Gremlins and GG18 - A new hope?!? (current state)

[daniello_s]

I don't see them them weak. They die fast (faster than Desperate Mercs who at least can't be charged and Guards with their Armor +1) so you have to be very very careful how you use them especially considering that you can basically use Drunk & Reckless once in a game. Bayou 2 Cards when used means you are in desperate situation and you are hoping for a miracle most of the time (still good they have this ability).

[trikk]

4 minutes ago, daniello_s said:

I don't see them them weak. They die fast (faster than Desperate Mercs who at least can't be charged and Guards with their Armor +1) so you have to be very very careful how you use them especially considering that you can basically use Drunk & Reckless once in a game. Bayou 2 Cards when used means you are in desperate situation and you are hoping for a miracle most of the time (still good they have this ability).

You can DnR once if you run of scheming. If you`re shooting you might be able to heal from Slops/LBs. That being said, they have the best scheming potential of the three.

Bayou Two card is also good offensively since most of the time you don`t want to waste your hand on Bayou shots.

[daniello_s]

I never played Bayou gunline before. Maybe on the quite bare table, with Somer and Lenny (and Slop Haulers) beside it would make a sense. 

[Zebo]

Bayou 2 Cards is awesome, since it's a second chance for everiy flip you make without spend your hand. 

 

I feel that both 3 (Guild Guard, Desperate Merc and Bayou Gremlin) are quite equal.

IMHO the Guild Guard is a little bit above, since it can have Def 6 and is harder than the other 2 and better scheming (with the push) and can force the enemy to pass Horror duels while moving. In the other side, it's a little bit worse attacking than the other 2.

The Desperate Merc is quite solid (for 3ss) offensively, with the better damage tracks, positives when wounded and the possibility of make 4 attacks each activation. To be disguised is a buff, and the chance of recover 1ss when dies (making him a 2ss model) is simply awesome. 

The Bayou Gremlin has better range than the Desperate Merc and, while less reliable, has some advantages like  attacks in a 3ss model or a very good damage track (that hurts you), but also pushing yourself can help to shoot-push-interact. It's the worst model in close combat, but has a trigger on def that push you and puts you away of your opponent reach. Also, the 2 Card Bayou makes this model better both attacking and defending (or making horror duels, or any other kind of flip) 

[Ludvig]

22 minutes ago, Zebo said:

Bayou 2 Cards is awesome, since it's a second chance for everiy flip you make without spend your hand. 

 

I feel that both 3 (Guild Guard, Desperate Merc and Bayou Gremlin) are quite equal.

IMHO the Guild Guard is a little bit above, since it can have Def 6 and is harder than the other 2 and better scheming (with the pulse) and can force the enemy to pass Horror duels while moving. In the other side, it's a little bit worse attacking than the other 2.

What is the pulse you mention? Do you mean the movement towards enemy scheme markers? No one as ever been kind enough to leave those around for me, most of them get put down right before someone schemes off them to remove them. The horror action is quite awful if you want to move because you need to beat the enemy and have at least a 7 ram card in your duel total. I have never ever felt I wanted to spend a high-ish ram on that action because every guild model needs them for crit strikes. If the action didn't need a ram to succeed it might have been situationally useful. They are definitely sturdier than the others though.

That's why bayou two-card is so nice, these 3ss guys are crap model that you will likely not spend the top card in your hand for.

[Zebo]

24 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

What is the pulse you mention? Do you mean the movement towards enemy scheme markers? No one as ever been kind enough to leave those around for me, most of them get put down right before someone schemes off them to remove them. The horror action is quite awful if you want to move because you need to beat the enemy and have at least a 7 ram card in your duel total. I have never ever felt I wanted to spend a high-ish ram on that action because every guild model needs them for crit strikes. If the action didn't need a ram to succeed it might have been situationally useful. They are definitely sturdier than the others though.

That's why bayou two-card is so nice, these 3ss guys are crap model that you will likely not spend the top card in your hand for.

Sorry, yes I meant push. 

And the menace is a Tactical action, and is a simple duel. I think a horror duel worth a 7, you could force your opponent to spend a high card. 

[trikk]

5 minutes ago, Zebo said:

And the menace is a Tactical action, and is a simple duel. I think a horror duel worth a 7, you could force your opponent to spend a high card. 

Its not worth it. And most of the time you won`t have a 7. More like 8-10

[Ludvig]

A tn 12 horror will likely force your opponent to spend a 6 or 7 themselves so you are mostly trading one of your cards for one of theirs if they don't top deck. 

Had forgotten it was a tactical though. Might be situationally worth a 7 ram actually, there are situations where you want to disengage without the walk duel.

[edopersichetti]

My thoughts on GG18 after my first big tournament are that we're in an ok spot. I arrived second so obviously things went pretty well for me but I have to say 2 out 4 opponents were not really prepared for what was coming their way and I had an easier time than I thought.

- Som'er: I'm not a big fan at all, didn't play him in GG17 so will keep not playing him now and I'm happy if he gets played less overall
- Ophelia: she got some help with the useless junk, Kin crew is now an option even though far from Tier 1 still (they need to tweak her upgrades mechanics still, 3 slots only is not enough). I've played her with some success in Public Executions (for obvious reasons).
- Wong: he was one of my top picks in the past, and even more so now. The big 3AP upgrade I don't like, but Sparkly Lights has been surprisingly useful and I think he's really top choice especially in Symbols
- Ulix: I don't know why he's not so popular, he's an incredibly strong master for me. Has some very reliable summoning (no suit needed!) and lots of bodies for out-activation. Piglets are great at Ply, he also really shone for me in Ours - summoned models don't count but they're excellent at tying up enemy models. You can summon a Warpig every turn plus extra piglets as needed...so yeah I really enjoy playing him.
- Zipp: still one of our best masters, I played him in Ply also but he can do a lot of things, his crew is always very slippery and his attacks are really good, plus First Mate really always performs very well for me.
- Mah: I think she's viable now also, I want to try her with Wrastlers but I haven't got mine yet. I'll try to play her a few times and see how it goes.
- Zoraida: it looks like she's now a top tier choice in Neverborn (she was everywhere at the tournament!) but because I love a good challenge, I'm trying a few lists to see if her Gremlin version has a chance to be competitive also. It's a pity to be forced to pay 2SS just to hire Will o Wisps, and we don't have Iggy or Nekima but we do have some interesting models of our own (Sammy, Trixie, Mancha etc.) I'd be curious to hear experiences from who has been playing her regularly in Gremlins (not many, I guess).

As for latest models, the most promising is the Crier, he can really shine in at least 3 strategies to deny points. BBB also has potential with condition removal but he is fragile (we discussed him at length in another thread). Wrastlers also might be interesting (as I said, I have to try them), the rest are meh IMHO. We do have some options with Survivors though.

Final thoughts are about Pigapult: yes it can be very helpful. I witnessed the Pigapult+Tanuki combo though, and that's just pure filth. I mean, whatever gets you a win and is legal is alright, I guess, but this is a broken interaction (didn't playtesters notice this before releasing Tanuki??) and it will likely be fixed asap - probably on the Tanuki side, because I don't think is the Pigapult that needs fixing. Personally I believe it's just not fun so I don't plan on using it and I don't think it's a must - there are other ways to win without making it a bad experience for your opponent. At the tournament one game essentially started 6-0 by auto-scoring Set Up + Public Demonstration on turn 2...to be honest I think that'd be frustrating for everyone. It's also not good for Gremlins as a faction because it is this kind of combos that bring a bad name and get people roaring, to which a nerf follows. Stuffed Piglets were nerfed when every second Gremlins list hired 6 of them to just get out-activation...

[trikk]

14 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

My thoughts on GG18 after my first big tournament are that we're in an ok spot. I arrived second so obviously things went pretty well for me but I have to say 2 out 4 opponents were not really prepared for what was coming their way and I had an easier time than I thought.

- Som'er: I'm not a big fan at all, didn't play him in GG17 so will keep not playing him now and I'm happy if he gets played less overall
- Ophelia: she got some help with the useless junk, Kin crew is now an option even though far from Tier 1 still (they need to tweak her upgrades mechanics still, 3 slots only is not enough). I've played her with some success in Public Executions (for obvious reasons).
- Wong: he was one of my top picks in the past, and even more so now. The big 3AP upgrade I don't like, but Sparkly Lights has been surprisingly useful and I think he's really top choice especially in Symbols
- Ulix: I don't know why he's not so popular, he's an incredibly strong master for me. Has some very reliable summoning (no suit needed!) and lots of bodies for out-activation. Piglets are great at Ply, he also really shone for me in Ours - summoned models don't count but they're excellent at tying up enemy models. You can summon a Warpig every turn plus extra piglets as needed...so yeah I really enjoy playing him.
- Zipp: still one of our best masters, I played him in Ply also but he can do a lot of things, his crew is always very slippery and his attacks are really good, plus First Mate really always performs very well for me.
- Mah: I think she's viable now also, I want to try her with Wrastlers but I haven't got mine yet. I'll try to play her a few times and see how it goes.
- Zoraida: it looks like she's now a top tier choice in Neverborn (she was everywhere at the tournament!) but because I love a good challenge, I'm trying a few lists to see if her Gremlin version has a chance to be competitive also. It's a pity to be forced to pay 2SS just to hire Will o Wisps, and we don't have Iggy or Nekima but we do have some interesting models of our own (Sammy, Trixie, Mancha etc.) I'd be curious to hear experiences from who has been playing her regularly in Gremlins (not many, I guess).

As for latest models, the most promising is the Crier, he can really shine in at least 3 strategies to deny points. BBB also has potential with condition removal but he is fragile (we discussed him at length in another thread). Wrastlers also might be interesting (as I said, I have to try them), the rest are meh IMHO. We do have some options with Survivors though.

Final thoughts are about Pigapult: yes it can be very helpful. I witnessed the Pigapult+Tanuki combo though, and that's just pure filth. I mean, whatever gets you a win and is legal is alright, I guess, but this is a broken interaction (didn't playtesters notice this before releasing Tanuki??) and it will likely be fixed asap - probably on the Tanuki side, because I don't think is the Pigapult that needs fixing. Personally I believe it's just not fun so I don't plan on using it and I don't think it's a must - there are other ways to win without making it a bad experience for your opponent. At the tournament one game essentially started 6-0 by auto-scoring Set Up + Public Demonstration on turn 2...to be honest I think that'd be frustrating for everyone. It's also not good for Gremlins as a faction because it is this kind of combos that bring a bad name and get people roaring, to which a nerf follows. Stuffed Piglets were nerfed when every second Gremlins list hired 6 of them to just get out-activation...

I`m really happy to hear people like you and people like me can finally come to an agreement

I totally agree about Ulix. I played versus Wrastlers and they seem pretty decent!

 

I personally think Pigapult should just work a lot better independently and be less oppressive for the opponent. Right now its either a bad experience (2SS Piglets) or overcosted (3SS Piglets)

[edopersichetti]

23 minutes ago, trikk said:

I`m really happy to hear people like you and people like me can finally come to an agreement

I totally agree about Ulix. I played versus Wrastlers and they seem pretty decent!

 

I personally think Pigapult should just work a lot better independently and be less oppressive for the opponent. Right now its either a bad experience (2SS Piglets) or overcosted (3SS Piglets)

Hahahah I'm happy to agree with you too, for once

As for Ulix: I guess it's really up to players and personal playstyles. Maybe some players struggle to use him, for me he's always been excellent. Hey, I mean, while everyone was celebrating Som'er as the best Gremlin master ever, I never really played him and I don't enjoy him at all so...I guess diversity is good for the game. Now with the latest adjustments I feel the faction is more balanced (in terms of masters). This is not the case for, like, Outcasts and Arcanists for example: Sandeep is the new Som'er

Yes, I'd love to see the Pigapult finally in a balanced place. I guess it is a very difficult piece to balance because it can quickly become too strong (and frustrating for opponent) or underwhelming. And the problem is not just the Stuffed and its attack, it's that it can also launch models in position so, again, this can be too strong (see Tanuki) or underwhelming. Basically the problem is that to limit the power of launching models, the models get paralyzed, but Tanuki have found a way around this (they still count for schemes and drop a scheme marker even when paralyzed). That's why I believe the problem is with Tanuki and not with Pigapult in this particular instance...for example, their Take a Nap ability could be reworded so that it doesn't work if models are paralyzed?

[Nukemouse]

That particular combo isn't unique to Tanuki though really is it? Models moved with Fling could often already place scheme markers without interacting i thought?

[edopersichetti]

9 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

That particular combo isn't unique to Tanuki though really is it? Models moved with Fling could often already place scheme markers without interacting i thought?

Fling? What's that?

The problem here is that Tanuki ignore the Paralyzed given from Pigapult and so they are able to place scheme markers without even activating - for me, that's an unfair advantage and I'm not aware of any other model that can be Launched and still drop scheme markers.

[PolishSausage]

I agree with the tanuki thing. Its simply a testing error that could have been stopped (ht 2 tanuki).

Now we have this strong combo available to us. The problem is you will be an :"exploiter" if you use this in a tournament.

I think this is a common issue with most gremlin lists, in order to really shine in tournament scene they tend to abuse one thing or another.

As opposed to most other factions just running their "regular" list building we are treading a fine line of list exploiting.

(than again Collodi strumming and obeying a stitch to gamble your life 4x than accomplice into the stitch that strums for 3x more gambles could also be defined as abusive)

[Nukemouse]

2 hours ago, edopersichetti said:

Fling? What's that?

The problem here is that Tanuki ignore the Paralyzed given from Pigapult and so they are able to place scheme markers without even activating - for me, that's an unfair advantage and I'm not aware of any other model that can be Launched and still drop scheme markers.

Sorry i meant Toss. Fling is the seamus emissary ability. For example. Lenny can Toss a Flying Piglet, which then uses its ability to place a scheme marker. Lenny can also Toss a Kin who then activates useless junk to place a scheme marker. A rat catcher can reactivate a winged plague who can then fly 18 inches before placing a scheme marker which thanks to flight will be able to easily avoid any engagements by simply flying past terrain.

[Ludvig]

4 hours ago, PolishSausage said:

Now we have this strong combo available to us. The problem is you will be an :"exploiter" if you use this in a tournament.

I think this is a common issue with most gremlin lists, in order to really shine in tournament scene they tend to abuse one thing or another.

As opposed to most other factions just running their "regular" list building we are treading a fine line of list exploiting.

(than again Collodi strumming and obeying a stitch to gamble your life 4x than accomplice into the stitch that strums for 3x more gambles could also be defined as abusive)

I think you should be less hard on yourself. Most tournament lists that are really successful are exploiting some strength, that is what tournament play naturally gravitates to. I don't see how throwing tanuki and using their rules is more of an exploit than most other power combos. No one ever gave me crap for using the Papabox even though it was an obvious exploit. It even got errata but it's not like people came and told me that all my games before that point shouldn't count. 

[Flinroz]

As the person (I think, was it at LVO?) who did the Tanuki thing at a tournament, I just wanted to see if it was viable.

 

I got lucky and got to use the pigapault to kill 2 scheme runners turn 1, then turn 2 did the tanuki-pault for Set Up and Public Demo. I then proceded to only win my one point because I had just thrown 3 Punish the Weak models to Seamus.

 

I was fun, but honestly I don't know that I would bother to do it in a tournament setting again.

[Dogmantra]

I wouldn't think of Tanukipult as that much of an exploit tbh. You have to jump through quite a few hoops and do it in the right scheme pool.

Like, you have to bring Brewmaster and the pigapult, which is quite a big opportunity cost, and imo non-summoners aren't amazing with the pult. Then you either have the tanuki wait around doing nothing until you want to use it, or you have to launch them turn one.

There are plenty of downsides, and I'm sure Aaron knows that the abilty works when paralysed. I think it seems fine to me, even when you get the perfect storm and score 6 points turn 1

[Ludvig]

Yeah, if someone invests that heavily that is more than fine by me. Tanuki seem designed to specifically do this while paralyzed since they could easily have made it into an action if they wanted to avoid that trick. They're squishy as hell so no biggie.

[edopersichetti]

6 hours ago, Nukemouse said:

Sorry i meant Toss. Fling is the seamus emissary ability. For example. Lenny can Toss a Flying Piglet, which then uses its ability to place a scheme marker. Lenny can also Toss a Kin who then activates useless junk to place a scheme marker. A rat catcher can reactivate a winged plague who can then fly 18 inches before placing a scheme marker which thanks to flight will be able to easily avoid any engagements by simply flying past terrain.

Toss is ok but
- is 10" and not 24"
- can only do it twice (Reckless Pigapult can do it three times)
- it's a push, not a place

The problem is not placing A scheme markers but THREE scheme markers, simultaneously and pretty much anywhere on the table without even activating, so that a scheme like Set Up becomes auto-score. All you need to do is deploy Pigapult and three Tanuki next to it, and then wait for your "designated victim" to activate. To do the same with Toss and Kin/Flying Piglets, you need a lot more resources and planning...

[edopersichetti]

3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Yeah, if someone invests that heavily that is more than fine by me. Tanuki seem designed to specifically do this while paralyzed since they could easily have made it into an action if they wanted to avoid that trick. They're squishy as hell so no biggie.

It's 23 SS, it's well worth the investment if it scores you 6VP...in a tournament game, such a head start is almost always beyond reach.

For me, any combo for which the opponent doesn't have an answer is NOT fine. It is not fun for the opponent to lose like that. I'm sure this is not how Set Up was intended to be scored either. And I agree with @PolishSausage that is probably overlooked during testing phase, and I think it will be addressed sooner rather than later.

3 hours ago, Flinroz said:

As the person (I think, was it at LVO?) who did the Tanuki thing at a tournament, I just wanted to see if it was viable.

 

I got lucky and got to use the pigapault to kill 2 scheme runners turn 1, then turn 2 did the tanuki-pault for Set Up and Public Demo. I then proceded to only win my one point because I had just thrown 3 Punish the Weak models to Seamus.

 

I was fun, but honestly I don't know that I would bother to do it in a tournament setting again.

Nothing wrong with trying this thing out mate, it's good to try out these things and it is helpful to highlight design flaws/features.

I spoke with your opponent, he was rather furious, so it must not have been fun for him 

[Ludvig]

4 hours ago, Flinroz said:

 

I was fun, but honestly I don't know that I would bother to do it in a tournament setting again.

If setup andpublic demo are in the same pool it's 6VP in one fell swoop which might be hard for the opponent to recover from depending on the other schemes in the game. In a quarter strat or ply you might be able to just sit in your deployment and shoot and do this with five minutes left of the game. Apart from that it doesn't seem worth the investment.

[Ludvig]

51 minutes ago, edopersichetti said:

It's 23 SS, it's well worth the investment if it scores you 6VP...in a tournament game, such a head start is almost always beyond reach.

For me, any combo for which the opponent doesn't have an answer is NOT fine. It is not fun for the opponent to lose like that. I'm sure this is not how Set Up was intended to be scored either. And I agree with @PolishSausage that is probably overlooked during testing phase, and I think it will be addressed sooner rather than later.

This combo is not umpossible to counter. 

Anna Lovelace is a merc with a very good collection of skills making her worth 10ss with the merc cost. One of those skills straight up makes the placement into a scoring position completely impossible if the opponent is smart enough to have her standing near the model the Tanuki can score off and limit the amount of models you can chose to score from.

The combo also requires the tanuki to activate for the full 6vp so the gremlin player needs a 4 activation advantage which is far from guaranteed.

Apart from that the opponent can counter it by scoring their own VP or killing the models involved. If the gremlin player does pick this scheme combination and the other player kills the pigapult the gremlin has a pretty uphill battle ahead.

[PolishSausage]

what I would do is take the now hated stuffed piglets/pere and throw them with the tanukis

this way they all detonate each other t1/t2 giving less models for opponent to grab points from.

 

Again it will be NPE because of what it does.

On the Public demo scheme - its just naturally bad.

having 3 Bunrakus walk 21 inches with strum on an out-activation Colodi game for T1 Public Demo was also very very lame.

[Ludvig]

There are a few boring public demo tricks and I agree that it isn't one of the better designed schemes but it's still only 3vp, that doesn't mean an auto lose like it sounds in this thread. The opponent should reasonably have a plan for scoring 3vp off their schemes and counterbuilding for public demo should make it possible to deny the easy 3vp. Take a backfield master or an alpha strike and kill the likely offenders. It's a bit silly that it even counts on enforcers though, makes counter building a bit tricker so only killing the right models remains an option for most lists.