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Wave 5 refining our meta


Sanik

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Borrowing the idea from the Arcanist and Outcasts forum, now that we had sometime to toy with the new models and upgrades I would like to start a thread about the current ranking of our masters at this point. My current ranking is

 

1. Lilith: I know that was a great discussion about if Collodi would be hit with the oh-so-dreadful-nerf-bat, I still think Lilith is the better choice than Colloidi. I am still playing "The Greg's list" most of time, with sometimes Serena Bowman subbing for Johan, and still feel like I can respond to any strat or Schemes Most people suspect that GG2018 will bring that Elite crews back, and Lilith would do even better as she can tangle shadow to displace opponents models and kill them one by one. I was a bit disappointed that she didn't get much boost in Wave 5, but I guess it simply shows how powerful she already is.

2. Collodi: He has so many "not-so-Neverborn-like" tricks: such as trapper + 3 changelings with effigy buffs, or Lazarus + Hannah interactions. Based on which limited upgrade to take, he can either be the AP spreading support master or the control master who can screw opponents'' game plan hard. He can even now summon to expend his crew during a game, although the cost might a bit too rich for my blood. Overall, very powerful and flexible master

3. Dreamer: Even after the Nerf, I still think that the summoning dreamer is top tier master. He can solve any problems simply by overwhelming the board with so many models. Wyrd pushed chompi dreamer by giving 2 chompi related upgrades, and there's extra shenanigans with Serena Bowman for placement tricks, but I am not sure if those are enough not to play summoning Dreamer.

4. Titania: The winner of the Wave 5. the New upgrade finally made her "the tank master" she meant to be. I personally don't play her, but played against her few times, and boy can she take hits. She excels at any holding ground type of strats (i.e. extraction, guard the stashes).  Before Titania, our solution to holding ground games were to lure the opponents out of the holding position or simply try to out number them (*cough*dreamer*cough*) but, now we have an option to get inside and play some good ol' smashmouth football!

5. Pandora: The most frustrating master to play against, she is really good at controlling the pace of the game. But the problem I see is that IMHO, the Collodi controls the game better. Pandora is very unique, and her "controlling the order of activation" is indeed interesting and powerful, I would rather simply kill or kick that model out of threat range so that I don't have to worry about it at all. And the fact that 'Dora is extremely  difficult master to play well makes her even more less appealing that Collodi.

6. Jakob Lynch: I think he is just simply better as Ten-Thurnder. His biggest problem is that he is a ranged dealer, whose range is short. I mean 8 inches? most models can charge 8 inches or more! Thus he needs extra help (i.e. pushes from other models) to get into the range and that another tar-pit to protect him or be engaged with opponent's models.   I was hoping that he would get a new upgrade which will manipulate the decks even more, because I don't think he is manipulating the deck as well as his lore or name suggests (and that's the only selling point. Right now, his manipulating power is not as powerful as Lilith's placement shenanigans or Coolodi's control so unfortunately Lynch sits at bottom. I hope he will get more tricks in his hat in near future.

7. Lucius: I think Lucius is also better at his other faction: Guild. I heard that with Witching Thrall and Cap. Deshall's new upgrade, he is getting some love at the Guild, but we (1) do not have a minion who automatically pass horror check (2) no summoning back up from the Cap, (3) most importantly, Collodi does WAY BETTER at abusing minions than Lucius. I just don't see choosing him over other masters sadly.

8. Zoraida: Her main selling point is the obey, and even have a cool name new upgrade (POWERFUL CONTROL), but I just don't see how powerful she is. Maybe it's because I never played her well, or no one in my meta plays her seriously. But I just don't see any appealing reasons to chose her over other masters either - but I can be wrong!

 

What do you guys think? 

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Zoraida at place 5? Ehm have you played vs her lately? =D 

My List: 

1. Collodi/Zoraida
2. Lilith/Dreamer/A very well played Pandora
3. Titania/A normal Pandora
4. Lynch/Lucius

I think controll is the best thing about neverborn at the moment and Collodi and Zoraida are just so good at this. 
Lilith and Dreamer are more alround and solid for everything. Pandora is also super controlly but in a more specific scenario compared to collodi and zoraida and much harder to play well.
Titania got a nice boost and is good at what she does, but its also situational.
Lucius feel like the little brother of Collodi and there is always the question why would I not take collodi instead.
Lynch seems way to straight forward and predictable. Also he just dies way to early (In my experience).

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1 hour ago, Sanik said:

 

8. Zoraida: Her main selling point is the obey, and even have a cool name new upgrade (POWERFUL CONTROL), but I just don't see how powerful she is. Maybe it's because I never played her well, or no one in my meta plays her seriously. But I just don't see any appealing reasons to chose her over other masters either - but I can be wrong!

I'd say her main selling point is the extreme ap efficiency and flexebility of bewitch + obey. Puting your own models in the spot where they want to be is often the worse choice compared to putting the enemy in bad spots and drawing a ton of cards while doing it and therefore protecting your crew and buffing its offense aswell. Also she shines against frame for murder, which, at least in my meta, people love to play.

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Hmm. I don't quite know how to rank the Masters since I haven't played all of them and I'm the only active NB player in my group, but I think Titania is now extremely flexible. Her new Limited upgrades add 2 very strong roles to her - one as a tank, the other as a Master/SS user hunter. She already can run scheme marker based schemes very well, so this just adds to her flexibility. So much so that now I am confident of running her reliably in a single Master tourney, and in a fixed faction tourney, I'm comfortable dropping Lilith and just bringing Titania and Pandora. 

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On 2017. 10. 27. at 3:47 PM, Drunken Kung Fu Kid said:

Zoraida at place 5? Ehm have you played vs her lately? =D 

My List: 

1. Collodi/Zoraida
2. Lilith/Dreamer/A very well played Pandora
3. Titania/A normal Pandora
4. Lynch/Lucius

I think controll is the best thing about neverborn at the moment and Collodi and Zoraida are just so good at this. 
Lilith and Dreamer are more alround and solid for everything. Pandora is also super controlly but in a more specific scenario compared to collodi and zoraida and much harder to play well.
Titania got a nice boost and is good at what she does, but its also situational.
Lucius feel like the little brother of Collodi and there is always the question why would I not take collodi instead.
Lynch seems way to straight forward and predictable. Also he just dies way to early (In my experience).

I played against Zoraida only once, but I wasn't really that impressed. Maybe because he didn't quite get how to utlize her new upgrade? IDK... What does she use? how does Zoraida's list look like now?

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8 hours ago, Sanik said:

I played against Zoraida only once, but I wasn't really that impressed. Maybe because he didn't quite get how to utlize her new upgrade? IDK... What does she use? how does Zoraida's list look like now?

1. Take Iggy and a WilloWisp. For 8 points you get 3 activations (those 2 and a Voodoo doll), a ton of damage, and a few other bonuses (well... mainly bypassing Frame shenanigans).

2. Take her new upgrade. Being able to get your Nekima to charge for ONE of Z's ap, and then still have a full activation left is not too shabby. Forcing your opponents Big Scary Beater to charge into their own crew is even better. And at cast 7 vs Willpower, with you only needing to tie, it's pretty much a guarantee. Even without that, using 2-3 AP to move 2-3 enemy models out of position can really screw your opponents' plans.

3. Past that, take what you want? She's a very generic master and mostly just helps your crew just do better what they were going to do anyways. General Neverborn goodstuff is made better thanks to the AP control (or improved card selection via Bewitch).

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On 27/10/2017 at 7:12 AM, Sanik said:

 

 

1. Lilith: I know that was a great discussion about if Collodi would be hit with the oh-so-dreadful-nerf-bat, I still think Lilith is the better choice than Colloidi. I am still playing "The Greg's list" most of time, with sometimes Serena Bowman subbing for Johan, and still feel like I can respond to any strat or Schemes Most people suspect that GG2018 will bring that Elite crews back, and Lilith would do even better as she can tangle shadow to displace opponents models and kill them one by one. I was a bit disappointed that she didn't get much boost in Wave 5, but I guess it simply shows how powerful she already is.

 

May i ask which list is Greg's list? 

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3 hours ago, Luca 2.0 said:

May i ask which list is Greg's list? 

Lilith - Beckon Malifaux, Wings of Darkness, (sometimes Aether Connection) - 6ss cache (5ss with Aether Connection)

Primordial Magic

Nekima

Mr. Graves

Johan - Retribution's Eye

Doppelganger

Terror Tot

Mysterious Effigy

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4 hours ago, Luca 2.0 said:

so basically the tipical lilith list! i was hoping in something untipical never seen! :) anyway thx for posting the list! even if now i would probably think about cyclops! istead of nekima/teddy! maybe 2!

Yes, its the list lots of people have copied over the past few years. I think The Greg talked about it on a pod cast 3 years ago, and since then its been a popular copy because of its power. 

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On 2017. 10. 29. at 10:51 AM, chryspainthemum said:

1. Take Iggy and a WilloWisp. For 8 points you get 3 activations (those 2 and a Voodoo doll), a ton of damage, and a few other bonuses (well... mainly bypassing Frame shenanigans).

2. Take her new upgrade. Being able to get your Nekima to charge for ONE of Z's ap, and then still have a full activation left is not too shabby. Forcing your opponents Big Scary Beater to charge into their own crew is even better. And at cast 7 vs Willpower, with you only needing to tie, it's pretty much a guarantee. Even without that, using 2-3 AP to move 2-3 enemy models out of position can really screw your opponents' plans.

3. Past that, take what you want? She's a very generic master and mostly just helps your crew just do better what they were going to do anyways. General Neverborn goodstuff is made better thanks to the AP control (or improved card selection via Bewitch).

Thanks for sharing this. I guess Obey twice to move nekima then charge, then hit someone else for 3 times more does sound crazy. Maybe I will give Zorida a go soon 

10 hours ago, Luca 2.0 said:

so basically the tipical lilith list! i was hoping in something untipical never seen! :) anyway thx for posting the list! even if now i would probably think about cyclops! istead of nekima/teddy! maybe 2!

Yeah, it is both amazing and sad that people are still playting the same list over and over again! I mean, 3 years now, people should have figure out how to exploit the weakness of such list but no...the list is just that powerful. 

 

I tried Serena Bowman(proxy) for Johan and gave Wraped Reality to Doppleganger and give The Song of Blood to Lilith for a couple of time. Doppleganger with advanced deployment and being able to be healed is cool, but I did miss Johan's attacking power and 2 more stones XD So I will defeintly try this out more often.

 

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Serena Bowman is awesome with Lilith. 

Giving your Mature Nephilim 'from the shadows' and starting him 6" away from your enemy deployment is going to be very scary for them. Have a few tomes in hand for charge through triggers and you'll be wrecking their crew before they can do anything. Then once he's finished just tangle shadows him out the way and heal him up ready for another go! All while having Serena Bowman cast Black Blood Tendrils through the Mature Neph while she's hiding behind terrain.

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This Greg list has me intrigued. Has no one been able to stop that? Seems brutal with Zoraida setting up three charges turn 2, 6 attacks in a row and leaving your opponent partly out of position could be devastating. Not sure how it works with Lilith, she isn't granting many ap to her models so wouldn't it be out-maneuvered? Or am I missing something obvious here?

I haven't faced neverborn in ages, the only one playing them at my club is me and I don't own Nekima or the effigy.

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19 hours ago, Ludvig said:

This Greg list has me intrigued. Has no one been able to stop that? Seems brutal with Zoraida setting up three charges turn 2, 6 attacks in a row and leaving your opponent partly out of position could be devastating. Not sure how it works with Lilith, she isn't granting many ap to her models so wouldn't it be out-maneuvered? Or am I missing something obvious here?

I haven't faced neverborn in ages, the only one playing them at my club is me and I don't own Nekima or the effigy.

Greg's list is like....General good stuff.list I guess? but the list is very flexible in terms of what it can do. It has a great killer (Nekima), a great tanker (Graves), jack of all trade who can do interactions (Dopp.) and a fast runner who can break into enemy half fast (Terror tot)....and Lilith's Tangle shadow is just great at contorlling the board. There are a lot of killbox set-up models (like lure example), but no one does it better than lilith, so if an enemy model is problematic, you can just tangle shadow it to bring it into lilith's house and just kill it. And sometimes, rooting an enemy big model is just as effective as killing it, so lilith can control the board that way.

 

I certainly don't think the list is invincible. Some people did figure out how to play around it and beat it. But nonetheless it is a very optimized, strong list and frankly, I don't think Neverborn has been recived any good models that can substitute that 7 models. Despite some talk about how it is the worst 13 ss model in the game, Nekima is still the best (and efficient) beater we got and Graves is the best tank/pusher we have. I think Serena Could be a better Johan, but the time will tell ;)

 

 

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Off the Greg List discussion, but I think Titania will be up there... Especially with Pact with the Grave Spirit.

That :aura3 no heal, no Soulstones, is just brutal for a lot of models.  She's also amazing against Leaders now, min3 on both her attacks is so much better.  She still struggles to put a dent in other targets, but I guess that's what the crew's for!  She still tanks reasonably well too.  I've been running the Emissary to give her armour has really helped  in that regard too!

She also got some amazing new models in the Cyclops and Bultungin.

Hail to the Queen!

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My Graves always dies really fast so I haven't seen this tanky side of him. I can imagine that target priority gets tricky since almost every model is a huge threat in that list. The doppleganger or Johan is probably the model that needs to die first. 

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On 1/11/2017 at 11:04 AM, Ludvig said:

Haha, sounds nasty @feagaur! It does put a lot of pressure on initiative turn one so even with a doppleganger you could be looking at a nailbiter of a first activation. I think it might require setting up second to create favourable matchups for the nephilim as well?

yes a lot of pression but depends about the enemy... you can still waste your points for nothing most of the time! i'm not a super fan of serena browman i don't think she is so strong for 7 points!

On 1/11/2017 at 11:42 AM, Ludvig said:

This Greg list has me intrigued. Has no one been able to stop that? Seems brutal with Zoraida setting up three charges turn 2, 6 attacks in a row and leaving your opponent partly out of position could be devastating. Not sure how it works with Lilith, she isn't granting many ap to her models so wouldn't it be out-maneuvered? Or am I missing something obvious here?

I haven't faced neverborn in ages, the only one playing them at my club is me and I don't own Nekima or the effigy.

I don't understand why everyone is so shocked about this list! you can beat it in a lot of ways! it's all about positioning. A strong list but you have to know how to play in any case! btw even if this was created by greg like you said! i didn't know that and i still play the same list or basically something similar. it's an abvius list!

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1 hour ago, Mununkulus said:

She hasn't been officially released though, has she ?

The model isn't released yet but you can use the book and a proxy (as longs as its game legal and your opponent is happy with it).

Plus theirs Vassal. Always a great way to practice with models you don't yet own. ( I say yet as you will own them all one day! as will we all!!!!)

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On 10/30/2017 at 8:41 PM, Sanik said:

Thanks for sharing this. I guess Obey twice to move nekima then charge, then hit someone else for 3 times more does sound crazy. Maybe I will give Zorida a go soon 

Yeah, not to mention the other Zoraida shenanigans you can do to make it even more painful, such as hiring a Nurse and Papa Loco...giving your Obedient Nekima Hold This and the Nurse's Hallucinogens trigger (+2 dmg to Ml actions, but they can only declare Ml actions) is pretty disgusting. And remember, though Nekima now cannot walk all you have to do is Hem her so you can push her twice and then Obey her to charge something (careful Obey is only 12" range though). Heck even take Wicked Doll to give her Brand New Strings. Pretty much just load Nekima up with buffs and chuck her a whatever you want to die. People will suspect you are doing the Poison bomb stuff when you bring the Nurse, probably will not expect a Nekima with a 6/7/8 dmg track Turn 1 or 2...

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4 minutes ago, exliontamer said:

Yeah, not to mention the other Zoraida shenanigans you can do to make it even more painful, such as hiring a Nurse and Papa Loco...giving your Obedient Nekima Hold This and the Nurse's Hallucinogens trigger (+2 dmg to Ml actions, but they can only declare Ml actions) is pretty disgusting. And remember, though Nekima now cannot walk all you have to do is Hem her so you can push her twice and then Obey her to charge something (careful Obey is only 12" range though). Heck even take Wicked Doll to give her Brand New Strings. Pretty much just load Nekima up with buffs and chuck her a whatever you want to die. People will suspect you are doing the Poison bomb stuff when you bring the Nurse, probably will not expect a Nekima with a 6/7/8 dmg track Turn 1 or 2...

Nekima can't declare a charge if you have given her the +2 damage, so you will need to get her into range

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6 hours ago, Luca 2.0 said:

yes a lot of pression but depends about the enemy... you can still waste your points for nothing most of the time! i'm not a super fan of serena browman i don't think she is so strong for 7 points!

Yeah, I'm not a fan of relying on initiative and needing to set up second either. It's ridiculously easy to stop that neph with a nurse or something.

6 hours ago, Luca 2.0 said:

I don't understand why everyone is so shocked about this list! you can beat it in a lot of ways! it's all about positioning. A strong list but you have to know how to play in any case! btw even if this was created by greg like you said! i didn't know that and i still play the same list or basically something similar. it's an abvius list!

Yeah, that it is so obvious is what had me questioning why people weren't coping. I'm not really surprised that multiple people used similar lists, it's just easier to call it Greg's list since everyone knows what we are referring to. 

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Nekima can't declare a charge if you have given her the +2 damage, so you will need to get her into range

Oh ffs I managed to miss that...hahaha. Good call. Well it's still a strongish combo when you are already engaged...Nurse's Accomplice + 8" cast range of Take Your Meds would let her stay relatively safe while turning Nekima into a (more) disgusting Melee monster that gets to activate immediately and murder something. And if she kills what she's engaged with Zoraida can push her once or twice and then command her to murder again, hopefully into engagement range of some other hapless model with 6 or less wounds... (although at this point you don't need the fancy new upgrade and taking Papa is probably not a bright idea...he'd probably have to stand way too close to your crew. still good to obey a sober Nekima to charge though. I'd do that all day long.)

 

Although honestly (as an aside) they should really clean that wording up, as the Nurse's condition says "may only declare" but Obey is worded "performs"...seems like they should only use one of those terms across all conditions/abilities/etc. Because Obey also says "chosen and controlled by this model's controller"...which again with the declare thing could cause arguments to arise about choosing vs declaring. Although I think it's pretty clear in the rules that the first step of "performing" an Action is to declare it...it would be nice to always reference the same verb to avoid confusion. /rant

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