Should the "Gremlin Faction" become the "Bayou Faction"?

[Rathnard]

So a bit of late night thinking when I should be doing other things - do you think the Gremlin faction should be renamed?

The naming of the Gremlins Faction has always been a pet peeve of mine. Purely from a rules perspective it causes a bit of confusion when rules start referring to "friendly Gremlin models" - does it mean models with the Gremlin characteristic, or anyone from the Gremlin Faction? I think the community generally agrees it's always the former, but Gremlins are still the only Faction with this potential issue.  

On top of that, you've got the fact that the "Gremlin" Faction isn't really just Gremlins. You've got the pigs and Zoraida of course, not to mention an increasing number of swampfiends (First Mate, Bayou Gator), humans (McTavish, Bayou Smuggler), and even the occasional curveball (Akaname). So while the Faction might still be primarily filled with Gremlins, to calling it the "Gremlin" Faction no longer represents who they are as a whole. 

As per the title, I think my favourite replacement name right now is to name them after their common home - the Bayou. Right now the Bayou is the only thing that unites every character in the Faction (at least as far as I can recall), so it seems fitting to name the Faction accordingly.

Thoughts?

[Da Git]

That's very political correct of you considering gremlins now have politicians, very fluffy!

But personally, I think it should be call "The-not-a-real", then people can legitimately say, "I'm playing The-not-a-real Faction!"

[Goodtest]

Into The Bayou is one of my favorite RPG book.

It says indirectly that the Bayou is the true neutral in Malifaux. Even Outcast isn't popular in the Bayou. I think this is why Wyrds make an independent faction here.

But humans are not the suitable leading species here. Because humans are quite easily connected with other factions. 

Gremlins are the better choice!

[Omenbringer]

If it means the faction starts getting some better models (like the other factions have for the last few books) or returns to its flavor, then I am all for it. As is the faction is in a serious rut because of complaints about specific abilities that seem over powered until you actually play them (having played gremlins since the start of the game, they are definitely not overpowered or even consistent in what they can do...they are a blast to play however and that is what keeps me playing them).

This isn't solely an issue in Malifaux, nearly every game I have played that builds an identity for a group of models around synergy and high-risk/high-reward falls into it. It is perhaps a bit more noticeable with Gremlins because they also were intended to have a decisive advantage in activations that, unfortunately, with every book gets lower and lower.

Personally I think the entire faction needs a rewrite (truthfully I think it is time for a third edition, especially one that improves the unused elevation rules). I would like to see the faction return to the "character" it started with. And again for the old salts...I am not talking about overpowered...I am talking about making the characteristics actually mean something (like they do in Gremlins). Models that are themed together should function best together and not the same regardless of Master, Henchman, Crew, or theme. Factions should have distinct identities that are only violated rarely, Crews so be even more stringent.

As is, Malifaux isn't like this. The character is gone and the feel of the game has followed it. It used to feel like each game of Malifaux was a part of a larger narrative and also a sequence in an RPG. With the model bloat, symmetric strategies (the worst of it for me), center weighting of the strategies and schemes, and the emphasis on only a handful of "competitive" models (which is funny considering each book is supposed to provide more options and not less), the game has become no different than other offerings. Each game feels the same and is completely disconnected from previous or future ones.

I used to really enjoy playing games. Win or lose it always felt fresh. I have found myself playing less and less of Malifaux and more and more of other games. Though the story encounter mode still provides an enjoyable diversion, it is difficult to find players willing to even try it. Might help if this "official" portion of the game was supportable by the companies in App encounter generator, instead of only the three competitive formats. I have also observed several communities around the country which used to be extremely vibrant, shrink or disappear completely. Recruiting new players has also become more difficult.

While this may appear to be an overly negative view, my goal is to improve the game and expand the player base. As is I don't see current or subsequent books achieving this. Dismiss this if you feel like it, or attack it if you must, these are my observations and no more or less correct than anyone else.

[Rathnard]

Damn @Omenbringer, and here I was just suggesting a name change for the faction!

Personally I agree that the game is due for an edition change, both to re-balance the model range wholesale and clear up parts of the core rules. Naturally, that'd also be the time to think about changing Faction names or messing with other aspects of the game. 

Regarding Factions losing their distinctiveness, I agree that it's been happening with successive waves, but I'm undecided as to how "bad" that really is. Delving into new styles for each faction can keep things interesting for players, for instance the Domadors (sp?) giving limited access to Resser minions for the Guild. Stuff like that makes me want to go back and try Masters/Factions I might have long since lost interest in, and that can only be a good thing IMO. 

That said, I personally like the idea of further restricting crew hiring pools, both to open up design space and to maintain tighter control over a given Faction or Master's playstyle. Splitting all the factions in two was an idea that I've pondered and seen discussed. In the case of Gremlins you divide them into "Bayou" and "Gremlin" Factions, with the model range being in one of the two (or occasionally both, dual-faction style). That would allow stuff like the Gremlins retaining a "random" theme (Bayou Gremlin style) while the Bayou Faction models are more uncontrollable (pig-style). 

The other idea I recently had was to almost do away with Factions altogether, and restrict Masters to hiring models with specific keywords. For instance Ulix would get Pigs while Ophelia would have to stick with LaCroix. Then you'd allow for limited hiring outside that starting pool, Merc-style. So Ophelia could hire a pair of Slop Haulers if she really wanted, possibly with a 1SS merc tax 

Anyway, none of this is up to me, so I guess we'll have to see what happens with a new edition, whenever that new edition comes along.

[dancater]

I totally agree that Bayou makes more sense and is easier to manage than Gremlins.

It is very much similar to the Ressurectionists not being the Undead faction.  Yes most of the Bayou models are Gremlins but not all, there are a fair number which are not and making Gremlin a critical key word would make rules and future faction expansions easier.

As to abandoning factions all together, that I think would be more problematic and complicated and to be honest take something from the game.  Lots of issues, re-writes and potential loss of character in some ways.  Having said that I'd at least bounce the idea of the brain-storm board if I was part of a future Malifaux 3E working party (which we know will, if not is, happen). 

[Rathnard]

14 minutes ago, dancater said:

As to abandoning factions all together, that I think would be more problematic and complicated and to be honest take something from the game.  Lots of issues, re-writes and potential loss of character in some ways.  

Oh yeah, ditching Factions would definitely not be a simple thing. It's more of a mad-cap idea that would require alot of work to iron out any issues. 

[dancater]

Agreed and its fermenting mad-cap ideas which produces the kind of brilliance which is Malifaux in the first place...

"Let's make a skirmish war game where you don't roll dice but flip cards instead and can win the game after your opponent wipes your band completely from the table, sound like a good basis for a plan?"

"Yep, let's do it, sounds perfect, what could go wrong."

"I know right, we should also include Teddy Bear's, a little girl with a sweets basket and what the hell an angry mother goblin type thing with an apron, a spoon and a daughter."

"Sure, still sounds pretty much a sure thing."

"Hey, why don't we include dancing girls and an insane nun?"

"Well now you're just being silly, only if we can have a walking printing press be one of the better models in the game."

[Ludvig]

Removing factions entirely shouldn't be too hard. Just make masters only allowed to hire from specific keywords. It would invalidate a lot of current power builds so it might scare away a lot of players but the technicalities are easy really. 

[Sol_Sorrowsong]

I like the idea of making the faction Bayou instead of Gremlin.  When I first started playing gremlins my masters were Zipp and Zoraida and to be honest, the friendly gremlin models did mess me up a bit because I thought Zoraida was Gremlin even if she wasn't A gremlin.  I know better now, but your point is a good one @Rathnard.  

I've always thought swampfiends fit well with the gremlin faction because of location, but most of the ones I play are neverborn (which makes some sense too as they're monsters, but neverborn seems less swampy).  I'd love for the bayou to add more of that cajun spice that Sammy, Zoraida, the Bokar and I guess Gluttony (but who uses him?) have.  AND there needs to be a swampfiend enforcer for gremlins to go with Bokar while we're at it.  Only one I know of is Adze, which isn't modeled yet and is Neverborn.

[Dogmantra]

While this is probably a good idea to avoid confusion (and is more space efficient than specifying "friendly Gremlin faction" or "friendly Gremlin characteristic"), I am already imagining new variants on the tired "not a real faction" joke, and I just don't know if I could handle a new wave of "hilarious japes".

[Omenbringer]

14 hours ago, Rathnard said:

Damn @Omenbringer, and here I was just suggesting a name change for the faction!

Personally I agree that the game is due for an edition change, both to re-balance the model range wholesale and clear up parts of the core rules. Naturally, that'd also be the time to think about changing Faction names or messing with other aspects of the game. 

Regarding Factions losing their distinctiveness, I agree that it's been happening with successive waves, but I'm undecided as to how "bad" that really is. Delving into new styles for each faction can keep things interesting for players, for instance the Domadors (sp?) giving limited access to Resser minions for the Guild. Stuff like that makes me want to go back and try Masters/Factions I might have long since lost interest in, and that can only be a good thing IMO. 

That said, I personally like the idea of further restricting crew hiring pools, both to open up design space and to maintain tighter control over a given Faction or Master's playstyle. Splitting all the factions in two was an idea that I've pondered and seen discussed. In the case of Gremlins you divide them into "Bayou" and "Gremlin" Factions, with the model range being in one of the two (or occasionally both, dual-faction style). That would allow stuff like the Gremlins retaining a "random" theme (Bayou Gremlin style) while the Bayou Faction models are more uncontrollable (pig-style). 

The other idea I recently had was to almost do away with Factions altogether, and restrict Masters to hiring models with specific keywords. For instance Ulix would get Pigs while Ophelia would have to stick with LaCroix. Then you'd allow for limited hiring outside that starting pool, Merc-style. So Ophelia could hire a pair of Slop Haulers if she really wanted, possibly with a 1SS merc tax 

Anyway, none of this is up to me, so I guess we'll have to see what happens with a new edition, whenever that new edition comes along.

Yeah I tend to be a bit of a curmudgeon, but you include quite a bit of my thoughts in your post. As @Ludvig below states:

8 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Removing factions entirely shouldn't be too hard. Just make masters only allowed to hire from specific keywords. It would invalidate a lot of current power builds so it might scare away a lot of players but the technicalities are easy really. 

I think we need more of this. The characteristic descriptors used to mean a lot more than they do this edition. There is a lot of balance potential through their renewed utilization. Take the Rotten Belles for instance (one of my favorite examples I know). Seamus needs them to function the way they do for his crew to be effective, the other faction Masters do not. Tying one of their required suits for Lure to Seamus (or Sybelle) makes them function as designed within that crew while not providing every Resser Master with an easy button. Without that second suit, Rotten Belles can have a high Ca and not be game breaking any time they appear (it is also a bit disingenuous balance wise to have suit requirements that are always provided for free).

As for scarring off those that favor power builds...well I dont think that is a bad outcome at all.

Power builds do nothing for the over all health of the game. It limits the sales for Wyrd because only the small handful of "competitive" models get sold (a good example of this from a rival company is Privateer Press Warmachine 1st Edition Deliverers. Plenty of those boxes and blisters still languishing on store shelves 15 years after production with no need to recast in plastic.). Competitive players also dont buy as many models, they tend to restrict themselves to only what is proven most efficient in winning (usually proxing and testing the models before committing to a purchase). This is again a revenue loss for Wyrd. Power Builds also tend to scar off the more casual players that might be interested in Malifaux (and I will make the bold assumption that that population is significantly larger than the competitive fields). I am basing this off of the communities I have either built or played in over the years, where one or two competitive players destroyed interest in games they played. These casual players are the ones that keep a game alive long after the competitive players have moved on to other systems. I will also make the bold assertion that competitive environments demonstrate the worst aspects of a game system by highlighting exploits, model imbalances, and removing the "fun" from games. Casual players are hesitant to buy into any system they view as exploitable or flawed and that they think they wont have a near even chance of consistently winning. Players can forgive perceived skill differences, they are extremely harsh on perceived imbalances.

I could make one more controversial statement about upgrades but will save that for a later date and another thread.

As always I appreciate anyone who actually reads these posts and concede that these are solely my opinions and experiences and that yours might be entirely different but just as valid. I do hope that when third edition nears reality that polite discourse remains dominant.

[Ludvig]

@Omenbringer

I largely agree with you but retroactively invalidating player lists will usually lead to a lot of bad blood that I'm not sure the game would recover from. 

I also like the goofy themqtic aspects but for many casual players I think the rules are far to complicated and I think that tournament players that want power builds are a large psrt of the sales for most wargames. I don't think it's a coincidence that the game started growing rapidly when tournaments became more common. My play group has both theme-junkies and competitive players but from my own observations the competitive ones buy a lot more models.

[the tick]

I didn't play Malifaux first edition so my frame of reference is a little more limited than some of you old timers. Lately I've been mulling over the direction I'd like the faction to go. Having said that I can't second guess the game designers because A ) I'm not one and B ) I don't know what conversations go on behind closed doors at Wyrd. I don't really have an opinion on the name change to Bayou. There might be some decent design space there? My main concern with forcing synergies is that some of the wacky variability possible will be limited and although you might SAY you're palying Gremlins...if you're limited in hiring pool based on keywords tied to a master you're really playing the masters as their own faction. Having said that I think the overall theme for the faction has taken a detrimental turn.

The Gremlin masters MOSTLY seem to be patriarchs (i.e. Ulix, Som'er), matriarchs (i.d. Mah Tucket, Ophelia) or gang leaders (i.e. Zipp, Brewmaster). I really like the idea of these Gremlin familiies living in the bayou and having their own character, demeanor and rivalries and I think an increased focus on that aspect might help the faction a lot...but this is just my opinion. I really would like to see some more minions focused on some of these masters. I posted something about this in another thread but here goes again:

Ulix - how about those new trained pigs that were mentioned in Ripples of Fate!? Or maybe some apprentice pig trainers?

Mah Tucket - she's like a female greenskin version of Robert Rogers, how about some more Ml/short range Sh focused Gremlin Rangers to go with her? Or a Tucket Raider that's an enforcer?

Ophelia - Kin minions....so many options! Delinquent Lacroix, Lacroix Duelers, Lacroix Trick Shooters...something like the family minions available to Perdita.

Brewmaster - how about some sort of drunken samurai, ninja archers that have poisoned arrows, etc.

[Omenbringer]

22 hours ago, Ludvig said:

@Omenbringer

I largely agree with you but retroactively invalidating player lists will usually lead to a lot of bad blood that I'm not sure the game would recover from. 

I also like the goofy themqtic aspects but for many casual players I think the rules are far to complicated and I think that tournament players that want power builds are a large psrt of the sales for most wargames. I don't think it's a coincidence that the game started growing rapidly when tournaments became more common. My play group has both theme-junkies and competitive players but from my own observations the competitive ones buy a lot more models.

I am not really talking about invalidating lists, simply improving the theme. Models that are themed together should work best together.  A lot of the early Gremlin Masters held true to this. Ulix needs pigs to function, the Brewmaster needs Wesley and models that can function with Poison, even the versatile Som'er Teeth wants a Skeeter or two and handful of Bayou Gremlins to really shine. Generally this is not true in other factions where you simply hire the most efficient, most competitive handful of models and then add a Master to the list. And while the common adage is that you build your list to the Strategy and Scheme pools in practice this isn't really the case. The most competitive models are that way because they function well regardless of what Strats and Schemes are generated.

Making things function best within their theme doesn't necessarily restrict or even invalidate list building. If Rotten Belles lost one of those automatic suits unless taken with Seamus or Sybelle they would still be useful, just not as reliable outside of their themed grouping. Hiring outside of theme would still be possible (even if done super draconian there would still be mercenary models that could be hired) just slightly less beneficial.

As for the competitive folks purchasing more than casual players...well we will just have to disagree on that. I have already given my thoughts on why this is so in the above posts.

It is interesting to me though, that while Wyrd seems to be trying to embrace the competitive fields, Games Workshop and Privateer Press appear to be trying to appeal to the more casual and thematically minded players. Both of these companies are returning to small-scale games and really emphasizing the theme aspects (especially PP's Company of Iron game). I guess the success of these games will show which group, casual or competitive, are the larger player base.

[Ludvig]

Thematic bonuses like general tactic upgrades would be interesting. If every model has black blood you get rapid growt on more or less your entire list and maybe some other bonus similar to Lilith's new upgrade.

I wouldn't mind at all if Malifaux went back to more fun and casual, competing in these games is weird to me even though I go to tournaments. I don't think shadespire is more goofy, it's just a quicker game but still super finely tuned and with upgrade expandion that I'm pretty sure will prove mandatory to stay competitive. Don't know for sure though.

No idea on warmahordes, will probably never go near that again. Saw the themed lists and played one tournament with them. They weren't fluuffy as much as abusingly powerful and they forced you to spam models that had been considered useless the previous iteration so forced new buys of multiple's that wouldn't even be legal to play in a non-themed list. Or well, the abusingly powerful ones were the only ones I saw. Seemed to me like that game quickly went into more or less fixed lists for each cater because the themes were quite restrictive, leaving little wiggle room with the points left.

Age of Sigmar made large parts of the fanbase jump ship and the ones who stayed wrote an entire new edition of rules closer to the last competitive one from what I gathered. 

I would love for Malifaux to be the fun casual game but I think the rules need to be a bit less dense for that. Getting hammered into the ground because you don't know every opposong card isn't super fun and stsrti g during 1,5 was just brutal because "fun" themes like Pandora existed. It is very possible that most Malifaux players are the goofy ones since I don't think the other companies dared goof entirely so I think Wyrd should carve their niche there!

[SAYNE]

"What if" mad haberdashery approaching;

What if every master acquired two or more limited upgrades (assuming next Ed.) That added "bonus" models? So for example: Somer's Family Tree becomes limited, and allowed him to hire any (or only) models with the Gremlin Characteristic. 

He then might get another upgrade Lord of the Bayou, which gives him piggies, pigapult, maybe a new type of Skeeter and ONLY Bayou Gremlins? 

Of course these are awfully balanced, but it's kind of doubling down on broken promises, with new playstyles and in this case specified models that would make sense? Maybe henchies or things could also have an upgrade which allowed them to bring different models? 

So each upgrade would add a new model or two to the pool of available. Allowing a decent pool, without a ton of overlap?

[wobbly_goggy]

On 11/24/2017 at 6:12 PM, Omenbringer said:

As is, Malifaux isn't like this. The character is gone and the feel of the game has followed it. It used to feel like each game of Malifaux was a part of a larger narrative and also a sequence in an RPG. With the model bloat, symmetric strategies (the worst of it for me), center weighting of the strategies and schemes, and the emphasis on only a handful of "competitive" models (which is funny considering each book is supposed to provide more options and not less), the game has become no different than other offerings. Each game feels the same and is completely disconnected from previous or future ones.

I used to really enjoy playing games. Win or lose it always felt fresh. I have found myself playing less and less of Malifaux and more and more of other games. Though the story encounter mode still provides an enjoyable diversion, it is difficult to find players willing to even try it. Might help if this "official" portion of the game was supportable by the companies in App encounter generator, instead of only the three competitive formats. I have also observed several communities around the country which used to be extremely vibrant, shrink or disappear completely. Recruiting new players has also become more difficult.

While this may appear to be an overly negative view, my goal is to improve the game and expand the player base. As is I don't see current or subsequent books achieving this. Dismiss this if you feel like it, or attack it if you must, these are my observations and no more or less correct than anyone else.

I'm not sure I understand this at all. If Wyrd provides the means to play competitively, you're by no means constricted by this, or forced to use the rules. The original rulebook strats/schemes and story encounters, the extra scenarios in Crossroads and... your imagination! With such things you can re-invigorate the hobby. IMO (and sorry if this sounds rude), the onus is on YOU to some extent. 

Want more fun scenarios or more thematic lists? make them. Play games with restrictions you and your friends have added. MAKE it more enjoyable. And if this isn't happening in your locality, become a Henchman and make it happen! 
With this game the limit is only your imagination and willingness to try new things.

To the best of my knowledge things like Henchman Hardcore and Enforcer Brawl (ie other game formats) came from players, not from Wyrd. If they can do it, you can too. Take this opportunity to mix things up in your area and re-invigorate the hobby. And if you struggle locally, there are always plenty of players worldwide you can play on Vassal!

On topic - Although I kind of see what you're saying, I don't really see the point. Bayou to some extent = gremlins. At least they'll be there having dealings with them. How much time does Zipp spend in the Bayou? If he's off Pirating would he still be included? I get it, I just don't think it's worth the hassle.

(and booo 3rd ed, no thanks!)

[Aztok]

On the original topic, I think that calling the Gremlin Faction the Bayou faction would probably be better, overall. Honestly, I think the BEST solution would be for Gremlins to finally get a story along the lines of "Hey, we're relevant outside the Bayou now, watch out, other six factions!" and utilize all the Gremlins working together. We've been building up to it forever, heck we even got a Gremlin General, but of all the factions the Gremlins have had the slowest growing lore and the least impact on the ongoing storyline by far.

I'd love to see a 3rd edition, since I just started playing, but I feel quite left in the lurch; I'm fighting a new master every game, and they have so many tools that I have a hard time keeping up or trying to figure out what'd be good and what's awful (Bringing brewmaster and all his pushes and conditions against Von Schill and his "Free shots every time you push" junk is a terrible plan, in retrospect). Honestly I'd love to see more models that follow the design of the Swine-Cursed. A minion that has a specific master in mind (Wong, with the Magical status and Blast Resistant) but at the same time can work in a number of different crews (Ulix likes having new pigs to work with, and both Ophelia and Som'er have enough blasts that a Swine-Cursed could provide a little melee punch). Not every crew wants Swine-Cursed, but they're usable by a number of different crews. Compare them to like, Moon Shinobi, who are kind of awful even in the crew they're designed for, and have almost zero synergy with any non-Brewmaster master.

I feel like we need a book sort of like Age of Sigmar's General Handbook 2016/2017, that re-balances things a bit, and adds a little more. Stone rebalancing and some model alterations. We just had new upgrades for each master, but the upgrades are just that: upgrades. You're paying the price to slap on something that should honestly already be on the model to begin with, and even the cool new upgrades for Brewmaster don't make Moon Shinobi or the Whiskey golem playable (The whiskey golem upgrade is so, so close though)

[Omenbringer]

11 hours ago, wobbly_goggy said:

I'm not sure I understand this at all. If Wyrd provides the means to play competitively, you're by no means constricted by this, or forced to use the rules. The original rulebook strats/schemes and story encounters, the extra scenarios in Crossroads and... your imagination! With such things you can re-invigorate the hobby. IMO (and sorry if this sounds rude), the onus is on YOU to some extent. 

Want more fun scenarios or more thematic lists? make them. Play games with restrictions you and your friends have added. MAKE it more enjoyable. And if this isn't happening in your locality, become a Henchman and make it happen! 
With this game the limit is only your imagination and willingness to try new things.

To the best of my knowledge things like Henchman Hardcore and Enforcer Brawl (ie other game formats) came from players, not from Wyrd. If they can do it, you can too. Take this opportunity to mix things up in your area and re-invigorate the hobby. And if you struggle locally, there are always plenty of players worldwide you can play on Vassal!

On topic - Although I kind of see what you're saying, I don't really see the point. Bayou to some extent = gremlins. At least they'll be there having dealings with them. How much time does Zipp spend in the Bayou? If he's off Pirating would he still be included? I get it, I just don't think it's worth the hassle.

(and booo 3rd ed, no thanks!)

The problem is Wyrd is only really supporting the competitive side of things. Look at their "official" app, there is no option to generate story encounters or utilize any of the premade ones. Also how often have you found a player willing to even give them a try? Many players don't want to go thru the hassle when generating the standard encounters or gaining grounds encounters is a button away. Others view it as not the real version of the game because it isn't really supported. Perhaps if Wyrd included the option in their official App it might help things. Also worth mentioning that it was a fight to even get a story encounter system included in the M2e book, those of us that were around can attest to that.

Also, I am a Henchman and have been for longer than most. The events I run are story driven and I have created many custom scenarios. I hade a league rule set long before Wyrd did and freely disseminated among Henchman communities around the world. My communities and others have reacted very well to them. I am not talking out my ass. What I have said is what the communities I have worked or played in have stated and also what I have observed.

Reinvigorating or building a community is not as easy as you make it seem. I have been very successful in doing this but that is not necessarily the norm. Many a Henchman has tried and ultimately given up. It is more difficult when the core rules have obvious flaws and the balance is heavily skewed.

From your booing of a 3rd edition it is unlikely that I can change your mind, however, burying your head in the sand and acting like everything is fine isn't healthy for the game or community. Edition changes don't have to be as horrific as the one from 1st to M2e was (yes I was here for it). Sure you will lose some players, that is inevitable, but if the game improves you will gain far more. Some of the core rules need work to make function or to make function as intended. The entire range needs to be looked at for balance and applicability. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water (as was done with the shift from 1st ed to M2e) but it might be time to at least change the dirty water or perhaps warm it up. With the plethora of models now available and the bloat of the FAQ/ Errata document, a new edition is almost a certainty. The question is not if there will be one but when. Waiting does nothing but weaken existing communities and rebuilding them becomes much more difficult as gamer's have a long memory. Most game systems see an edition change about every five years and M2e is nearing that mark.

[Paul7926]

Interesting read.  I would like to just raise one point that's slightly off topic.  A lot of people use the phrase 'tournament play' to describe a highly competitive environment where the sole aim is to win and players are interested only in the best  performing builds.  Now whilst this is true to a point and, in my opinion, there is nothing wrong with this there are other reasons for attending a tournament.  For some players the experience of going to an event and playing against people other than their normal opponent is reason enough.  

Now don't get me wrong there are two extremes that are often generalised.  Hard core tournament number cruncher and bearded background loving story player.  Most people fall somewhere in the middle rather than at the extreme and even at the extreme there is nothing wrong with playing the game the way you enjoy.  Friction only occurs when you and your opponent are not after the same experience.

The trick for any company is to make something that appeals to different approaches and it become harder to do this the more interacting parts your game contains.

Ok so that started off topic and just got worse.  Sorry.

[wobbly_goggy]

19 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

The problem is Wyrd is only really supporting the competitive side of things. Look at their "official" app, there is no option to generate story encounters or utilize any of the premade ones. Also how often have you found a player willing to even give them a try? Many players don't want to go thru the hassle when generating the standard encounters or gaining grounds encounters is a button away. Others view it as not the real version of the game because it isn't really supported. Perhaps if Wyrd included the option in their official App it might help things. Also worth mentioning that it was a fight to even get a story encounter system included in the M2e book, those of us that were around can attest to that.

The app is new. I expect that if enough people want and ask for story encounters on there, there's a good chance they'll add them. 
How often have I found people willing to give them a try? Very. Every time I've asked. You can even invent a story around an existing scenario, of which there are loads.

19 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Also, I am a Henchman and have been for longer than most. The events I run are story driven and I have created many custom scenarios. I hade a league rule set long before Wyrd did and freely disseminated among Henchman communities around the world. My communities and others have reacted very well to them. I am not talking out my ass. What I have said is what the communities I have worked or played in have stated and also what I have observed.

So what's the issue then? You're adding variety and flavour to the world and making games more enjoyable. 

 

19 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

Reinvigorating or building a community is not as easy as you make it seem. I have been very successful in doing this but that is not necessarily the norm. Many a Henchman has tried and ultimately given up. It is more difficult when the core rules have obvious flaws and the balance is heavily skewed.

I never said it was easy. And I'm sure I'm going to find out. I am not envisaging being a Henchman of a rural, not well connected area, with no dedicated gaming areas beyond the local gaming shop (where I am in competition with other games, notably everyone's favourite grim dark future sci fi game), and only a handful of players across three or more cities.
I would fundamentally disagree on the core rules being flawed. Aside from elevation, the ruleset is still rock solid, and what sets Malifaux (apart from the cool background, minis etc) from other games. 

 

20 hours ago, Omenbringer said:

From your booing of a 3rd edition it is unlikely that I can change your mind, however, burying your head in the sand and acting like everything is fine isn't healthy for the game or community. Edition changes don't have to be as horrific as the one from 1st to M2e was (yes I was here for it). Sure you will lose some players, that is inevitable, but if the game improves you will gain far more. Some of the core rules need work to make function or to make function as intended. The entire range needs to be looked at for balance and applicability. We don't need to throw the baby out with the bath water (as was done with the shift from 1st ed to M2e) but it might be time to at least change the dirty water or perhaps warm it up. With the plethora of models now available and the bloat of the FAQ/ Errata document, a new edition is almost a certainty. The question is not if there will be one but when. Waiting does nothing but weaken existing communities and rebuilding them becomes much more difficult as gamer's have a long memory. Most game systems see an edition change about every five years and M2e is nearing that mark.

M2E 'heavily skewed'? The change from M1 to M2 'horrific'? Maybe I wasn't playing the same M1 as you then, because it was broke as fuck. Did you ever play, for example, Som'er Teeth vs. Hamelin? it was literally impossible to win. I also remember constantly referring to the rulebook because of the multitude of rules I had to find. I stopped playing for a year or so until M2 came out because it just wasn't enjoyable anymore. 
The range is constantly being looked at. New models cover gaps in what's needed for factions, new upgrades, tweaks to the strategies and schemes to make them fairer. It's doing a far better job than any other game system I know of.
'Most game systems'.... so what? It isn't 'other games', and that argument is utter nonsense. Why change the entire system just 'because everyone else is doing it'?
In fact, looking at recent games by a major games company, it looks more like they're following the Wyrd model with upgrades, stat cards etc etc

 

But back on topic...

On 11/24/2017 at 12:56 PM, Rathnard said:

On top of that, you've got the fact that the "Gremlin" Faction isn't really just Gremlins. You've got the pigs and Zoraida of course, not to mention an increasing number of swampfiends (First Mate, Bayou Gator), humans (McTavish, Bayou Smuggler), and even the occasional curveball (Akaname). So while the Faction might still be primarily filled with Gremlins, to calling it the "Gremlin" Faction no longer represents who they are as a whole.

I get that. But look at all the factions... Guild isn't just humans, for example. Lots of robot things. The factions aren't just composed of one type of creature. Yeah they're not gremlin creatures, but I don't think that matters. It's just a name... There's nothing stopping you referring to it as the Bayou faction

 

[WWHSD]

On 11/25/2017 at 3:54 AM, Ludvig said:

Removing factions entirely shouldn't be too hard.

With no factions, what do you declare to your opponent ahead of time?

[Ludvig]

16 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

With no factions, what do you declare to your opponent ahead of time?

Your master probably.

[WWHSD]

On 11/26/2017 at 12:16 PM, Omenbringer said:

I am not really talking about invalidating lists, simply improving the theme. Models that are themed together should work best together.  A lot of the early Gremlin Masters held true to this. Ulix needs pigs to function, the Brewmaster needs Wesley and models that can function with Poison, even the versatile Som'er Teeth wants a Skeeter or two and handful of Bayou Gremlins to really shine. Generally this is not true in other factions where you simply hire the most efficient, most competitive handful of models and then add a Master to the list. And while the common adage is that you build your list to the Strategy and Scheme pools in practice this isn't really the case. The most competitive models are that way because they function well regardless of what Strats and Schemes are generated.

At least with Arcanists it seems like most masters tend to want certain types of models in their crews.

Ramos wants Contructs
Rasputina wants Frozen Heart
Marcus wants Beasts
Colette wants Showgirls.
Mei Feng wants Constructs and Foundry.
Ironsides wants M&SU
Kaeris doesn't really care but likes having some other models that can deal (or benefit from) burning.
Sandeep likes to have Academics.

Arcanist masters may hire the best models available regardless of keyword but they are still probably filling out the crew with a few of their more thematic models. This is true in Gremlins as well. You see Merris and Trixie and a few other models show up in almost every Gremlin master's crews.

I'd assume that it's probably true as well in factions that I'm not as familiar with.