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What did it just throw


DragonDayDragon

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Can Archie target a friendly model with "What did it just throw"?

The only legal requirements to target a model with an action is range and LoS.

"What did it throw" can target a friendly by these rules alone.

The target enemy clause on the damage, as written, only affects the damage effect.

The corpse effect is separate and resolves after damage resolves, regardless of damaging.

This is my understanding of this as it is written.

 

My understanding is that if archie targets a friendly the damage will fizzle but the corpse will place because nothing in the action states it can only be taken against enemies, just that the effect of damage is target enemy.

 

I would post pics but they are too large and im bad at phones.

Reference: pg 35 small rule book

Reference: archie card

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Target enemy model is a targeting restriction of only enemy models, meaning only enemy models are legal targets of the action. Any action that says "target _____ model" or "target model with ______" is a targeting restriction to only models that fulfill whatever that blank is, it doesn't mean only those models can be affected by the action.

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Expanding back into the second part of this question.

The "Place a Corpse Marker in base contact with the target" line is an effect of the attack succeeding?  Or something that happens regardless.

AKA, if I target an enemy model with this ability and *miss* do I get a corpse marker?

My gut says no because placing the marker is an effect of the attack, if the attack doesn't succeed you don't get it;   I'm getting some push back from others though and it would certainly make this action better.

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The lines after the duel detail is only going to happen if you suceeed, unless it is obvious it is otherwise (Such as This attack recieves :+fate to the attack flip and ignores cover).

The action speaks about a target enemy model, so you have to target an enemy model. 

If you don't succeed then you don't get to place the corpse marker, but you have to discard an upgrade or a corpse marker to take the action. 

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1 hour ago, Clement said:

Expanding back into the second part of this question.

The "Place a Corpse Marker in base contact with the target" line is an effect of the attack succeeding?  Or something that happens regardless.

AKA, if I target an enemy model with this ability and *miss* do I get a corpse marker?

My gut says no because placing the marker is an effect of the attack, if the attack doesn't succeed you don't get it;   I'm getting some push back from others though and it would certainly make this action better.

Unless the effect is something modifying the duel, or it explicitly states that the effect happens even if it fails a la Mei Feng then it does not happen if you don't succeed.

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14 hours ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Rules page citation please in regards to “unless it’s obvious”. The layout doesn’t read the way you state. I can certainly agree that it’s likely, but I didn’t see anything in the rules manual that would support your interpretation. As laid out, each sentence after the first is a separate clause that occurs irrespective of success. I can certainly accept your interpretation is logical, but I do not see any actual rules that support it.

Can you please link the page and passage that I overlooked to support it?

Rules manual page 27 says

5. Determine Success
If the Attacking model’s duel total equals or exceeds the Defending model’s
duel total and any TN associated with the Action (which may include required
suits), then the Attacker has won the duel and the Action succeeds. Apply
results as applicable, which is often the Defender suffering damage or another
ill effect.
If the Defending model’s duel total exceeds the Attacking model’s duel total,
or the Attacker’s final duel total fails to meet the TN of the Action (either by
not meeting the value or the required suits), the Defender has won the duel
and the Action has failed. Apply results if applicable, usually the Defender has
simply avoided any negative results.

 

Is that not enough to say that you need to win the duel to carry on with the effects of the action unless otehrwise stated

Harder to prove is that something in the text of the action can apply before you resolve success, but page 19 has

Breaking the Rules
Models in Malifaux have many unique rules which override the core
rules. This goes for any special rules, even those from terrain or an
Encounter. When a special rule explicitly contradicts these core rules,
follow the special rule rather than the core rule.
For instance, an Attack Action that states it does not require Line of
Sight (pg. 40), is allowed to disobey the normal Line of Sight rules,
and it may therefore choose a target in range, even if it cannot see it.

 

I interpret this to say that if some text of the action box will modify the steps of taking an action before the duel, then I am allowed to follow it. The most obvious ones are those that effect targeting, and those that apply to the duel. I think I would need the text to say that any effects that can be applied after the duel will occur even on failure, as otherwise we have no guidance as to what happens on failure. (The rule of They haven't printed pointless words for no reson)

In this case the dropping of a corpse marker is not something that needs to happen before the duel happens for it to do anything. As such I feel it is somethign that would only happen on a successful action. I can't see any arguement that would allow this to drop a corpse on failing that would prevent "found a bone" from dropping a corpse on failing, and since I'm pretty sure the duel in that action needs to do something, I feel you need to suceed to drop that corpse. 

 

So I stick with the approach its illegal to target a friendly because it specifies target enemy. You may only take the action once per turn, and you need to discard an upgrade or corpse marker to take the action because those words apply to steps before determine success. But damage and dropping a corpse marker require you to succeed on the action. 

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On 11/29/2017 at 9:51 AM, Adran said:

The lines after the duel detail is only going to happen if you suceeed, unless it is obvious it is otherwise (Such as This attack recieves :+fate to the attack flip and ignores cover).

The action speaks about a target enemy model, so you have to target an enemy model. 

If you don't succeed then you don't get to place the corpse marker, but you have to discard an upgrade or a corpse marker to take the action. 

Rules page citation please in regards to “unless it’s obvious”. The layout doesn’t read the way you state. I can certainly agree that it’s likely, but I didn’t see anything in the rules manual that would support your interpretation. As laid out, each sentence after the first is a separate clause that occurs irrespective of success. I can certainly accept your interpretation is logical, but I do not see any actual rules that support it.

Can you please link the page and passage that I overlooked to support it?

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29 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

Rules page citation please in regards to “unless it’s obvious”. The layout doesn’t read the way you state. I can certainly agree that it’s likely, but I didn’t see anything in the rules manual that would support your interpretation. As laid out, each sentence after the first is a separate clause that occurs irrespective of success. I can certainly accept your interpretation is logical, but I do not see any actual rules that support it.

Can you please link the page and passage that I overlooked to support it?

Page 36 on resolving actions:

If the model does not succeed on any required duel, then the Action does not
resolve its effects. However, some models may have Stat Triggers that will be
resolved if the Action fails, so there may still be other results to resolve.

There are some stuff you just obviously need to do at the duel step like naming which minion you are summoning for Nico since it affects his duel requirements. I don't think anyone would argue that Nico can summon the named minion even if he fails the duel to summon and the part where you summon is actually the third sentence of his Reanimator action so should be done regardless of the duel succeeding or not if that is how you do it. Getting a positive to an attack flip would also be pretty useless if you got it after the duel was fully resolved. I think we are stuck with common sense.

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The problem is that the formatting is screwed up and what you regard as common sense another might not.

This is a case in point. Common sense would dictate you get the corpse regardless as the corpse is represented by the upgrade or corpse thrown. To argue otherwise would be to argue it magically destroys itself in the air if it misses but if it hits somehow the fact of hitting causes it to retain cohesion.

However the counterpoint could be made that logically you are looking to get a game effect and that by missing you shouldn’t get it, which is what it was interpreted above.

I don’t think any of the above interpretations close the matter on whether you get a corpse marker regardless of whether you hit or not because neither, or more accurately, both interpretations are valid.

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If it's legal to declare "What did it just throw" specifying a friendly model as a target, then it matters what happens when you do so.

The point if targeting restrictions is that it's not legal to declare such a thing, so nothing happens at all.  The same way that if you try to place a model off of the table, you just don't because that's an invalid thing to do.

And "Target enemy model suffer ..." is a targeting restriction.  

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No one was arguing the enemy/friendly point. The action may only be taken against an enemy, I believe that is beyond dispute.

It does not therefore follow that because of that everything after it is conditional on success unless you are therefore also arguing it that only be used once per turn actually means can only be used “successfully” once per turn, which no one is arguing.

The question was whether you get the corpse marker regardless of success, and there is no definitive wording in the rules that has been referenced as of yet that makes that irrefuatable one way or the other.

If there is please cite it because that’s what I was actually interested in. The above posters seemed to try to answer the question definitively but did not cite rules and it’s been bugging me that I couldn’t find support for their position printed in the rules.

If I missed It please direct me to where since that was my primary interest in this thread.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

Page 36 on resolving actions:

If the model does not succeed on any required duel, then the Action does not
resolve its effects. However, some models may have Stat Triggers that will be
resolved if the Action fails, so there may still be other results to resolve.

 

15 minutes ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

It does not therefore follow that because of that everything after it is conditional on success unless you are therefore also arguing it that only be used once per turn actually means can only be used “successfully” once per turn, which no one is arguing.

The question was whether you get the corpse marker regardless of success, and there is no definitive wording in the rules that has been referenced as of yet that makes that irrefuatable one way or the other.

If there is please cite it because that’s what I was actually interested in. The above posters seemed to try to answer the question definitively but did not cite rules and it’s been bugging me that I couldn’t find support for their position printed in the rules.

If I missed It please direct me to where since that was my primary interest in this thread.

The rules say that you do not resolve the effects of the attack unless you succeeded. How is placing a corpse marker not an effect of the action? "This action may not be taken more than once per turn" isn't an effect since it is worded as a restriction. Discarding the marker/upgrade is a prerequitiste of taking the action since it is worded like it is. It seems pretty crap for the archie player to lose the marker/upgrade but I don't see in what way that is formulated to make it not be an effect of the action succeeding, the other sentences are clearly worded very differently.

I know the following isn't an argument either way but the corpse marker part should really have had something like Mei's kick to make it clear. If that was the intent it should really get faq in my opinion.

Would you say Dreamer gains waking even if he fails with Daydreaming or Manifest nightmare? Because gaining waking from those actions is also in a separate sentence after the effect of the action.

Targeting restrictions aren't clearly defined in the rulebook either as far as I recall. Do you have rulebook support for why you know that the targeting an enemy part of the action isn't just a restriction for the damage but for the action as a whole?

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I disagree. To me it seems you are just picking your preferred interpretation rather than basing it on the rules as written, which was what my interest actually was. I don’t see a strong justification for either interpretation. Yours, or those that want the corpse to drop regardless. That is t to say you might not be correct, I just don’t think you have any more justification than those that say as a separate clause The effect happens regardless.

Regardless I don’t really care what the actual result is and I think if we can agree on anything it’s just another example of a badly written rule.

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1 hour ago, Fetid Strumpet said:

I disagree. To me it seems you are just picking your preferred interpretation rather than basing it on the rules as written, which was what my interest actually was. I don’t see a strong justification for either interpretation. Yours, or those that want the corpse to drop regardless. That is t to say you might not be correct, I just don’t think you have any more justification than those that say as a separate clause The effect happens regardless.

Regardless I don’t really care what the actual result is and I think if we can agree on anything it’s just another example of a badly written rule.

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you are saying. Do you think there are no rules that say the action needs to succeed to do what it says? Which part don't you agree with? 

With regards to common sense, if Archie misses then the flesh could have gone anywhere so why should it be placed at all. But that's fluff, not rules. 

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