged attacks has also crept up over time. If I figure out a super-lean crew, playing a Nurse isn't out of the question, but for now I think she gets a well-deserved break.

So that's my thoughts on hires for Molly. You'll notice that only one of the models is a beater, and it's one I don't recommend. It's my experience with Molly that as long as you can enable her summoning and control the pace of the game, damage just kind of happens. I'll go into her summons in my next post, as well as models I want to try. Thanks to anyone who made it through this! If you have any questions, or if you think I'm a big idiot with bad opinions, I'd love to hear about it. I'm new to posting on the forums, but as is probably clear, I love thinking about and playing Malifaux.

[tomhorstmann]

On 1/20/2018 at 4:37 PM, mo11usq said:

What crew do you bring?

This is exactly the kind of setup that would make me consider Spirit Molly. There are so many choke points that encourage your opponent to bunch up or trickle in, allowing you to either summon into a cluster or slow their crew down as you eat through models with Hanged. After the carnage, you have flying and incorporeal to grab Surround Them and/or Covert Breakthrough. I think I'd run:

Molly, Forgotten Path, Take Back the Night, Wronged Spirits, 6ss cache

Philip and the Nanny, Haunting Cries

Madame Sybelle, My Little Helper

Carrion Emissary, Carrion Conflux

Rotten Belle

Rotten Belle

Crooligan

Crooligan
 

I don't always love Crooligans, but they look excellent here. With this pool, they can feed Philip turn 1, set up Dig Their Graves on turn 2, and work on Ply and Surround Them/Covert Breakthrough if they make it to the end. At Ht 1, they should be able to interact and place to hide in most circumstances. The Mist could even see play here, if our opponent decided to run the newly buffed Tuco, or if they run Changelings and Trappers to abuse fire lanes themselves. Are the platforms on the East side really not climbable? If so, I'm happy deploying second to place Sybelle/Molly/Belle reactively. If they are climbable, I would hope to deploy first in order to avoid being forced into deploying on the West side, since the opponent can spill over the platforms and spread out. I think I prefer the North and East sides in general, as they funnel the most, but against Lilith I would deploy first and choose South, since there's no way for her to set up forests and advance safely turn 1 from the North.

Against Neverborn, in this pool, I would expect either Collodi, Titania, Dreamer, or Lilith. We can also expect to see Nekima, who is a very real concern at WP7, and almost certainly carrying Malifaux Provides, so we will have to successfully whispers twice to stop her from healing. Try to deploy as far as possible from her and summon a bunch of models off of something else. Once you out-activate your opponent you can run a Crooligan next to her to reduce her WP and then shut her down. We can also use Molly's Revelation to Paralyze her once Malifaux Provides is gone. Thankfully she can't Blood for Blood to kill our 1wd models, so we can trade trash summons for her AP until she is vulnerable. Expect to burn through stones like crazy turns 1 and 2 in order to contain her, but afterwards we should have a lot of models and our opponent will be down 15ss. I like our position against Collodi and Titania, but against Lilith, it really depends how patient they are. If they overextend even a little, I think they will collapse very quickly, as Lilith can't really afford to lose models for nothing. We're also compelled to deploy first, so dealing with Nekima will be messier.  If they manage to grab South, they can hide behind forests until they can explode out, and our crew does nothing until it summons. Against Dreamer, as against all summoners, try and pressure as quickly as possible. Spirit Molly vs summoners is always unpredictable, but our card draw is much better, and if we manage to get the Emissary in range by luring it forward with our Belles, we have a big advantage. If the opponent takes any other master, this shouldn't even be close. 

EDIT: As a side note, I think this list would demolish anything but Neverborn. Against Neverborn, however, if I had access to all Masters, I would just choose Kirai. Nekima is the real problem here, and Kirai can just sit back turn 1 and summon Goryo and Shikome to threaten her. Ikiryo is also a problem for Nekima. Since she doesn't need to take Sybelle as a taxi, she can take Datsue Ba, who looks great into this pool and on this map. If they aren't running Nekima for whatever reason, you can use Asura or Datsue Ba to summon chaff models and forward summon Hanged to close off the many choke points on this map. 

[Stewbert]

6 hours ago, tomhorstmann said:

This is exactly the kind of setup that would make me consider Spirit Molly. There are so many choke points that encourage your opponent to bunch up or trickle in, allowing you to either summon into a cluster or slow their crew down as you eat through models with Hanged. After the carnage, you have flying and incorporeal to grab Surround Them and/or Covert Breakthrough. I think I'd run:

Molly, Forgotten Path, Take Back the Night, Wronged Spirits, 6ss cache

Philip and the Nanny, Haunting Cries

Madame Sybelle, My Little Helper

Carrion Emissary, Carrion Conflux

Rotten Belle

Rotten Belle

Crooligan

Crooligan
 

I don't always love Crooligans, but they look excellent here. With this pool, they can feed Philip turn 1, set up Dig Their Graves on turn 2, and work on Ply and Surround Them/Covert Breakthrough if they make it to the end. At Ht 1, they should be able to interact and place to hide in most circumstances. The Mist could even see play here, if our opponent decided to run the newly buffed Tuco, or if they run Changelings and Trappers to abuse fire lanes themselves. Are the platforms on the East side really not climbable? If so, I'm happy deploying second to place Sybelle/Molly/Belle reactively. If they are climbable, I would hope to deploy first in order to avoid being forced into deploying on the West side, since the opponent can spill over the platforms and spread out. I think I prefer the North and East sides in general, as they funnel the most, but against Lilith I would deploy first and choose South, since there's no way for her to set up forests and advance safely turn 1 from the North.

Against Neverborn, in this pool, I would expect either Collodi, Titania, Dreamer, or Lilith. We can also expect to see Nekima, who is a very real concern at WP7, and almost certainly carrying Malifaux Provides, so we will have to successfully whispers twice to stop her from healing. Try to deploy as far as possible from her and summon a bunch of models off of something else. Once you out-activate your opponent you can run a Crooligan next to her to reduce her WP and then shut her down. We can also use Molly's Revelation to Paralyze her once Malifaux Provides is gone. Thankfully she can't Blood for Blood to kill our 1wd models, so we can trade trash summons for her AP until she is vulnerable. Expect to burn through stones like crazy turns 1 and 2 in order to contain her, but afterwards we should have a lot of models and our opponent will be down 15ss. I like our position against Collodi and Titania, but against Lilith, it really depends how patient they are. If they overextend even a little, I think they will collapse very quickly, as Lilith can't really afford to lose models for nothing. We're also compelled to deploy first, so dealing with Nekima will be messier.  If they manage to grab South, they can hide behind forests until they can explode out, and our crew does nothing until it summons. Against Dreamer, as against all summoners, try and pressure as quickly as possible. Spirit Molly vs summoners is always unpredictable, but our card draw is much better, and if we manage to get the Emissary in range by luring it forward with our Belles, we have a big advantage. If the opponent takes any other master, this shouldn't even be close. 

EDIT: As a side note, I think this list would demolish anything but Neverborn. Against Neverborn, however, if I had access to all Masters, I would just choose Kirai. Nekima is the real problem here, and Kirai can just sit back turn 1 and summon Goryo and Shikome to threaten her. Ikiryo is also a problem for Nekima. Since she doesn't need to take Sybelle as a taxi, she can take Datsue Ba, who looks great into this pool and on this map. If they aren't running Nekima for whatever reason, you can use Asura or Datsue Ba to summon chaff models and forward summon Hanged to close off the many choke points on this map. 

I don't believe crooligans can interact to feed Philip with scheme markers turn 1 if that's the intention. From the shadows puts a stop to that

[mo11usq]

I continue to be impressed by the quality of thinking going into this thread, great stuff, I am learning a lot.

Particularly enjoyed the discussion of deployment strategy. Would count the platforms as climbable for sure.

In terms of the crew for the example set up I see some great strengths in the one @tomhorstmann put forward. With show of force we are expecting to see an enrichment of enemy enforcers and henchmen which, as was pointed out, are prey for hanged. I love the emissary with generic conflux, (+) flips are all kinds of wonderful for Molly's minions, and combined with Sybelle all belles go to walk 7. P&N's chatty is nice. I also rate Crooligans for ply and surround them, although 

Quote

they can feed Philip turn 1

This is not possible as their thrice cursed 'from the shadows' ability prevents it. I would also be concerned by the lack of upgrades for denying show of force without a commensurate overload of backfield marker droppers to dictate the terms of the game the other way. However, I am coming to appreciate that playing resurrs is the art of scheming with the unseen, and some well timed summons could well achieve this.

My immediate reaction was to take Spirit Molly and Datsue Ba with MLH and spirit whispers with the intent to get Datsue into position where she could put up the whispers aura and go defensive (T2 likely being also protected by MLH, and bolstering Molly's hand further), then reap the reward of incidental marker drop as the enemy kills their way through Molly's summons choking up the narrow central access points. Something like:

Molly - forgotten path, back on the job, wronged spirits (7ss cache)
Philip and the Nanny - haunting cries, take back the night
Madam Sybelle - my little helper
Datsue Ba - spirit whispers, my little helper
Rotten Belle
Necropunk
Necropunk 

Performers could also be amazing.

However, Neverborn are a serious concern. 'Malifaux Provides' is simply excellent in show of force with marker drop schemes like dig and inescapable, as well as against Molly's condition game. The ability of Lilith (tangle shadows e.g. using primordial magic), Titania (audience) and Collodi (obscene lures per turn) to isolate a model (a low wound summon, say) ply the hell out of it then kill it for dig is very strong, especially with cyclops (and illusionary forests) to hinder Molly's summoning vectors. The number of damaging casts they have access to is also of concern for spirits (namely Datsue Ba), but I think this can be overstated.

Given the threat of Lilith, I'd be tempted to just go for the throat with something like:

Molly - forgotten life (7ss cache)
Philip and the Nanny - haunting cries
Madam Sybelle/Kentauroi
Killjoy - decaying aura
Necropunk
Necropunk
Necropunk

Haven't quite figured out the Joybomb crew yet, want at least 8 activations, but also want Philip's cards or it risks falling on its face. Difficult to fit when the pool demands significant models.

 

[McSkip]

First, I have to say your posts are really spot on and much to think about tomhorstmann, thank you very much!

When you deploy crooligans the normal way, cant they just interact?

One option to handle lures and tangled shadows is Anna, she stops that kind of crap and rush of magic is always welcome

 

 

[mo11usq]

Quote

When you deploy crooligans the normal way, cant they just interact?

Nope, any model with FtS cannot interact turn one, regardless of where you put them.

Quote

One option to handle lures and tangled shadows is Anna

Anna stops tangle shadows, good shout. However, it is only enemy model push or movement she stops, luring your models is fair game.

[McSkip]

yes you`re right its enemy models, clockwork dress is not the easyiest special rule

[tomhorstmann]

Ew, you guys are totally right about Crooligans. I haven't used them in ages, precisely because of From the Shadows non-synergy, and had forgotten why I'm not a fan. That's frustrating, I really love Always on the Move. Both Creepy and Blistering Fog (if you get it off) are useful once you out-activate your opponent if you jump in before Molly summons 3 times. I still might run one Crooligan here, everything else about them seems so good, but would replace the second with some other 4ss minion to drop a scheme marker on turn 1. I haven't tried them yet, but Little Gasser looks like it could be very good at filling the random 4ss minion role. It seems solid at tangling with miscellaneous cheap models in the flanks or on our backline. I can also definitely see circumstances where you double walk it into the scrum, hand out Poison to a crowd of models, and splash out a ton of black blood when your models take Poison damage. It also turns on Scent of Death for Shikome, and charging with summoned models is pretty great. That's a lot of potential at a very low investment.

10 hours ago, mo11usq said:

I would also be concerned by the lack of upgrades for denying show of force without a commensurate overload of backfield marker droppers to dictate the terms of the game the other way

I would love it if our opponent chose Show of Force and grouped up in the center. The first VP for it is free, but then they've let us summon healthy models and we can just kill everything. We can also summon doxies to push the enemy out of the scoring area, or lure them out with Belles. No plan survives contact with the enemy and all that, but I can't imagine Show of Force getting 3vp against Molly, and denying the second seems entirely possible.

 

11 hours ago, mo11usq said:

My immediate reaction was to take Spirit Molly and Datsue Ba with MLH and spirit whispers with the intent to get Datsue into position where she could put up the whispers aura and go defensive (T2 likely being also protected by MLH, and bolstering Molly's hand further), then reap the reward of incidental marker drop as the enemy kills their way through Molly's summons choking up the narrow central access points. Something like:

Molly - forgotten path, back on the job, wronged spirits (7ss cache)
Philip and the Nanny - haunting cries, take back the night
Madam Sybelle - my little helper
Datsue Ba - spirit whispers, my little helper
Rotten Belle
Necropunk
Necropunk 

Performers could also be amazing.

Using Spirit Whispers to drop scheme markers is really cool, as Datsue Ba can enable both Dig Their Graves and Inescapable Trap on her own if left unmolested. I'm not a fan of Inescapable Trap though, since I would hope to have killed too much by the end of turn 4 to score the full 3vp. I also worry about requiring such a fragile and expensive model to be within 6" of the action. Even with MLH, Collodi and Titania have the mobility to get within 3" of her and delete her with Casts, while Lilith and Nekima can just fly next to her. All 4 of them have higher attacking stats than Datsue Ba's appropriate defensive stat, so even on +flips from Defensive I don't see how she stays alive. Even if she does survive, spamming scheme markers is risky against Titania, Cyclops, and Malifaux Provides. I definitely don't use the Whispers aura enough, but it looks like a big gamble in the Neverborn matchup.

I haven't run Necropunks with Molly. I know they're very popular though, and I like them a lot with other masters. Do you find that you need flanking scheme runners with Molly? And have you found it to be a problem hitting the TN for leap? They seem better to me with Horrors, both in playstyle and resource management, but table experience is better than Theoryfaux.

Performers really do seem fantastic here. I could see swapping out Sybelle for a Kentauri and upgrading a 5ss model into a Performer.

[Fetid Strumpet]

Crooligans have a place again I find if you make your list with Asura, as long as they deploy in range of Asura. She actually makes them forward deploying assault batteries. Assuming you don’t need to move or go defensive they can focus and then hands from below anything that moves up and that makes anything Molly wants to summon on them hit more reliably.

[tomhorstmann]

2 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Assuming you don’t need to move or go defensive they can focus and then hands from below anything that moves up and that makes anything Molly wants to summon on them hit more reliably.

That's kinda rad, I hate that the Crooligan does nothing turn one, and at least this is something. I don't play Seamus but I could see it being really nice with him, since making his gun effectively Sh 7(or even more!) is a pretty big game.

EDIT: Oh wow, Def -1 is way better than Sh +1 for Seamus isn't it, cause the Copycat Killer can use it too? Hmm.

[hydranixx]

If you're ever unsure, there's no reason you can't hire both Necropunk(s) AND Crooligan(s). They go about Scheming in very different ways but they're both capable and expendable in equal measure. 9ss is hardly breaking the bank.

Molly-wise, I played her rounds 4 and 5 in a recent tournament; a narrow 5-4 win on Spirits and a 7-7 draw on Horrors respectively.

It was definitely useful trying both options out on the same day and comparing results. With Spirits I pressured the enemy master (Asami) quite early, ate her hand and most of her wounds, and then finished her off and swamped the board by turn 3. With Horrors I only summoned twice so I focused more on attacking and debuffings to help my hired models do work, before running Molly away so she didn't give up VP.

I still reckon the Horror summoning pool and playstyle is a bit easier to get the hang of, but I also think that with Spirits, once you know what you're doing, have more mobility and raw damage. It feels like Spirits get progressively better as you become more proficient with Molly, like they have a much higher skill ceiling. 

I will also add that I've found Back On The Job to be every bit as strong as I had hoped and it will be stapled permanently to Molly for me. The knowledge of which Schemes your opponent has taken gives you a huge edge. The active is also surprisingly useful; especially since you already know exactly which of your opponent's Scheme Markers actually matter since they're already revealed. Now Molly has a simple way to remove one at decent range without even needing to flip a card, plus you get to draw a card. Yes, Master AP to remove a Scheme Marker isn't very efficient, and it's not really what you want to do, but if it denies the opponent a VP it's definitely worth it so it's a great Action to add to her toolkit in my opinion.

[Merchant]

I tend to summon draugr if i have 2 at least face cards and 3 targets to plink,I've found it's very likely to 0 action one of them to kill something and pop them all up to 4wds. then if one gets killed the other goes up to 5 and kills something popping up to 6. with archie in the mix you'll end up with 2-3 draugr at full health by turn 3-4.

[mo11usq]

On 24/01/2018 at 1:12 AM, tomhorstmann said:

I would love it if our opponent chose Show of Force and grouped up in the center

I tend to find show of force is (funnily enough) quite a dominant scheme when it synergises with the strategy. If your opponent didn't build for it, it becomes a fairly easy 2 VP even if things take a turn for the worse. With ply, in the extreme case of the enemy spreading out and avoiding you, noone is scoring strat and you get 3VP uncontested, if they half-heart it and split their crew there is a good chance your chunky models can hold out, so on balance it seems better to commit and try to win the zero-sum contest. My opponents seem to like doing it anyway.

The flip side to this being that if you know that is the probable approach your opponent will take, you could 'try to dictate the game the other way' and do breakthrough and surround them. Give your opponent 3VP, but ensure you get 6VP and deny the rest - the onus then falls to them to play your game to get points. This approach involves much more risk, but if your opponent brought something you can't handle head on it might be the best option. Given Molly's strong scrum game, and option to lure in an enemy playing avoidance, it seems like she might as well cover the option of scoring show of force (min 3 upgrades to my mind). Doxys pushing stuff, dying and giving AP back is something I need to remember through the bloodlust.

I definately agree Datsue Ba is not the best pick into Neverborn, which is a shame because either resurr access to AP efficient incidental marker drop is lacking or I'm blanking hard. Maybe I underrate finish the job, I know Molly has the drowned trick (pricy), and as always the emissary has an answer, but its no Phiona Gage or Collodi with a mannequin etc.

On 24/01/2018 at 1:12 AM, tomhorstmann said:

Do you find that you need flanking scheme runners with Molly

Not enough experience to know tbh. Have found activations to be important with her, which means some cheap minions that can usually do a flank role. I also haven't used necropunks much (coming from McMourning I always liked canine remains), times I have they either all leap or all fail. Went for them in this pool to feed philip and for the breakthrough and surround option, anticipating trap and dig being unpleasant against Neverborn. If one is confident in one's centre game its probably worth going with something else and summoning crooligans upfield to survive, ply, then run for the enemy deployment zone.

Enjoyed this, thanks

[McSkip]

So mo11usq, as you opened this fine Molly thread and none for Yan Lo, can we expect some nice youtube Molly batreps 2018?

[mo11usq]

Tried something a bit similar for Yan a while back, didn't really catch on. Expect both when I finally get time to play again, but this thread has been doing a good job of getting me excited for Molly.

[thewrathchilde]

On 12/13/2017 at 4:04 AM, Stewbert said:

Worth putting Spirit Beacon on izamu for some seishin summoning and extra situational blackblood splashing?

I don't play Molly but play Izamu in Seamus and Kirai; I prefer Admiration on him to help speed him up the board. If you have a couple of bad cards you can get a lot of mileage out of pushing him up the board as Datsue Ba is dropping Seishin and Kirai is dropping in Spirits. You have to be careful with placement though so you don't end up blocked by the base of the summoned model on your push. Need to have the summoned model offset to the side enough that when you push at an angle you end up beside it not behind it. 

 

[Daysleeper]

9 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

... You have to be careful with placement though so you don't end up blocked by the base of the summoned model on your push. Need to have the summoned model offset to the side enough that when you push at an angle you end up beside it not behind it. 

 

I thought the push had to be straight to the summoned model. So basicly middle of the base straight to the middle of the other base, no shenanigans.

If we can push besides the summoned model that would be nice. Can anybody confirm that thats possible?

[Adran]

9 hours ago, thewrathchilde said:

I don't play Molly but play Izamu in Seamus and Kirai; I prefer Admiration on him to help speed him up the board. If you have a couple of bad cards you can get a lot of mileage out of pushing him up the board as Datsue Ba is dropping Seishin and Kirai is dropping in Spirits. You have to be careful with placement though so you don't end up blocked by the base of the summoned model on your push. Need to have the summoned model offset to the side enough that when you push at an angle you end up beside it not behind it. 

 

Pushing to base contact has to be done towards the nearest point. You can't push to the side like you suggest. (Pushing towards a model is a direction, and so you have to push directly towards. (page 46 of the Rules manual) )

 

[McSkip]

I think there are 2 different wordings:

 

"push towards" or "push away" means directly, base middle to base middle

"push to base contact" doesn`t have this restriction

but maybe I`m wrong