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Rathnard

Should the "Gremlin Faction" become the "Bayou Faction"?

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10 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Your master probably.

Who has to declare first?

Declaring factions gives you some idea of what to expect but doesn't allow you to build hard counters unless you guess right.

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5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Who has to declare first?

Factions are declared simultaneously as it already is so no one goes first really.

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5 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Who has to declare first?

Factions are declared simultaneously as it already is so no one goes first really.

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2 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Factions are declared simultaneously as it already is so no one goes first really.

Are you picking your masters before or after seeing the scheme pool?

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59 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

Are you picking your masters before or after seeing the scheme pool?

Not sure, I haven't written a rules protype for it or anything. Declaring your master along with the rest of the crew seems reasonable so you would build your crew to the strat with no information on what you would be facing. You could declare the master after seing the pool but before building as well.

There's also the possibility of having a pool of shared models for the masters who used to share a faction so every ex guildie would always be able to hire the new "lawman" or old "guardsman" characteristic while all arcanists got to hire "union" and ressers "zombies" or whatever you'd like to call it. Then you could declare which shared characteristic you would be hiring from to narrow it down a little. I don't really think that it's necessary to have that sort of info to be honest, most of the time your opponent's faction will still leave you guessing which of three or four skews they'll be playing and since the entire point was to have less overlap there would be even less information gained than there is currently.

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25 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

Not sure, I haven't written a rules protype for it or anything. Declaring your master along with the rest of the crew seems reasonable so you would build your crew to the strat with no information on what you would be facing. You could declare the master after seing the pool but before building as well.

There's also the possibility of having a pool of shared models for the masters who used to share a faction so every ex guildie would always be able to hire the new "lawman" or old "guardsman" characteristic while all arcanists got to hire "union" and ressers "zombies" or whatever you'd like to call it. Then you could declare which shared characteristic you would be hiring from to narrow it down a little. I don't really think that it's necessary to have that sort of info to be honest, most of the time your opponent's faction will still leave you guessing which of three or four skews they'll be playing and since the entire point was to have less overlap there would be even less information gained than there is currently.

By knowing your opponent's faction, the strategy, and the scheme pool it allows you to narrow down the list of things that you might be facing to a manageable level without being so precise as be able to hard counter your opponent unless you do a good just of predicting what they'll bring. If you know which Master someone is bringing you can bring counters without a lot of risk. Anyone that knows that I'm going to be playing Ramos can go all in on anti construct/armor/summoning tech without having to risk that those abilities won't get used.

 

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I would prefer there not being so many hard counters and you could just build your crew blind to the opponent and see what you got when you declared crews.

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@wobbly_goggy We are just going to have to disagree.

While I agree Hamelin was definitely an issue (and one that was discovered during play testing with fixes offered soon after publication) but the core rules, especially after the 1.5 consolidation were much tighter than they are now. And for the record I have played Som'er Teeth against Hamelin, there were methods of killing him available and they didn't require much more than the standard tricks available to the Hog Boss (read as did not require usage of the detestable infinite Skeeter summon exploit). I used my Bacon Bombing Assassination Run to do it.

As for the "Horrific transition" perhaps in your year hiatus you missed the roll out. It was very adversarial to the established player base (and not just the one vocal and notable member) that had built the game and communities. There was a very palpable sense that the new developers didn't care about retaining the old crowd at all. Quite a bit of ego was involved and not just on the side of the "Old Guard." Because of this, many left and have yet to return. This did not need to happen. There are methods of transitioning editions that don't result in large exoduses. It is all in the presentation.

Again we are unlikely to agree but I expect a new edition to be announced within a year or two. Again we don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water but it does need to be refreshed. A system cannot function indefinitely with just maintenance, particularly when new things are continually being bolted on. Eventually things need to be completely overhauled, rebuilt, and replaced. You feel the system is fine as is and that is great, not everyone agrees. You are just as entitled to argue against a new edition as I am for, lets just keep it cordial.

As an aside, if you need some ideas for working your community before becoming a Henchman many of us can offer some good advice. If you want to take a look at the league set I put together or the last custom story encounters I wrote up follow the instructions in my signature. I am more than willing to assist where I can.

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21 hours ago, wobbly_goggy said:

I get that. But look at all the factions... Guild isn't just humans, for example. Lots of robot things. The factions aren't just composed of one type of creature. Yeah they're not gremlin creatures, but I don't think that matters. It's just a name... There's nothing stopping you referring to it as the Bayou faction :)

Actualy Guild is fine in this regard. There's nothing about the faction that that implies humans only. Rather, they're all characters aligned with the Guild organisation as a whole. So robots and other non-humans can justifiably considered "Guild".

The same can be said for Neverborn, Ten Thunders and to a slightly lesser extent, the Ressers and Outcasts.

Arcanists get a bit tricky since alot of the characters are M&SU, not technically Arcanist. However since the M&SU is basically a front for the Arcanist organisation then you can justify them as being Arcanist-aligned... even if the characters don't themselves realise it!

(Mind you, a case can definitely be made to split the M&SU away from the Arcanists into their own faction...especially considering some of the recent developments in the story. But that's for another thread). ;) 

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On 25/11/2017 at 10:15 PM, the tick said:

Mah Tucket - she's like a female greenskin version of Robert Rogers, how about some more Ml/short range Sh focused Gremlin Rangers to go with her? Or a Tucket Raider that's an enforcer

I'd like this to also go with zipp for boosting his pirate crew. :D

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On 11/29/2017 at 12:27 AM, Rathnard said:

Arcanists get a bit tricky since alot of the characters are M&SU, not technically Arcanist. However since the M&SU is basically a front for the Arcanist organisation then you can justify them as being Arcanist-aligned... even if the characters don't themselves realise it!

(Mind you, a case can definitely be made to split the M&SU away from the Arcanists into their own faction...especially considering some of the recent developments in the story. But that's for another thread). ;) 

I wouldn't mind seeing M&SU become their own faction.

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I really honestly believe that there is going to be an edition change as hardly any game in history has ever NOT had an edition change or vast update on rules etc. Particularly with the vast amount of FAQ's, Errata, fluff changes, and balance gripes in the game. I'm more than happy to see it done elegantly, but I fully expect a bit of friction. I've been with DnD for example from 3.5 till now and each time it's taken basically a new group to move forward with it, but I have yet to stop playing it.

I love Malifaux, even if I hardly play it, in part due to the character and charm, and in part because the rules flow so well to me. I know a large portion of the playerbase will have one issue or another with the change when it happens, and that's fine. It's inevitable. It's whether the game comes out better than before or not that matters to most people. I can fully believe there will be Beta's and the like, so it's not like it's all going to happen in a vacuum at Wyrd HQ.

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I think a new edition would be a great opportunity to evolve some of the developing themes within the factions and shore up some of the games mechanics but there is a huge risk in trying to move forward with a game so many people enjoy not only for the gameplay but for the fluff as well.

 

P.S I'd love to see gremlin faction renamed to bayou.

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I'd personally like much more that the likes of Tavish would be thrown into the Outcasts, instead of Gremlins becoming "Bayou". Swampfiends don't really trigger that sort of dissonance with Gremlins to me, so they're fine in a Gremlin faction. As are Pigs. 

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On 11/30/2017 at 2:12 PM, Omenbringer said:

I wouldn't mind seeing M&SU become their own faction.

It'll probably happen - as part of the overhauling/rebooting you mentioned before (and with which I completely agree). 

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I haven't played Malifaux in a while but I remember thinking that identities were starting to fuzz a little around the edges. It wouldn't be the first game where distinctive disadvantages that define a character or faction eventually have answers to fill in the gaps.

Every new wave creates potential balance issues as the model pool grows. The design space shrinks because you're always stuck with all of the previously defined actions and the potential for unintended interactions grow. It must be very difficult to add extra models without eclipsing some of the older ones.

Obviously it wouldn't work for a table top game, but I find it interesting how trading card games rotate sets. There you only have a limited pool to worry about in terms of balance and the design space is continually refreshed. The rotated cards can at least be played in other formats. The alternative, which I really dislike, is nerfing characters that are too popular, the way games like Hearthstone have done in the past to avoid having to rotate them.

If and when Malifaux does define a new version, I will be very interested. I'd much prefer that "Gremlins" keep the name though, especially since they escaped "Outcasts" way back when. ;)

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9 minutes ago, Vidd said:

I haven't played Malifaux in a while but I remember thinking that identities were starting to fuzz a little around the edges.

I missed you!!

Also I agree that rotating sets is interesting but it's a bit more of a big deal to a minis gamer than it is to a card gamer - minis take a lot more time and energy to build and paint than cards take to collect (although sometimes the cards cost more), and to then be unable to use those because they got rotated out can be a bit of an annoyance.

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17 hours ago, Dogmantra said:

I missed you!!

Also I agree that rotating sets is interesting but it's a bit more of a big deal to a minis gamer than it is to a card gamer - minis take a lot more time and energy to build and paint than cards take to collect (although sometimes the cards cost more), and to then be unable to use those because they got rotated out can be a bit of an annoyance.

Thank you!

Yes, I realise that it doesn't really work since miniatures have inherent and sentimental value. Also models in Malifaux tend to be a lot more complicated than any individual card so there's more room for balance tweaks. I also think Gaining Grounds each year actually helps somewhat as models can become more and less relevant based on what schemes/strategies are available.

It's just food for thought since continually expanding the same game has issues.

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