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Von Schill


noahsheck

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3 minutes ago, gribble said:

Maybe it's just because I'm a newbie, largely playing against other newbies... but I've loved this upgrade. Being able to swap out one of VS's AP and give it to e.g. Lazarus or the Strongarm Suit has seemed to be incredibly powerful. Especially in the first turn of the game when I can walk and give it to both of them for a future turn. Walk + Rapid Fire on Lazarus or Walk + Charge on SS has been amazing.

Sure but if you do that, Von Schill has 1 AP left to walk 5"? Seems weak when Hamelin could just obey the two of them and doesn't care about being on the backline. 

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46 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Sure but if you do that, Von Schill has 1 AP left to walk 5"? Seems weak when Hamelin could just obey the two of them and doesn't care about being on the backline. 

Fair enough. I haven't yet played Hamelin, so can't comment on that. I suppose Hamelin has the downside of not being able to act as a second SS when needed. :)

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2 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

After the first game I just can't see a reason for the Oathkeeper one. There's just not very many situations where effectively changing out a master ap for a minion/enforcer AP is worthwhile. I'd rather just not hire him out in Friekorp theme and use the other actual good models in Outcasts. but if I do that, might as well play another master becuase they offer better things. Right now his best options are that he can reposition an enemy model, more than likely at hte expense of leaving himself open to counter attack. 

I would agree - but I use the oathkeeper one for the :+fate flips.  Don't forget, that's positive to defence as well.  Fast is an option those models can use when necessary, but having a couple of models operating positive flips against a tank or master is really nice. Or if Schill has wounded 2-3 models in a turn, they all cop positive flips.  A model with blasts getting positive flips is really handy.  I've been giving Oathkeeper to Librarian and Lazarus so far.  Positive flips on flurry?  Yes please!  Depending on the game, but I've been liking using Schill's entire first turn handing out Oathkeeper.  This way it helps keep him closer to his army as he is, after all, a support master.  

Don't forget, Schill can appoint Oathkeeper to himself too - gives him more survivability against select models.  

There's also the option of Ml your own models to do a place.  Highly situational, and close to changing 1 AP for another, but could be really effective. 

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2 hours ago, Mrbedlam said:

After the first game I just can't see a reason for the Oathkeeper one. There's just not very many situations where effectively changing out a master ap for a minion/enforcer AP is worthwhile. I'd rather just not hire him out in Friekorp theme and use the other actual good models in Outcasts. but if I do that, might as well play another master becuase they offer better things. Right now his best options are that he can reposition an enemy model, more than likely at hte expense of leaving himself open to counter attack. 

Looking at the upgrade, it almost looks like a lot of the value might not be in burning it for fast but in getting the plus flips against everything that Von Schill damaged that turn as well as letting Von Schill roll over his AP from one turn to the next since he can give himself Oathkeeper. If I'm reading the card correctly Von Schill can use all three of his AP on the first turn to get 3 copies of Oathkeeper. That pretty much amounts to passing on his first turn to be a 4AP model for 3 turns. That seems like a pretty sweet deal since in a lot of cases masters piss away a point or two of AP in turn one. If you've got someone that can move him up the board to be in position for turn two it might be kind of cool.  

The upgrade also probably shines in pools with Show of Force where Von Schill can activate late and give Oathkeepr to a model or two that is in scoring (or denying) position.  

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Actually, Priority Target doesn't specify that the Oathkeeper carrier has to be a Freikorps. You could start the game with Ashes and Dust carrying Oathkeeper, an upgrade generally useless to it, and have it follow Von Schill around tag-teaming with him. Ml7 3/4/6 with positive flips? I'll take it.

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9 minutes ago, Freman said:

Actually, Priority Target doesn't specify that the Oathkeeper carrier has to be a Freikorps. You could start the game with Ashes and Dust carrying Oathkeeper, an upgrade generally useless to it, and have it follow Von Schill around tag-teaming with him. Ml7 3/4/6 with positive flips? I'll take it.

You mean 'you have your target' :P

Hey, that's a really good point.  I didn't realise that.  Killjoy definitely needs oathkeeper now :P

It's just that you can't hand it to them mid-game. 

 

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8 hours ago, Freman said:

Indeed. Von Schill's Stand And Shoot allows him to wound a few targets in a turn, which gives you multiple targets that your Oathsworn can bash.

Stand and Shoot can't be taken into the equation.  In 40+ games with VS, I've never once taken that ability.  In order to get value out of it, you need at least 3 targets, all of which can't be in cover, or else you're on minus flips.  So you'd have to spend stones or you're going to miss. 

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10 hours ago, Freman said:

Chuck Oathkeeper on Schill, Lazarus, and Strongarm, and then hit things. Your beaters getting positives against models they need to kill can only be a good thing.

Except to pull all of that off, you're spending some combination of 3AP to throw it out, then at least 1 AP to walk into position and then 1AP to shoot, if you want it on turn 2.  If you're setting up for turn 3, its pretty obvious what you're gonna be doing.

And the main problem with going for this massive 1-2 Priority Target Punch is that VS crews are so consistently out activated, its easy for your opponent to take the hits, then counterpunch and wipe out the model(s).  

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a TON of potential, but its just not viable YET.  Once GG18 hits, I think VS will be actually competitive. I'm working on some lists that focus on push/place synergies for Nythera Aftermath

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3 hours ago, Davos said:

Except to pull all of that off, you're spending some combination of 3AP to throw it out, then at least 1 AP to walk into position and then 1AP to shoot, if you want it on turn 2.  If you're setting up for turn 3, its pretty obvious what you're gonna be doing.

And the main problem with going for this massive 1-2 Priority Target Punch is that VS crews are so consistently out activated, its easy for your opponent to take the hits, then counterpunch and wipe out the model(s).  

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a TON of potential, but its just not viable YET.  Once GG18 hits, I think VS will be actually competitive. I'm working on some lists that focus on push/place synergies for Nythera Aftermath

You don't need to use Von Schill's AP to hand out Oathkeeper, except on himself if he's taking all three upgrades. Just hire two models with Oathkeeper.

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10 hours ago, Davos said:

Except to pull all of that off, you're spending some combination of 3AP to throw it out, then at least 1 AP to walk into position and then 1AP to shoot, if you want it on turn 2.  If you're setting up for turn 3, its pretty obvious what you're gonna be doing.

And the main problem with going for this massive 1-2 Priority Target Punch is that VS crews are so consistently out activated, its easy for your opponent to take the hits, then counterpunch and wipe out the model(s).  

Don't get me wrong, I think there is a TON of potential, but its just not viable YET.  Once GG18 hits, I think VS will be actually competitive. I'm working on some lists that focus on push/place synergies for Nythera Aftermath

Have you used the combination of those 2 upgrades before?  It's not all that easy for an opponent to take 6-7 hits, most on either single or double positive.  Especially if you get 'cracked' on one of those.  Then to follow up with another model.  There aren't many models that can take that much of a pounding. 

I don't think 'telegraphing' your intent is a big deal. 

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8 hours ago, Freman said:

You don't need to use Von Schill's AP to hand out Oathkeeper, except on himself if he's taking all three upgrades. Just hire two models with Oathkeeper.

Once, just to see if I could do it, bought VS with the two new upgrades and Scramble, then used Emissary to put on The Shirt Comes Off, the used all three actions to put all three Oath Keepers on VS.  That left him with 3 rounds of 4AP with a 9" charge and a 2" melee range, ignoring everyone and terrain. 

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2 hours ago, Jesy Blue said:

Once, just to see if I could do it, bought VS with the two new upgrades and Scramble, then used Emissary to put on The Shirt Comes Off, the used all three actions to put all three Oath Keepers on VS.  That left him with 3 rounds of 4AP with a 9" charge and a 2" melee range, ignoring everyone and terrain. 

How'd that work out?

I've only played him twice with the new upgrades, and on one occasion I used turn 1 to give Oathkeeper to himself, Lazarus and Librarian.  I didn't have any particular need for him to be moving upfield fast. 

I don't expect those models to burn oathkeeper, but the flexibility is there. 

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I think there is a lot of fun to be had here, I just feel like I'll be still wishing I had more activations so I could use them in the order I want.  I'm certain I'll be forced to activate models before I can get the perfect combo out of the way.  In addition still being on Cache 1,  I feel that I'll be low on the defense needing cards and stones but quickly running out of both.  In my mind Oathsworn and I pay better could make for some really strong attacking from most anyone but the card drain could mean I'm topdecking for damage, even if I get the straight flip.  + Duel doesn't guarantee I'm not on - for damage. 

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What card drain?  The only real issue is having to hit the mask for reposition.

While he may still be out activated, given his upgrades are a lot more 'schemey' (they're good for more than killing), I'd argue that it mitigates the lower number of activations - especially as it makes some of the big hitters hit bigger (against some models) and be tougher to take down (against some models).  Given that him and his crew are fairly resilient I've felt that activation order is less important with him than, say, Viks.

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13 hours ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

How'd that work out?

I've only played him twice with the new upgrades, and on one occasion I used turn 1 to give Oathkeeper to himself, Lazarus and Librarian.  I didn't have any particular need for him to be moving upfield fast. 

I don't expect those models to burn oathkeeper, but the flexibility is there. 

I lost horrible because I picked a sniper crew (trappers and hans) vs Rasputina and got out shot as well as misread a scheme. 

Had a blast jumping VS across the table and back again, though, so worth it.

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I have not tried the new upgrades (I just bought the book and the cards this weekend).  What I really work hardest on him is I Pay Better.  Loyal, For Now is basically his primary skill.  I use every card every turn; low cards are discarded for a free focus and high cards are cheated.  It essentially negates cover and lets me chest damage almost whenever necessary.

The other go to ability is his ability to charge through terrain.

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14 hours ago, noahsheck said:

I have not tried the new upgrades (I just bought the book and the cards this weekend).  What I really work hardest on him is I Pay Better.  Loyal, For Now is basically his primary skill.  I use every card every turn; low cards are discarded for a free focus and high cards are cheated.  It essentially negates cover and lets me chest damage almost whenever necessary.

The other go to ability is his ability to charge through terrain.

I pay better is awesome, but I usually stick it on Hannah and form a tag team with trappers. Schill's upgrade slots are already crowded. Trappers with double focus wreck things, and they can reposition to keep up with Hannah if you want to move forward.

One thing I like about the Nythera + oath upgrades is that as long as you have OK on yourself, you can create some fun shenanigans with charge, punch, place, shoot, reposition trigger back to contact, 2nd charge punch, send the enemy flying again and shoot. Everything after the first slap is on positives, and you and can move something up to 12" if you keep hitting. You'll want to drain the opponent's hand before though so they are less likely to stop you from hitting with your attacks.

Has anyone tried Anna with the new upgrades? I feel like it has potential, because her main attach does not randomize in combat, and Schill will be in the thick of it most of the time. Give her oathkeeper and she can finish off models that Schill has wounded. Although yes, the emissary basically does the same thing with an aura and the added bonus of better scheming abilities and shirt generation.

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2 minutes ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Any thoughts on how to drain the hand?

I wonder if Montressor would go well with Schill now...

Simplest way is probably to just put dangerous attacks from range on key models, The trappers are great at this because they can activate early, and the :+fate:+fate:+fate (I pay better + focus) means that you'll most likely have a good card from the flip and the Sh 5 tempts the opponent to cheat because they can.

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29 minutes ago, CapnBloodbeard said:

Any thoughts on how to drain the hand?

I wonder if Montressor would go well with Schill now...

Common ways include Horror Duels, and other simple duels (Desolation engine, abominations and so forth). But if they know what you are doing, then they can still save good cards to stop the Von Schill train. 

Shoot their master with Hans, and most people will drop cards to stop it, but they'll be low ones. (Especially if you happen to have the ability to remove their upgrades). 

Insta kill triggers are also useful, I just can't think fo any off hand you can easily get into a schill list

 

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