50ss Dreamer

[Obeisance]

So first ever attempt at a Neverborn list.

There's a tourney in a month and I'm looking at hopping over to Neverborn. Probably just run the one list and try to paint it up.

Strats haven't been released yet, this is kind of a shopping list.

Dreamer, Sleep Cycles, Growing Up

3 Daydreams

Teddy

Lilu and Liitu

Stitched Together

2 Insideous Madness

10 activations, 3 cache, 50ss.

Tell me my list is terrible and fix it. Lol.

Going to my LGS after work.

 

[WWHSD]

46 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Tell me my list is terrible and fix it. 

Your list is terrible.

Fix it.

[Obeisance]

Fair. 

[Obeisance]

I should probably be more specific. Are there any other models I should consider for Dreamer?

Madness for scheme running. 

Stitched because they are cool and do good damage.

I just heard the twins were good in general.

Daydreams... because they come in the box, get an attack from his upgrade and give me some activation control.

Teddy is just a beater.

Is summoning Dreamer just flat out better?

 

[esqulax]

Can't really tell you whether or not the list is good without knowing the schemes and strats. Same goes for summoning dreamer vs chompy dreamer. If the strat is Interference, then I would definitely need to hear some very good arguments to be convinced summoning dreamer isn't just better


It looks good for a shopping list though, the only things I would add would be a doppelganger (this is Neverborn after all) and a Widow weaver (I personally really like this gal and particularly with dreamer) 

[whodares]

58 minutes ago, esqulax said:

Can't really tell you whether or not the list is good without knowing the schemes and strats. Same goes for summoning dreamer vs chompy dreamer. If the strat is Interference, then I would definitely need to hear some very good arguments to be convinced summoning dreamer isn't just better


It looks good for a shopping list though, the only things I would add would be a doppelganger (this is Neverborn after all) and a Widow weaver (I personally really like this gal and particularly with dreamer) 

I'm seconding the Widow Weaver. You're taking Teddy who has TN13 Horror duel. Your opponent probably has 5 wp, so he needs an 8. He's standing on 2 Web Markers, which cut his WP by 2. He now needs a 10 just to be able to attack Teddy. Add in Daydreams or Insidious Madness bullets and he'll be on 0 wp soon enough

I mostly take Widow Weaver just for the webs and the rest is just extra power. That's how high I rate her webs when you have a crew that can abuse WP duels.

[MrBrasidas045]

On 10/13/2017 at 12:19 PM, whodares said:

I'm seconding the Widow Weaver. You're taking Teddy who has TN13 Horror duel. Your opponent probably has 5 wp, so he needs an 8. He's standing on 2 Web Markers, which cut his WP by 2. He now needs a 10 just to be able to attack Teddy. Add in Daydreams or Insidious Madness bullets and he'll be on 0 wp soon enough

I mostly take Widow Weaver just for the webs and the rest is just extra power. That's how high I rate her webs when you have a crew that can abuse WP duels.

I will agree with you Whodares but in this specific list, what will you remove to add Widow Weaver ?

 

[(Keenan)]

Not Whodares, obviously, but I'd look at removing Lelu and Stitched.  If you're trying to fit in Weaver you're looking at abusing WP.  And you've got beaters and damage dealers in spades. Er, Crows.  I've never once had Lelu do anything useful so I'm biased.  Stitched has been hit and miss, and often is just the best option to summon or to hire for the cost, so I try to make it work.  I've also really like using Primordial Magic to start and summoning Daydreams lately after getting a VP off Primordial for whatever strategy is there, obviously situational, but rush of magic is pretty legit.  Just my experience with casual games in a limited number so take it for what it is.  But if you're looking at jumping into Neverborn I'd look at getting the PM.  And definitely doppel.  Never leave home without it.

[whodares]

9 hours ago, MrBrasidas045 said:

I will agree with you Whodares but in this specific list, what will you remove to add Widow Weaver ?

 

2 hours ago, (Keenan) said:

Not Whodares, obviously, but I'd look at removing Lelu and Stitched.  If you're trying to fit in Weaver you're looking at abusing WP.  And you've got beaters and damage dealers in spades. Er, Crows.  I've never once had Lelu do anything useful so I'm biased.  Stitched has been hit and miss, and often is just the best option to summon or to hire for the cost, so I try to make it work.  I've also really like using Primordial Magic to start and summoning Daydreams lately after getting a VP off Primordial for whatever strategy is there, obviously situational, but rush of magic is pretty legit.  Just my experience with casual games in a limited number so take it for what it is.  But if you're looking at jumping into Neverborn I'd look at getting the PM.  And definitely doppel.  Never leave home without it.

Pretty hard question tbh, because you usually tailor lists depending on the strat and schemes. But on we go!

I'm following @(Keenan) and removing the Stitched Together. There are lists that can abuse it, but your name is not Lynch and that's quite a bit deal for these guys! 6 stones for this guy doesn't feel good when you already have a card-hungry crew, which means you'll have to throw high cards away or focus to get stuff done. Even then he can still hit himself and cause damage to your crew if he's in the middle of your own crew. Not recommended in this crew, unless you have some hidden strategy I can't see.

I'd also follow you on removing the Daydreams and getting the Primordial Magic. Daydreams are less important for the bruiser-styled Dreamer and getting Rush of Magic means you can cycle a bad card out of your deck, which means you have some sort of card advantage right out of the box!

This means you already have the 8 stones you need for the Weaver, so you can take some upgrades on your other models. Giving Teddy A Thousand faces can be really good so he can be anti-armor in case of need (Retribution's Eye), heal more (Malifaux Provides) or get more annoying to hit (The Mimics Blessing) which is great. you can also take Fears Given Form (start with A Thousand Faces) on the Widow Weaver and combine her up with Teddy on a flank. Not recommended, but viable and a layer of protection for the Weaver.

Why not viable? You already have Lelu and Lilitu together to hold a flank for you. Lelu gets +1 defense thanks to gis upgrade, which makes him finally worth a hire slot IF you combine him with Lilitu. Getting a 4" pounce on Lelu/Lilitu or getting + flips on all duels for both is very strong. Getting low on wounds? Lelu's Vampiric Bite can heal both models up really fast. Need tankiness? Lilitu's + flips on everything on def 6 WILL make your opponent cheat cards to get through.

Let me note that there are better options for a crew than any of the models you have mentioned here, but they have a lot less synergy with The Dreamer's other playstyles. I'm valuaing Dreamer synergy high for the OP s this is his first Neverborn list and some optimal options require buying a second crew box (Titania for her Knights is a supremely good choice).

An example would be to replace Lelu and Lilitu with the Tooth and Rougarou combo, which is a whole lot stronger. It does require the Titania box and Rougarou, while not having any possible buffs from Dreamer. No fast/heals/push/whatever which can come in clutch.

Another example would be the Obsidian Madness. Most of the time a Gupp can do what is needed from the Obsidian Madness, which is scheme running.

I'm also a fan of Nekima and try to find a spot for her in a lot of my lists, but there are reasons why you shouldn't get her this fast in Neverborn.

 

This is what I would change given that it's OP's first Neverborn list and I'm trying to max his Dreamer Synergy in case he decides to go for other styles such as Summoning or Shooting Dreamer later on.

[whodares]

9 hours ago, Lyros said:

Don't overlook Lelus Zero Upgrade gives him a free Card Cycle (and BB dmg). I tend to often hire him for that alone when playing dreamer.

Adding Widow weaver for her WP debuff while Kicking all daydreams (4" -1ep bubble) for pukesnake doesnt Sound that good for me

Puke Snake is really solid even if you only keep it 1-2 turns. It can help you get any scheme marker scheme while providing card cycle. Once you used it, you can then summon daydreams with Dreamer in case of need. Don't forget that also gives Waking, so it could be a safer route to get that last Waking you need to summon Chompy.

Beater Dreamer is less reliant on the -wp as he's not summoning in models that abuse it and he can always summon them in. As far as I know he doesn't need the mask either, so their main benefit would be free activations. While those are also strong, the card cycle from Pukey combined with the scheme marker stuff net it a slight win.

Do note that my own list looks rather different than what is described in this topic as I'm keeping it close to Dreamer to limit costs for different playstyles.

[whodares]

10 hours ago, Lyros said:

Primordial Magic isn't bad, but a summoned insidious madness gets 1 sceme marker down in turn Two just as reliable (even further, pukesnake isnt even able to reach the centerline in Standard or Corners...). All the while you miss out on ~2 4" pushs and an additional Mask if you need One every round

You can't summon Madness if you're playing Beater Dreamer. Keep in mind this thread is all about Beater Dreamer.

Does Beater Dreamer require the masks?

Pushes are great, but can they score you VP?

10 hours ago, Lyros said:

Doesnt matters how  much chompy dreamer likes his wp debuffs, my argument is: when you hire widow weaver mainly for her wp shenanigans, then turn it up to eleven, use your awesome daydreams too and don't waste 2ss for basically just 2 draw-discard effects and a mediocre sceme marker (which can be laid by almost everyone just as  good)

Daydreams are extremely squishy. If something even just looks at them, they pretty much die. In order to get their -wp debuff, they have to be close to the opponent. They won't last long like that.

Calling puke snake a waste of 2 stones for 2 draw-discard and a free scheme marker makes me wonder how good your understanding of the game actually is. The 2 draw/discard is worth a stone already and the scheme marker can get you a VP is used correctly. It's also harder to stop PM from getting that VP as he doesn't need to use an action to place down the marker. You can just double walk somewhere and count him IF YOU NEED TO. Another model might do a walk and drop a marker and then the opponent runs away (Dig Their Graves) or removes the marker somehow and you just wasted an action. Good old Pukey makes sure that something like that doesn't happen.

[Adran]

34 minutes ago, whodares said:

You can't summon Madness if you're playing Beater Dreamer. Keep in mind this thread is all about Beater Dreamer.

Does Beater Dreamer require the masks?

Pushes are great, but can they score you VP?

Daydreams are extremely squishy. If something even just looks at them, they pretty much die. In order to get their -wp debuff, they have to be close to the opponent. They won't last long like that.

Calling puke snake a waste of 2 stones for 2 draw-discard and a free scheme marker makes me wonder how good your understanding of the game actually is. The 2 draw/discard is worth a stone already and the scheme marker can get you a VP is used correctly. It's also harder to stop PM from getting that VP as he doesn't need to use an action to place down the marker. You can just double walk somewhere and count him IF YOU NEED TO. Another model might do a walk and drop a marker and then the opponent runs away (Dig Their Graves) or removes the marker somehow and you just wasted an action. Good old Pukey makes sure that something like that doesn't happen.

Depending on how you're doing it, Beater Dreamer can need masks. You want to get Chompy out, and summoning is the easiest way to get waking. You won't always need it. (and if you get day dreams you kill the magic anyway)

Yes Pushes can score you VP. A late turn quarter switch or push into turf war area can be the difference. Is that a more certain VP than a scheme marker? its hard to say. It has the potential to change VP more, but also other uses. 

 

The Magic is a serious consideration.though. It does force the crew into a more fixed playstyle. But saying that they can remove a scheme marker, but they can't kill primordial magic is fairly false. It does rely on duels but if something can reach a scheme marker and remove it, they have a fairly strong chance of killing the Magic in the same number of actions. (also I don't think you can use a puke worm to score dig their graves. He is only a Scheme marker when you want to score VP, at the time you kill the model you aren't scoring VP, so he isn't a scheme marker. But thats about the only time he can't count) 

[whodares]

46 minutes ago, Adran said:

Depending on how you're doing it, Beater Dreamer can need masks. You want to get Chompy out, and summoning is the easiest way to get waking. You won't always need it. (and if you get day dreams you kill the magic anyway)

Masks summon Alps, so that's only needed if you've hit the Daydream cap or want to summon an Alp specifically. I know they have their uses, but in general Beater Dreamer doesn't really need the Alps.

47 minutes ago, Adran said:

Yes Pushes can score you VP. A late turn quarter switch or push into turf war area can be the difference. Is that a more certain VP than a scheme marker? its hard to say. It has the potential to change VP more, but also other uses. 

I agree with you here. It's hard to tell the difference. I come from Ten Thunders, who are renowned for their pushing prowess. I switched to Neverborn because pushing is very situational and I find it a whole lot more situational worth than PM who is pretty much always worth it.

49 minutes ago, Adran said:

The Magic is a serious consideration.though. It does force the crew into a more fixed playstyle. But saying that they can remove a scheme marker, but they can't kill primordial magic is fairly false. It does rely on duels but if something can reach a scheme marker and remove it, they have a fairly strong chance of killing the Magic in the same number of actions. (also I don't think you can use a puke worm to score dig their graves. He is only a Scheme marker when you want to score VP, at the time you kill the model you aren't scoring VP, so he isn't a scheme marker. But thats about the only time he can't count) 

I support your way of looking at PM and DtG, but there have been voices that do allow PM to count for that. Depends on your local judge I guess?

Removing PM is also fairly easy, but it's harder to deny PM to count as the scheme marker than placing one of the floor. You can only remove PM by killing, burying, ... while there are plenty of actions that can remove scheme markers without an opposing duel. That was more the point I was trying to make, but I didn't explain it enough it seems.

[whodares]

35 minutes ago, Lyros said:

Yeah playing since first with nvb, winning my fair share at tournament, top 3 in my national ranking ... guess i dont really know anything about this game. 

Puke Snake isnt much more resistent then daydreams and you dont habe to kill him to deny most scemes. Standing nearby will do the job. He isnt bad at all, put he isnt worth it for 1-2 turns. 

I am out here. Play the Worm all day long as you wish, Good luck with it

Has 9 posts, has been playing for several years and claims winning tourneys and being top 3 on national ranking of ... ??? Let me just get a bag of salt with that grain of salt I already have.

I never claimed Pukey is more resilient than daydreams. He's a mobile scheme walker, so he shouldn't be getting in a killable position to begin with. Daydreams on the other hand aren't worth anything for this crew unless they can use their -wp aura, you somehow need 3-4 pushes that turn or you are desperate for activation control.

Not worth it for 1-2 turns? This forum has more than enough people that would disagree with you on that. 2 turns alone equals 1 stone of value, so you'd have an even better deal on him. Dreamer is also in a special position as he can summon his own totems. There's not too many masters that can do that. You can even argue that it would be better to do with Beater Dreamer as you can summon them right where they need to be and still get waking up. Meanwhile Pukey has been giving you Rush of Magic and a possible VP. But yeah, not worth it, right? ...

Standing nearby will deny his scheme marker stuff? Any reason why you can't just ... idk ... walk with the model? Assuming you didn't screw up your activation order ofcourse, but a TOP 3 NATIONAL PLAYER should be able to at least do that.

[Obeisance]

Single faction
2x 50ss fixed lists

Game 1
Deployment: Standard
Strategy: Recconnoiter
Schemes: Claim Jump, Accusation, Frame for Murder, Hidden Trap, Undercover Entourage

Game 2
Deployment: Corner
Strategy: Turf War
Schemes: Claim Jump, Dig Thier Graves, Accusation, Hunting Party, A Quick Murder

Game 3
Deployment: Flank
Strategy: Guard the Stash
Schemes: Claim Jump, Frame for Murder, Leave Your Mark, Search the Ruins, Covert Breakthrough

...

I hate Claim Jump.

Game 1

Recconiter wants you to spread out and not be near the center with lots of non-peons.
Frame requires a specific kill.
Hidden trap requires 3 schemes near an enemy.
Entourage requires a named model to make it to the enemy deploy zone.

Game 2

Turf War requires you to be central and brawly.
Dig needs a scheme and a kill.
Accusation needs you to keep enemy models alive, which I generally dislike.
Hunting Party needs Henchmen and Enforcers doing the killing.
Quick Murder needs you to kill the highest value target.

Game 3
Guard the stash requires you to be central-ish and brawly.
Frame requires a specific kill.
Leave your Mark removes schemes in the backfield.
Search the Ruins needs schemes center-board
Covert Breakthrough needs scheme markers back board at the end of the game.

...

So I could build two Dreamer lists; a brawly one and a summoning one. How does Neverborn do schemes, anyway?

[whodares]

52 minutes ago, Obeisance said:

Hidden trap requires 3 schemes near an enemy.

So I could build two Dreamer lists; a brawly one and a summoning one. How does Neverborn do schemes, anyway?

Just going to react on this on the top of my head. I'll look at some lists later to give you some guidelines. I'll make a seperate reply for it, unless this reply is still the last in the thread.

1. Hidden trap requires a scheme marker near an enemy unit. It does not specify that you need a different scheme marker for every enemy unit. Best case scenario would be 3 units next to 1 marker. I think you mixed it up a bit in how you read the description, unless Crewfaux made a mistake in the app which I'm using right now.

 

2. Could you list the models you have in your possession right now? Your first post mentions a shopping list, so I'm trying to cut costs a bit. If this is your first exploration of the Neverborn faction, summoning Dreamer might be a bit expensive to go for. When I bought my Dreamer, I paid around €150 to get the crew I wanted and most of his summoning options.

 

3. If you don't have any models yet or want to buy some good additional models, it would be great if you could let me know what direction you're taking your Neverborn. I have experience with several masters, but not all of them. I'll keep your future direction in mind when selecting additional models for puchase if you so choose.

[Obeisance]

I models I own?

Dreamer and Pandora crew

Stitched, Madness, Teddy, Iggy, Twins, Nekima.

Direction I'm taking? 

I have a month before the tournament and haven't played a game with Neverborn. Or this year. I could approach the pool as a Resser and know what I need to do.

I'm looking at picking one master for this month as I'll only be able to get a handful of games. Interested in Dreamer, Titania, Lillith and Pandora.

 

[whodares]

On 16-10-2017 at 3:34 PM, Obeisance said:

Single faction
2x 50ss fixed lists

Game 1
Deployment: Standard
Strategy: Recconnoiter
Schemes: Claim Jump, Accusation, Frame for Murder, Hidden Trap, Undercover Entourage

So I could build two Dreamer lists; a brawly one and a summoning one. How does Neverborn do schemes, anyway?

Tried my hand at a summoning Dreamer here because he shines here. The reason for this is due to outactivating your opponent and Reconnoiter is heavily skewed towards summoners.

 

I would take something like:

Dreamer  (6 soulstones)

• Dreams of Pain
• Otherworldly
• On Wings of Darkness

Daydream x3

Widow Weaver

• A Thousand faces
• Handbag

Teddy

• A Thousand Faces

Mysterious Emissary

• Conflux of Nightmares

 

My reasoning is rather simple. You start with 7 activations and all the schemes allow you to stay in the back of the map. Going forward is not encouraged at all! You barely have to move Dreamer, so he can spend all his AP on summoning on Turn 1. I suggest getting Lelu and Lilitu out. You'll probably sacrifice a Daydream for that, so you'll go up to 8 activations. If you decide to spend your third AP on resummoning the lost Daydream, you'll be on 9 AP.

The Emissary can also summon a changeling on a scheme marker, so you might want to do that too if the cards allow it. You can go up to 10 activations like this. He can also place down Hazardous Terrain, which is again bad news for your opponent as you will have Lilitu with a ca7 lure. 1/4/5 damage is no joke and can do major damage while giving a ton of zone control.

This is not risky at all unless the opponent has a crazy alpha strike lined up for you. You'll have to see that for yourself.

The Widow Weaver has Handbag in case you get a lot of corpse and scrap on the board so you can summon a second Teddy in. You can drop Handbag and replace it with another upgrade if you don't like it. It can be great, but it can also be worthless.

The 3 Dayrdreams are vital for a summoning Dreamer as they provide cheap activations while giving the push and you ABSOLUTELY NEED that sacrifice for a mask.

Now for the scheme selection.

You can do any scheme rather easily except for Undercover Entourage because you outactivative your opponent rather fast. FFM can work if he has a killing Henchman, but I think Accusation and Claim Jump will be better for you.

Placing scheme markers near the centerline is rather safe for you as you outactivate and can just wait with a significant model until your opponent can't do anything against it. You'll have a massive advantage due to being able to commit your entire force, while your opponent can't. He'll have to keep at least 2 models on his own parts or else he won't score for the Strategy, while you can just keep summoning in reinforcements.

If you summon 2 Insidious Madnesses on Turn 2, you'll be in a prime position for pretty much any scheme marker shenanigans starting from Turn 3. They have a pretty decent walk and a shot, so they can even threaten the models your opponent is keeping in the back.

Lelu and Lilitu are a killer combination if you can pair them up with the Emissary's Hazardous terrain and they can be rather annoying to take down due to shared healing, regen and Lelu's Vampiric Bite. If you had the money though, I'd have rather put in The Tooth and Rougarou though. That would mean you would have had a deathball already hired and on the flank while the summoned Lelu and Lilitu can be used to keep The Dreamer safe and add additional pressure to your opponent.

 

TL;DR The opponent has to come to you to deny schemes or score points, while you can stay in the back thanks to the 18" lure Lilitu gives you. I made a budget killer list to abuse the fact that he has to come to you.

 

Please provide feedback on what you think of this list and how you would change/improve it.

[crimzzen]

I'm looking at new beater dreamer with growing up and this is where I'm looking at starting with

Dreamer 3SS

• Growing Up
• Sleep Cycles

Daydream

Nekima

Mysterious Emissary

• Conflux of Nightmare

Mr. Graves

Doppleganger

Serena Bowman

 

With the plan turn 1 to be to walk dreamer once and summon 2 daydreams (waking 2) and summon a changeling with the emissary.  Hopefully bumping the activation count up to 10.  Then using that control to save dreamer for late in the turn with a push from graves to get in there and beat stuff up and bring out chompy.  Would love to find a point to fit thousand faces on Nekima but it's not gonna happen unless i sacrfice the daydream for it an a stone (actually might be worth it depending on the faction your up against).