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They’re good in the right build, especially in something like Collect the Bounty as they’re minions they wouldn’t give up as much points as their usual equivalents like frank with wade in or Phiona with transparency which cost the same as a thrall.  Unless I was going for specific Witch Hunter synergy for disrupt magic or in bounty I wouldn’t usually use them outside McCabe or Nellie, as they’re so much better with extra ap/reactivate.

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4 hours ago, Ludvig said:

They're 9 stones actually...

They shut down casts if you have the with hunter upgrade and they hit hard and are decently survivable. They have less synergy with Sonnia than Lucius or McCabe but not sure they are bad for her. They kind of compete with other expensive beaters though. Why just them and rougarou? There are plenty of models that are expensive but worth it, the peacekeeper is 11ss, Yasinoriis 13 I think yet people take it in every list.

I guess even more so at 9 stones, when I look at a model that costs that much I expect henchmen level abilities so it's tough when they are only a minion. I'm not saying they are bad models, just that if I'm gonna pay for something that expensive I prefer the protection and abilities of a henchmen as well as the ability to take upgrades. 

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@ConfuciuSay

The only thing henchmen get are upgrades and soulstones. An expensive minion can have juat as strong abilities as a hench, that has more to do with pricethan station. In some pools it's even better to be a minion than a hench. If you have several stone hungry models you might not have stones to use.

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1 hour ago, Ludvig said:

@ConfuciuSay

The only thing henchmen get are upgrades and soulstones. An expensive minion can have juat as strong abilities as a hench, that has more to do with pricethan station. In some pools it's even better to be a minion than a hench. If you have several stone hungry models you might not have stones to use.

All very true, though access to upgrades and stones is a huge bonus in my opinion. I see the benefits of taking a n expensive minion in Collect the Bounty, but outside of that unless I'm taking a master that specifically buffs minions I dont see the benefit of paying that much for one. Maybe thats my playstyle, and maybe I just haven't run the right lists to utilize those expensive minions.

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21 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

All very true, though access to upgrades and stones is a huge bonus in my opinion. I see the benefits of taking a n expensive minion in Collect the Bounty, but outside of that unless I'm taking a master that specifically buffs minions I dont see the benefit of paying that much for one. Maybe thats my playstyle, and maybe I just haven't run the right lists to utilize those expensive minions.

I agree that them being minions is mostly good for minion buffers.

If that mark hench/master condition is in the pool you might prefer them over a killy henchman since Sonnia herself can usually stay back to deny it. There is some synergy with handlers who I believe can push a friendly minion and as 4thstringer said they can buff enemy willpower so Sonnia gets a :+fate when she attacks. It's also nice if hunting party is in the pool since they're somewhat survivable so you could skip the squishy minions and take a thrall to try and deny that.

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On 29/10/2017 at 3:32 PM, Tris said:

So, what upgrades is Sonnia then using in your builds?

I usually don't find I max out on slots with her specific upgrades in general.

I use counterspell and imprint all the time. Apart from those I usually like reincarnation if I'm running only Sonnia from the witch hunter theme. I'm not a big fan of Handlers so I frequently take disrupt magic on Sonnia herself. Just having one or two thralls and/or a stalker to gum up the worst enemy casters can be huge. 

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So let's say you're at a tournament, and looking at all the tables they all seem to have a good amount of LoS blocking terrain, a fair amount of severe, and a good helping of scatter. What's a scenario that you would choose to drop Sonnia? Is it strat/scheme based? Is it dependent on your oppenents faction? Let's assume you have access to every model in Guild.

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Any table where I can completely block some avenues of approach with flame walls makes her a strong consideration.

I tend to take her over others in interference. 

I'm less likely to take her against arcanists because of armour but like her against ressers and neverborn because of the high likelyhood of lures + wp tricks and generally low likelyhood of armour. The pool and board is a bigger consideration than opposing faction though, counterbuilsing is risky unless you know they have a fixed list.

 

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I'd agree there.  Play denial Sonnia, use the flame walls to force the opponent to come where you want them to, or just cut them off altogether and use positioned watchers to shoot other targets.

Geberally a No go against arcanist too, I'd favour Nellie, McMourning or Mccabe there just off a faction choice. S&S would ultimately determine who I'd take.

I'm finding I take Nellie over her in interference thesedays. Out activating then manipulating where they opponent is with Nellie, Dade and Reporters.  Unless I'm playing Ressers, Gremlins or Outcasts when she comes back in to counter the swarm.

 

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I'd be hesitant to take her against Outcasts with the possibility of Von Schill showing up, plus my meta has been running Misaki in outcasts with a bunch of Friekorps models. I definitely see the benefits of taking her against neverborn having been a purple player for all of my 2nd edition experience. Are there any other masters that Sonnia just hates to face?

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29 minutes ago, ConfuciuSay said:

Are there any other masters that Sonnia just hates to face?

It is all based on strategy and schemes.
Zipp is generaly very strong opponent, Dita can be very annoying, Hamelin with Nix can be unpleasant option. Leveticus is a terrible opponent by default.

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1 hour ago, ConfuciuSay said:

I'd be hesitant to take her against Outcasts with the possibility of Von Schill showing up, plus my meta has been running Misaki in outcasts with a bunch of Friekorps models. I definitely see the benefits of taking her against neverborn having been a purple player for all of my 2nd edition experience. Are there any other masters that Sonnia just hates to face?

I’m my meta I never see any freikorps bar trappers and the librarian.  Don’t even see Hannah that often.  Though someone is looking at him for 2018 so might see have to take them into account them.

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The freikorps have been so rare that I never needed to conaider them. If they do show up she can fall back on her strong denial game and just do damage and accept that the blasts aren't doing much.

I think she is actually a brilliant counter to both Hamelin and Leveticus since she is a nightmare for Levi's waifs and Hamelin's rats. If Nix is there you either attack something outside the bubble or start by taking Nix down which isn't too hard. Plenty of their tricks are Ca based as well so disrupt magic often comes in handy.

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35 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

she is actually a brilliant counter to  Leveticus

I explain what problem do I have in Sonnia vs Levi matchup.
1st turn 

go to roster for Levi:
50 SS Outcasts Crew
Leveticus + 2 Pool
- Pariah of Iron (1)
- Desolate Soul (2)
Hollow Waif (0)
Hollow Waif (0)
Rusty Alyce (10)
Ashes and Dust (13)
Arcane Effigy (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Mobile Toolkit (3)

Sonnia having between 8 and 10 activations.
All crazy stuff for levi starts between 13th and 15th activation. If u dont kill one of abominations turn 1- you can just watch your guys getting rekt and becomming aboms. 30-40 def tests in first turn also. If Sonnia can survive this- then yes everything is fine. 

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8 minutes ago, FinalForm said:

I explain what problem do I have in Sonnia vs Levi matchup.
1st turn 

go to roster for Levi:
50 SS Outcasts Crew
Leveticus + 2 Pool
- Pariah of Iron (1)
- Desolate Soul (2)
Hollow Waif (0)
Hollow Waif (0)
Rusty Alyce (10)
Ashes and Dust (13)
Arcane Effigy (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Mobile Toolkit (3)

Sonnia having between 8 and 10 activations.
All crazy stuff for levi starts between 13th and 15th activation. If u dont kill one of abom turn 1- you can just watch your guys getting rekt and becomming aboms. 30-40 def tests in first turn also. If Sonnia can survive this- then yes everything is fine. 

I see lots of dead abominations turn 1 Sonnia will almost certainly kill them all in 1 attack if you've been injuring them to draw cards. Unless you have deployend your entire force on your back line, or there is a huge amount of LOS blocking terrain, and even then, she has a chance to kill you all. 

I personally think Sonnia is a good match for Perdita. Perdita is weak to indirect damage, which sonnia very easily applies. 

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44 minutes ago, FinalForm said:

I explain what problem do I have in Sonnia vs Levi matchup.
1st turn 

go to roster for Levi:
50 SS Outcasts Crew
Leveticus + 2 Pool
- Pariah of Iron (1)
- Desolate Soul (2)
Hollow Waif (0)
Hollow Waif (0)
Rusty Alyce (10)
Ashes and Dust (13)
Arcane Effigy (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Abomination (4)
Mobile Toolkit (3)

Sonnia having between 8 and 10 activations.
All crazy stuff for levi starts between 13th and 15th activation. If u dont kill one of abominations turn 1- you can just watch your guys getting rekt and becomming aboms. 30-40 def tests in first turn also. If Sonnia can survive this- then yes everything is fine. 

I've never seen a Levi list like this. I'm not saying it's a bad one, but those aboms look like easy platforms to blast off of, and if you can remove the waifs Levi's mobility goes way down. I'd have to see it in action, but just at a glance that list doesn't scare me.

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1 hour ago, Adran said:

Your entire force on your back line, or there is a huge amount of LOS blocking terrain, and even then, she has a chance to kill you all. 

Every board must have some LOS blocks and placing forces on backline is valid strategy if you can alphastrike.
You can place entire army behind some rocks/houses.
Then you just spending 3 waifs+ 3 aboms move and bite A&D+1 abom move and form the desol. Then Effigy discards slow, then alyce gives reactivate to desol and toolkit. Then toolkit gives +/+. At this point turn of Sonnia is 100% over. And only then first model comes from that house/rocks.
This is also an answer to @ConfuciuSay

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I've never seen a Levi list like that one but the aboms look like easy targets for Sonnia if she can get to them.

If that's too risky I would probably concentrate on building a flame castle and keeping my crew safe early game before picking off the waifs and trying to get some schemes done.

Your threat ranges don't look that scary, Levi can push up to A&D if you're confident enough to not want to create a backup waif but te rest of the list is snail paced?

Edit: cleared up on how you get those activations. Still mostly slow models? Is there anything threatening besides the engine slogging 10 + 10 to make a single attack?

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3 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I've never seen a Levi list like that one but the aboms look like easy targets for Sonnia if she can get to them.

I would absolutely love to show this list to you guys, but I'm living in Russia. So only in form of battle-report.
I've played this list 3 times and only one time on tournament. This is an alpha-strike list that creates new aboms via desolating your enemies. I have an amazing expirience activating desol 4 times turn 1. And that is where all this sweet activations coming from)

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3 minutes ago, FinalForm said:

I would absolutely love to show this list to you guys, but I'm living in Russia. So only in form of battle-report.
I've played this list 3 times and only one time on tournament. This is an alpha-strike list that creates new aboms via desolating your enemies.

 

I don't have the piece of mind for vassal at the moment but I might take you up on that this spring if you play by vassal. Depending on which part of Russia you're in the time difference might not be too bad.

3 minutes ago, FinalForm said:

I have an amazing expirience activating desol 4 times turn 1. And that is where all this sweet activations coming from)

I'm going to go ahead and declare that is literally impossible.

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17 minutes ago, Ludvig said:

I'm going to go ahead and declare that is literally impossible.

activation+reactivation
2 aboms created via levis trigger, one by desol's trigger. one abom bites 1hp desol, 2 aboms atacks then 4th of them turns into desol. Now we have third activation on desol and one abom. Desol summons one more abomination via trigger. One abom bites desol, 2 activations after last abom forms desol. Now forth activation of desolation engine begins. In some universe you can do it 5-6 times.

Prove me wrong.

I'm in the middle part of Russia GMT +5
I've never played Vassal before, but this might be an interesting option)

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Byt my entire crew is chilling behind flame walls and terrain so you're not going to be attacking a Sonnia crew turn one. Levi might get an attack or two on something and create a single abom if he bounced up 10" by saccing A&D but the desolation engine shouldn't get to attack this crew turn 1. You also need suits on every one of those attacks to get to summon and you are relying on killing something with every attack they make? Weak 3 is very rarely enough to kill something so the desolation engine needs to hit twice, the final attack also turning up with a crow on your winning attack flip. Levi is meanwhile burning stones and hitting and getting enough damage to kill two models? This is against a Sonnia crew so she has removed your suits with Counterspell aura so you are now looking at three duels succeeding with crow cards and they all need to hit models which die to a single attack from Levi so they need to be four wounds or less. It sounds like you opponents weren't being very cautious and you had a perfect storm. Was any of this against Sonnia?

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3 hours ago, Ludvig said:

Byt my entire crew is chilling behind flame walls and terrain so you're not going to be attacking a Sonnia crew turn one. 

Yes what you are saying is absolutely legit. Core idea of this list is your opponent do not know wtf is happening early turn one. And then he regrets it. Of course if you know what is happening- you can easily counter it by sniping one of aboms or just locking yourself from potential threat. 

About summoning stuff: there are an enourmous amount of def duels during this alpha strike and there will be some enemy models with 1-3 hp when the time is right)  Also note that desol can get fast from core and for 2 activations it has +/+ so you can dish out some nice crows) You have some cards from biting your own models, while enemy does not have any.
On tourn I was playing vs Ramos. On regular games i was playing against Sandeep and mcCabe. 

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15 hours ago, FinalForm said:

Every board must have some LOS blocks and placing forces on backline is valid strategy if you can alphastrike.
You can place entire army behind some rocks/houses.
Then you just spending 3 waifs+ 3 aboms move and bite A&D+1 abom move and form the desol. Then Effigy discards slow, then alyce gives reactivate to desol and toolkit. Then toolkit gives +/+. At this point turn of Sonnia is 100% over. And only then first model comes from that house/rocks.
This is also an answer to @ConfuciuSay

Sonnia can easily hit models at about 30" from where she starts. Her blast placement rules mean that its very hard to have several of your models close enough to each other to do the card draw and reformation, and be safe from her. Most of the time I have faced Sonnia she has some way of getting one of her own burning models far enough up the board that she can use it as a blasting off point to hit the enemy crew if they are all hiding away. 

So yes Its a tactic that you can use and it will catch people out that aren't expecting it. But Its fairly signposted at deployment if you hide everythign away. And likewise, it doesn't have that long a threat range if you are having to hide everything away. 

I'm nit going to say its impossible to get 4 desolation activations, but very unlikely (you have to kill the desolation engine twice yourself and for the rest of the crew that don't deal a huge amount of damage, you will have had to have had a very badly hurt desolation engine survive an opponents turn before it gets to activate. I would be very surprised if you ever manage to get a 5th activation in a turn, it just needs too much to happen. 

 I'm a big fan of the desolation engine, and like to look at ways to abuse it, and whilst this is potentuially a nice route, its pretty reliant on the surprise against several masters.

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