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Schemes & Stones Pre-Jan 2018 Errata (Arcanists)


Khyodee

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Going from the other thread, would you say that Mei needs a buff?

23 hours ago, Goodtest said:

Some suggestion about Colette:

 

Death Defying doesn't need to trigger. Wording of Now You See Me changes "reduce" into "prevent".

Attack Actions are the main problem of Colette. Titania is the better design in this subject.

I think that the burying tricks or enemy control tricks may suitable for Colette.

Such as

:tome:crow Lost In The Mirrors

This trigger can only target a model which has activated this turn.

After damaging, target model must discard two cards or become buried. The next time a scheme marker is placed, unbury the target in base contact with that scheme marker.(If multiple scheme markers are placed at one time, this model may choose which scheme marker to be the target.)

Or

:tome:mask Deep Confusion

After succeeding, target enemy model gains the following condition for the rest of the game. "What is real?: When this model targets an enemy model which is within 2 inch of an enemy scheme marker with any action, this model must pass a TN 13 WP dual or fail the action. This model may end this condition by taking a (1) Interact Action to remove an enemy scheme marker."

Death Defying change - Awesome!  Would bring her back to how she's meant to be!

Lost in the Mirrors - I can't see this being very effective, the target has already activated and all the opponent has to do is drop a scheme marker to unbury it... seems very situational.  + needs suits.  That said, it's a great idea and very thematic.

Deep Confusion - This one seems really good and thematic, like it a lot.

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The Captain's fluff mentions an affinity for Wind Gamin but there's nothing on his card that really reflects that. He also does not have a zero action.

What if he got a zero action (either on his card or on Patron's Blessing) that was something like this:

"This model and all friendly Wind Gamin models add a :mask to all duel totals. This effect lasts until this model’s next activation or when this model leaves play"

This gives the already expensive Captain a few things.

1. Additional survivability by giving him a built in suit for his Df trigger.

2. Some additional control by giving his Relic Hammer a built in push trigger.

3. With him around Wind Gamin can leap on a 6+ of any suit.

It seems like that would help The Captain be closer to what a 12SS Henchman should be. It helps him stay on the board a bit longer and emphasizes the control and support aspects that typically get him picked over a hard hitting Henchman like Joss.

 

 

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  • 3 weeks later...

In my opinion Wyrd should pay attention to
Kaeris - her flaming mechanic on FLaming Halo is kinda *heavy* to use and gives little profit in average. Buffing it via upgrades kinda waste of SS. 

Sandeep - compared to other masters he looks much stronger in any direction. Slight nerf balance him

Captain - compared to other 10 SS Henchman models look very vulnerable . He need either 0AP to be more aggressive or some defensive tool.

Oxfordian Mage upgrade Temporary shielding should be restricted to Rare 3, otherwise i can take like 100500 of those and try to kill me...

Essence of Power - in my opinion one of the most useless totems in game.

December of Acolyte - looks pretty broken compared to other 7 SS models.  Unless u play Gunsmith with Fire Gamin, Acolyte is must have model.

Electic Creation - model that is made for Ramos ? Its like a junk to others.... Either make it playable with others or wipe it out.

Steam Arachind - Its DF should be 6 like little guy has, or both should have DF 5. Its kinda weird when 3 become stronger and loose DF stat point.

Mechanical Rider - yes, he is good in average scenario, but instead of buffing or nerfing him it might be better to make him one way oriented ? Now he has weak summon, weak attack, and useless charge since its mechanic is about PUSH-SUMMON-SHOOT.

Imbued Engines upgrade - is one of the most popular upgrades and gives a lot for its price. I think it should be nerfed to - Whenever this model is killed draw 4 cards. -  OR -  When this model is killed or sacrificed draw 3 cards.

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14 minutes ago, Rillan said:

Oxfordian Mage upgrade Temporary shielding should be restricted to Rare 3, otherwise i can take like 100500 of those and try to kill me...

Ox mages are already Rare 3, and a model can't have more than 1 of the same upgrade, so you're good there.

16 minutes ago, Rillan said:

Steam Arachind - Its DF should be 6 like little guy has, or both should have DF 5. Its kinda weird when 3 become stronger and loose DF stat point.

The idea is probably that there's 3 of them, so they're easier to hit. Also, lose not loose (pet peeve of mine)

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3 hours ago, Rillan said:

In my opinion Wyrd should pay attention to
Kaeris - her flaming mechanic on FLaming Halo is kinda *heavy* to use and gives little profit in average. Buffing it via upgrades kinda waste of SS. 

Sandeep - compared to other masters he looks much stronger in any direction. Slight nerf balance him

Captain - compared to other 10 SS Henchman models look very vulnerable . He need either 0AP to be more aggressive or some defensive tool.

Oxfordian Mage upgrade Temporary shielding should be restricted to Rare 3, otherwise i can take like 100500 of those and try to kill me...

Essence of Power - in my opinion one of the most useless totems in game.

December of Acolyte - looks pretty broken compared to other 7 SS models.  Unless u play Gunsmith with Fire Gamin, Acolyte is must have model.

Electic Creation - model that is made for Ramos ? Its like a junk to others.... Either make it playable with others or wipe it out.

Steam Arachind - Its DF should be 6 like little guy has, or both should have DF 5. Its kinda weird when 3 become stronger and loose DF stat point.

Mechanical Rider - yes, he is good in average scenario, but instead of buffing or nerfing him it might be better to make him one way oriented ? Now he has weak summon, weak attack, and useless charge since its mechanic is about PUSH-SUMMON-SHOOT.

Imbued Engines upgrade - is one of the most popular upgrades and gives a lot for its price. I think it should be nerfed to - Whenever this model is killed draw 4 cards. -  OR -  When this model is killed or sacrificed draw 3 cards.

I don't think Sandeep is a problem than needs additional nerfing to balance. Arcanists have had problems with masters either being a bit on the weak side (Kaeris, Ironsides) or too one-dimensional (Rasputina, Ramos, Colette)  some of the book 5 upgrades should make a dent, GG18 might help a bit, and a couple of upwards balance buffs to other Arcanist masters should level things out.

December Acolytes are a nice model but I don't see how they are broken at 7 points. If Acolytes were more expensive I don't think you see more people taking Gunsmiths, you'd just see less people taking Acolytes outside of Rasputina crews. If you want to see more Gunsmiths give them a slight buff or drop their cost. At least to me they seem to compete with Mages for a spot in crews as least as much as they do Acolytes.

The only change I'd like to see made to the Electric Creation is to drop a :tome from the TN that Ramos needs to summon one.

Is Imbued Energies any more popular that Debt to the Guild or Oathkeeper?  It seems like most complaints about Imbued Energies come from it's use on Miranda. To me it seems like you'd be better off hitting the root of the problem. Give people a reason to hire a Cerberus (and to some extent a Blessed) instead of just hiring Miranda and transforming into one, drawing three cards, and getting an extra activation for the same cost. Maybe that takes the form of a buff (and cost increase) to Miranda to make shape changing just a thing she does instead of it being her main thing. 
 

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9 hours ago, BFOmega said:

Ox mages are already Rare 3, and a model can't have more than 1 of the same upgrade, so you're good there.

The idea is probably that there's 3 of them, so they're easier to hit. Also, lose not loose (pet peeve of mine)

They arent. And those from boxes me and my friends have are not restricted in any way....
 

 

5 hours ago, WWHSD said:

December Acolytes are a nice model but I don't see how they are broken at 7 points.

Compared with Gunsmith who is also 7 points, the last one needs someone with burning ability to make 100% potential fire damage release. While Acolyte with its 2 shots crushes opponent hand, and makes slow his models without any other model help.  In 1 v 1 scenarion, Gunsmith is way weaker, or Acolyte is way stronger.

 

5 hours ago, WWHSD said:

I don't think Sandeep is a problem than needs additional nerfing to balance

He is not a problem. Its more like either buff other masters, either neft Sandeep. Cause hi looks stronger compared to others...

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1 hour ago, Rillan said:

They arent. And those from boxes me and my friends have are not restricted in any way....
 

 

Compared with Gunsmith who is also 7 points, the last one needs someone with burning ability to make 100% potential fire damage release. While Acolyte with its 2 shots crushes opponent hand, and makes slow his models without any other model help.  In 1 v 1 scenarion, Gunsmith is way weaker, or Acolyte is way stronger.

 

He is not a problem. Its more like either buff other masters, either neft Sandeep. Cause hi looks stronger compared to others...

Oxfordian Mages are Rare 3. That's what my book says, that's what my copy of the cards say and that's what the app says. If your cards say differently then they must be a misprint.

So a crew is limited to 3 Oxfordian Mages and each Mage can only be hired with a single copy of any upgrade:
M2E Big Core, pg. 72: "A model may not purchase more than one Upgrade with the same name."

That comparison of the Gunsmith and the Acolyte doesn't mean that there is a problem with the Acolyte. You can't compare models in a 1 on 1 situation when determining how much they are worth. The Acolyte has a niche. There isn't really anything else that Arcanists have access to that does what the Acolyte does. The Gunmiths aren't so lucky. They do damage. That's about it. They've got some tricks that let them push through damage in different ways but ultimately that's all they bring to a crew. There's a lot of other models to choose from that can do damage. A pair of Gunsmiths and a soulstone probably don't compare favorably to a trio of Oxfordian Mages in most people's opinions either.  In general, I think that 7 point minions aren't in a great spot.

If Sandeep isn't a problem, why ask for nerfs to him? 

 

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In my opinion, sometimes people doesn't understand how to nerf and how miniatures are OP, for the actions taking in a small grop of players can't sentence nothing, if you travel can see other meta, other play styles and players that can be better.

I love competition, and in all that I play, I travel searching tournaments arround my country and the world.

In Magic The Gatering I was travel a lot, for me it's really fun go with my friends and try to win one tournament, and the key to nerf it's pick all month tournaments for example, and see the crews, with this information

For example if all Arcanist play in all her crews Acolytes it's clear the comunity must nerf that, but no for a small portion of player in a little village, and of course only count the top 5 crews in the tournaments, no matters if the worst players allways play 3 of them, because he loss all time.

I'm thinking to write an article abaut that, competitive, tournaments, pairins and nerf/buffs. Quick question, you enjoy that if I write that? it's hard for me because, and sorry for that my english is a little bad, and I want t do my best.

 

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7 minutes ago, Fictor said:

For example if all Arcanist play in all her crews Acolytes it's clear the comunity must nerf that, but no for a small portion of player in a little village, and of course only count the top 5 crews in the tournaments, no matters if the worst players allways play 3 of them, because he loss all time.

 

I’m not sure that I buy that a model needs to be nerfed regardless of its power level if it is appearing in the crew of most of the top finishing players. It could be that whatever that model does is something that successful players who can read the meta decide they want to have in their crews. For example, if top players felt they needed condition removal in their crews as an answer for something they expect to be dealing with frequently it wouldn’t make sense to nerf Arcane Effigy or Johan for being too popular.

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If a miniature win all tournaments, with all masters, that must be consider.

Allways say the Nurse example but, IMO is the most used miniature, in each Ress crew, in Zoraida, in Jack Daw, in all factions and all masters in each tournament I go I see that, ok, except Tara Alpha because it's true Nurse is slow miniature, that's not casual, people go to a tournament to try to win.

In the other hand, on the last tournament only 1 Arcanist play Acolytes on 1 round, and like you said,if their cost up to 8ss, we delete him for all tables and the game.

That's, of course, my humble opinion.

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13 hours ago, Rillan said:

In my opinion Wyrd should pay attention to

Oxfordian Mage upgrade Temporary shielding should be restricted to Rare 3, otherwise i can take like 100500 of those and try to kill me...

EDecember of Acolyte - looks pretty broken compared to other 7 SS models.  Unless u play Gunsmith with Fire Gamin, Acolyte is must have model.

Electic Creation - model that is made for Ramos ? Its like a junk to others.... Either make it playable with others or wipe it out.

Steam Arachind - Its DF should be 6 like little guy has, or both should have DF 5. Its kinda weird when 3 become stronger and loose DF stat point.

Mechanical Rider - yes, he is good in average scenario, but instead of buffing or nerfing him it might be better to make him one way oriented ? Now he has weak summon, weak attack, and useless charge since its mechanic is about PUSH-SUMMON-SHOOT.

Imbued Engines upgrade - is one of the most popular upgrades and gives a lot for its price. I think it should be nerfed to - Whenever this model is killed draw 4 cards. -  OR -  When this model is killed or sacrificed draw 3 cards.

Don't fully agree, I think you are missing some important parts in soem complaints

Electrical creation is largely there as a summons for Ramos from his upgrade. But by giving it a hire cost it can be used by other masters if you want or even  start ont he table with Ramos. 

Flaming halo is a set up action. One I rarely use, but ackniowledge its use when I need it. its an effective minimum 2 damage. 

Mech is still probably the most popular rider. But I'm not sure its worth giving him a re-write. 

Acolyte is strong but I certainly don't see them in every list. They probably make more lists than a lot of 7 ss models, but they aren't everywhere and they aren't always the best 7 ss model to hire. 

Imbued energies is probably stronger than Oathkeeper, but not by much (oathkeeper went down in "value" when the GG started beign used as you need more control over where your markers are placed now.). I would not be upset if they stopped Myranda using it as a card draw engine, so the killed option you have listed.

I agree with the points others have made about the swarm and the mage upgrade (which by not having that restriction does allow them to make an oxfordian mage henhcman or enforcer in the future if they so desire)

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6 hours ago, Fictor said:

If a miniature win all tournaments, with all masters, that must be consider.

Allways say the Nurse example but, IMO is the most used miniature, in each Ress crew, in Zoraida, in Jack Daw, in all factions and all masters in each tournament I go I see that, ok, except Tara Alpha because it's true Nurse is slow miniature, that's not casual, people go to a tournament to try to win.

In the other hand, on the last tournament only 1 Arcanist play Acolytes on 1 round, and like you said,if their cost up to 8ss, we delete him for all tables and the game.

That's, of course, my humble opinion.

If a model is appearing in  most  crews that can hire them then it may indicate that there is a problem and a closer look should be taken. It may indicate that there is a problem but I don't think that is enough to justify nerfing a model by itself. 

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6 hours ago, Adran said:

Mech is still probably the most popular rider. But I'm not sure its worth giving him a re-write. 

Probably. But as for me its way better to take few cheaper models than rider. Before nerf, Rider was good for its price, but now i dont see it in my roster. Too expensive for being average in everything. I would really be happy if Arcanists had Pale Rider or atleast Hooded or Death Rider as they are stronger in case of damage and they abilities are more interesting for Arcanists than Mech.

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9 hours ago, WWHSD said:

You can't compare models in a 1 on 1 situation when determining how much they are worth.

I can if i see that Acolyte doesn't need any help. While Gunsmith looses half its potential once your opponent kills your Fire Gamin or other model that gives burning condition.

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19 minutes ago, Rillan said:

I can if i see that Acolyte doesn't need any help. While Gunsmith looses half its potential once your opponent kills your Fire Gamin or other model that gives burning condition.

Gunsmiths have a build in way to gain fast and can ignore Armor, HtW, and HtK, or soulstone use, and can give themselves the suit needed for that, and they're faster and tankier than Acolytes.

I agree that Acolytes are better, and I would probably remove the suit from their attack so they don't automatically get the discard, or make the damage track 2/4/5, but I don't think they need much.

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48 minutes ago, Rillan said:

I can if i see that Acolyte doesn't need any help. While Gunsmith looses half its potential once your opponent kills your Fire Gamin or other model that gives burning condition.

Sure, it’s easy to compare models 1 on 1 but there’s little value in doing so. Models are going to be part of a crew so their capabilities need to be assesed as being part if a crew.

How’s losing a fire gamin any different than an enemy engaging an Acolyte at two inches? The Acolyte is stuck using his melee 5 attack with a 1 inch range while the Gunsmith is making the same attack that you brought him for. 

The Gunsmith isn’t always going to be using his zero action for + flips on burning targets either. Discarding to get suits added to duels totals is nice on a model with his choice of triggers on attack and defense.

I don’t think that the Acolyte and Gunsmith actually compete for slots in crews all that much. Generally, if someone is bringing an Acolyte it’s for the discard and slow, frozen heart, or the ability to deploy forward. The ranged damage is nice but it’s probably not the primary reason they are bringing the model. If the Acolyte isn’t a choice, the Gunsmith isn’t a model that can fill in.

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2 minutes ago, WWHSD said:

engaging an Acolyte at two inches?

U must be some kind of person... Different players different strategies... I never put Acolyte close enough so enemy can easy engage it. Acolytes work is not granting slow... Slow is good big plus, but making opponent discarding cards is huge. 2 Acolytes = 4 shots = 4 possible card discards + slow... Or your opponent use his cards to cheat and prevent discard. No matter what happens u are in an advantage while Acolyte is alive and able to shoot. In same time Gunsmith is not so scary so opponent usually just ignores few damage points cause nothing more will happen.

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1 hour ago, Rillan said:

U must be some kind of person... Different players different strategies... I never put Acolyte close enough so enemy can easy engage it. Acolytes work is not granting slow... Slow is good big plus, but making opponent discarding cards is huge. 2 Acolytes = 4 shots = 4 possible card discards + slow... Or your opponent use his cards to cheat and prevent discard. No matter what happens u are in an advantage while Acolyte is alive and able to shoot. In same time Gunsmith is not so scary so opponent usually just ignores few damage points cause nothing more will happen.

The point I was trying to make is that if an Acolyte gets engaged it's effectiveness has been reduced just like the effectiveness of a Gunsmith is reduced if all of the sources of burning in his crew are removed. 

Your response about discards just reinforces my point about Acolytes not pushing out Gunsmiths. You aren't bringing them for damage at a 12 inch range, you are bringing them for the discard effect. If the price was raised to 9 points or the slow was removed from the ranged attack that's not going to cause you to put a Gunsmith in your crew. Arcanists don't really have anything that fills the same role.  I'm sure that there's someone out there that includes Acolytes because they are looking for ranged damage but they are probably just as likely to use a Trapper or an Oxfordian Mage in that spot if the Acolyte got nerfed. 

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On 12/15/2017 at 7:20 PM, WWHSD said:

Your response about discards just reinforces my point about Acolytes not pushing out Gunsmiths. You aren't bringing them for damage at a 12 inch range, you are bringing them for the discard effect. If the price was raised to 9 points or the slow was removed from the ranged attack that's not going to cause you to put a Gunsmith in your crew. Arcanists don't really have anything that fills the same role.  I'm sure that there's someone out there that includes Acolytes because they are looking for ranged damage but they are probably just as likely to use a Trapper or an Oxfordian Mage in that spot if the Acolyte got nerfed. 

Somewhat tellingly, while you may be right that Acolytes aren't taken for ranged damage, they are good at it. Their damage track is good for a seven soulstone minion, especially when you consider the potential to gain additional damage from the synergies with Ice gamin, and even at close range they still have good medium and severe damage plus a zero action that allows both them and other models nearby to ignore armour. So you have a model which has enough abilities to be worth hiring before considering it's damage potential, that is also solid as a damage dealer.

That, in itself, feels like a sign of a seriously overpowered model, and they don't have to choose between the different things they can do. Instead, they can do damage, *and* inflict slow, *and* force discards, all in the *same 1AP shot*, and without even needing a specific suit and with a high degree of accuracy. They are, in short, doing far too much for far too little resources, even before taking into account their powerful synergies with a frozen heart crew

 

However, I'd also say you're probably right that even if Acolytes were balanced, Gunsmith's still wouldn't a be a good model. In comparison to the acolytes ability to do a lot of things at once for few resources, and be good at them, the Gunsmith is very focussed on one thing-damage, and at it's best expends a lot of resources to be mediocre at it. Nothing on their card really changes the blunt fact that they are 7SS specialist damage dealer with a bad damage track and no way to get positives. You can't rely on doing more than that minimum of 2 per hit, and even if you do get lucky and hit a severe, you're only going up to 4. Yes, they have a big toolbox of triggers, but those are *all* damage. Two are situational abilities to ignore damage reduction/prevention of limited use at 2 damage per shot, another gives them decent moderate and severe, but still leaves them at minimum 2. The fourth is also situational. All require a specific suit, so even if you get a target exceptionally vulnerable to one of them, you still need the right cards. They can gain fast, but again only with a specific suit and only if they get attacked, and to gain their double plus flips you need to set a target on fire, remembering that burning is a temporary condition, *and* have a spare card to discard. An awful lot of things need to align for them to be at their best, and even with everything aligned, they still aren't a *great* damage dealer. 

Myself, I'd like to see both these models rebalanced. Acolytes need to be more restricted in how much they can do with a single shot, and gunsmiths simply need a better basic damage track to function as a damage dealer. It would also be nice to see a change to the 'Smoldering heart' ability to either be 'after resolving' or so every model that has it had the suit built in. This feels like it was supposed to be a significant ability for Kaeris, but as things are with needing a specific suit *and* the 'after succeeding' condition, it's occasionally useful on Kaeris with her high defence, but on the low/average defence minions simply doesn't come up.

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15 minutes ago, Dereikt said:

Somewhat tellingly, while you may be right that Acolytes aren't taken for ranged damage, they are good at it. Their damage track is good for a seven soulstone minion, especially when you consider the potential to gain additional damage from the synergies with Ice gamin, and even at close range they still have good medium and severe damage plus a zero action that allows both them and other models nearby to ignore armour. So you have a model which has enough abilities to be worth hiring before considering it's damage potential, that is also solid as a damage dealer.

Just a FYI, the ignore armor and HtW ability is a 1 AP action and only occurs within a 6 inch aura of them. 

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15 minutes ago, Dereikt said:

Somewhat tellingly, while you may be right that Acolytes aren't taken for ranged damage, they are good at it. Their damage track is good for a seven soulstone minion, especially when you consider the potential to gain additional damage from the synergies with Ice gamin, and even at close range they still have good medium and severe damage plus a zero action that allows both them and other models nearby to ignore armour. So you have a model which has enough abilities to be worth hiring before considering it's damage potential, that is also solid as a damage dealer.

That, in itself, feels like a sign of a seriously overpowered model, and they don't have to choose between the different things they can do. Instead, they can do damage, *and* inflict slow, *and* force discards, all in the *same 1AP shot*, and without even needing a specific suit and with a high degree of accuracy. They are, in short, doing far too much for far too little resources, even before taking into account their powerful synergies with a frozen heart crew

 

However, I'd also say you're probably right that even if Acolytes were balanced, Gunsmith's still wouldn't a be a good model. In comparison to the acolytes ability to do a lot of things at once for few resources, and be good at them, the Gunsmith is very focussed on one thing-damage, and at it's best expends a lot of resources to be mediocre at it. Nothing on their card really changes the blunt fact that they are 7SS specialist damage dealer with a bad damage track and no way to get positives. You can't rely on doing more than that minimum of 2 per hit, and even if you do get lucky and hit a severe, you're only going up to 4. Yes, they have a big toolbox of triggers, but those are *all* damage. Two are situational abilities to ignore damage reduction/prevention of limited use at 2 damage per shot, another gives them decent moderate and severe, but still leaves them at minimum 2. The fourth is also situational. All require a specific suit, so even if you get a target exceptionally vulnerable to one of them, you still need the right cards. They can gain fast, but again only with a specific suit and only if they get attacked, and to gain their double plus flips you need to set a target on fire, remembering that burning is a temporary condition, *and* have a spare card to discard. An awful lot of things need to align for them to be at their best, and even with everything aligned, they still aren't a *great* damage dealer. 

Myself, I'd like to see both these models rebalanced. Acolytes need to be more restricted in how much they can do with a single shot, and gunsmiths simply need a better basic damage track to function as a damage dealer. It would also be nice to see a change to the 'Smoldering heart' ability to either be 'after resolving' or so every model that has it had the suit built in. This feels like it was supposed to be a significant ability for Kaeris, but as things are with needing a specific suit *and* the 'after succeeding' condition, it's occasionally useful on Kaeris with her high defence, but on the low/average defence minions simply doesn't come up.

 

What's the baseline for what a 7 soulstone minion's power level and why not set it at the Acolyte? Acolytes seem like a step up for a point from a singe 6 point Oxfordian Mage but is a pair of Acolytes and a soul stone any more powerful than a trio of Mages? There's a whole raft of 6 point models that dropped with book 5 that seem strong. Compared to those models will an Acolyte seem to strong at 7?

Acolytes don't have a particularly long range and don't have a lot going for them once they start getting attacked or are engaged. I think the biggest thing that makes them seem overpowered is that it is easy to get your 7 points of of value out of them before losing them. I think you do need to be able to get a quick return on them since they aren't a model that gets to stick around very long unless your opponent chooses to ignore them.  A model that takes longer to earn back its value is  more likely to bump into situations where you can't apply them effectively every round and they don't get as much bonus value when they stick around longer than usual. 

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On 18/11/2017 at 4:05 PM, dancater said:

Kaeris again is a master who is a little flawed, she does nice things but not quite enough.  Not great Burning synergy in the faction really, its there but sub-optimal.  Fire Gamin struggle, they are not the weakest models but one issue with the Kaeris crew is is damage output is poor and it does not really scheme or move fast and the Fire Gamin are emblematic of this they are a minion with no real scheme-y boost, average speed and poor damage.  Many of Arcanist's burning models (Fire Gamin, Rail Golem, Union Miner, Gunsmith) are a little under-powered.   

Very well surmised. Kaeris has been knocked down several notches with recent releases and she wasn't in a great place to start with anyway. The biggest niche she has (which is still a small niche, make no mistake) of using Wings of Fire with cheap models for mass delivery of Scheme Markers. To be fair, this is actually slightly more viable now that Colette has also been gradually weakened to the point of being awful but it's still a tiny niche. Outside of that Kaeris is outshone by Sandeep alone almost categorically let alone the other 5 masters she must compete with.

Flaming Halo and Immolation are interestingly designed but you always have to pick damage or burning/utility, and usually be underwhelmed with whatever choice you make (think about the filth that other masters bring - compare the utility on her attacks to Collodi). I wonder if she would be better served by a single simple attack Action that did a few points of damage, added Burning +1, and then had some triggers to exploit or spread further Burning.

I haven't used her new Limited upgrade enough yet to really know if it really makes her a force to be reckoned with, again it feels like she is forced to use multiple actions achieving what other masters can do in only 1 action, or even in someone else's action if we're still talking about Sandeep.

 

I also think you're right that it's not just her but also her 'thematic models' that generally are a bit lacklustre but I don't think Fire Gamin are true of that label.

In fact I don't think Fire Gamin 'struggle' as you put it at all. Their damage is exceptionally good for their price of 4ss. They don't share Kaeris' issues - in fact if she was more like Fire Gamin she'd be more well received - in the sense that if her attacks or abilities offered regular damage and Burning/utility at the same time, rather than one or the other. Again, my point about having to always choose between Flaming Halo and Immolation comes to mind.

Just my observations. I think you're spot on with so many of your notes.

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29 minutes ago, hydranixx said:

I also think you're right that it's not just her but also her 'thematic models' that generally are a bit lacklustre but I don't think Fire Gamin are true of that label.

In fact I don't think Fire Gamin 'struggle' as you put it at all. Their damage is exceptionally good for their price of 4ss. They don't share Kaeris' issues - in fact if she was more like Fire Gamin she'd be more well received - in the sense that if her attacks or abilities offered regular damage and Burning/utility at the same time, rather than one or the other. Again, my point about having to always choose between Flaming Halo and Immolation comes to mind.

Just my observations. I think you're spot on with so many of your notes.

Thank you.

Regards Fire Gamin, I guess a big part is the Burning mechanic, with it they do solid damage but if the condition is removed they are probably a bit low, melee in particular 1/2/3.  Also Burning is not as useful, even if not removed before turn end.  So I rate Fire Gamin damage as slightly below what I'd like and this is highlighted by the fact that Kaeris struggles with damage and needs a above average hitter, Fire Gamin have not in my experience made this.

The are OK speed wise but nothing special and 4WDs Armor 1 Df 4 is again OK.  I do however fully concede the point that they are a really good functional little 4SS model - they can bring meaningful damage, are fast enough to scheme if needed and have good enough defensive stats you'd expect them to survive a few AP from anything but a massive dedicated beater, plus they have a little death bite if enemies are close when the die.  So yep fair enough I perhaps rated them harshly.  Just the big problem is Kaeris crew needs to have something special and Fire Gamin for me are not special enough.  But I can see them in Ramos crews as constructs, Mei crews as the same and Sandeep as a summon, in addition they do provide some useful Burning (obviously for Kaeris, but still not enough) which can boost other Arcanist models - its not much but I have to admit a Ironsides Fire Gamin, Gunsmith crew is kinda fun if not perhaps the "best" competitive build.

Actually the Gamin are all good 4SS purchases with of course the exception of the Poison Gamin which is a bad 5SS purchase which would be OK at 4SS - poor weird scorpion goblin that it is.  One of the reasons that Sandeep is a solid master is his summons are mostly flexible and useful.

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Burning is effective dmg. If I hit you for burning +2 and do 1 dmg, at the end of the turn I've effectively done 3 dmg to you. Yes it's not as good as dmg then and there, but it can't be treated as if it isn't doing the dmg it does.

Having looked at the game since the redesign I think they just made a huge mistake with burning specifically because of that dichotomy. 

Personally, I think ultimately what they should have done is just treated it mechanically exactly the same as poison. The current issues are that you can't treat it as if it isn't doing the actual dmg it does, but that dmg has a slight delay, which I would argue currently isn't possible to properly cost.

A further issue is timing. Burning all falls off at the end of a turn. So to utilize all the abilities that require burning to be on something requires either auras or abilities that keep burning on models which have it (which requires the ability to very expensive) or specific activation timing to get the burning on, and then to utilize it. That's a lot of hoops to jump through, end even if the effect is worth it competitive crews are all built to maximize the reduction of variance. And the more hoops you have to jump through to get any specific effect, the more chance, fate, or bad plays could screw You up.

Poison on the other hand has worked much better as a mechanic. It does extra dmg sure but in a very slow way unless you are using specific auras, and so the tiny bit of extra dmg can be more easily added into a dmg track without always having to account for the dmg poison will do. But the big thing is the condition actually lasts, so you can set things up in one turn, and take advantage of them later, because poison only ticks down once each turn.

I think Kaeris' ultimate problem isn't her design, other than she was thematically built to work on a flawed mechanic.

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