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Yan Lo - minimal start


gribble

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I'm pondering picking up Yan Lo. I've read the tacticas I can find, and his playstyle really intrigues me.

I'd be looking at a somewhat competitive, but characterful (in terms of undead/spirits) crew. If I need to choose, character is more important than competitive (so no clockwork traps, wastrels, etc).

From what I've read, it seems like I will need:
Yan Lo box (duh)

Goryo

Seishin - not sure whether it would be better to pick up the Kirai or Datsue Ba box for these... I figure I won't need 3 - even with 2 Goryo - so the Kirai box is better value... but then if I do end up playing Yan Lo and Kirari in Resurrectionists, I'll want Datsue Ba anyway, right? Will I use Onryo when I have Goryo?

From there, other models I'm eyeing up are Shadow Emissary, Izamu, Toshiro and Charm Warders (once available - do we know the release date yet?). If I was only going to get 2 of these four, which would you recommend? I'm leaning towards Charm Warders and Toshiro for flavour, but it seems I will need a beater in my crews, so probably should include one of Emissary or Izamu?

Is there anything I'm missing that I really should pick up?

 

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1 minute ago, Mrbedlam said:

komaniu are pretty great. Toshiro is one of my favorites. Occasionally a punk zombie is worth it. 

I'm not a fan of Komaniu, but will consider them if they're much better than other options. What are their strong points in the crew (other than ability to be summoned by Toshiro)?
Punk zombies can only be played in Resurrectionists, correct? Also, they don't really fit with the Asian undead aesthetic I'd prefer. What do they bring to the table to make up for that?

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Punk Zombies can be played with Toshiro in the crew. Komaniu are tough for their points, discourage Ca actions and hit fairly hard for their point cost, plus they are basically "replaceable" thanks to Toshiro. Keep in mind, if you use Tosh, he makes minions better all around. 

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27 minutes ago, gribble said:

Goryo

Seishin - not sure whether it would be better to pick up the Kirai or Datsue Ba box for these... I figure I won't need 3 - even with 2 Goryo - so the Kirai box is better value... but then if I do end up playing Yan Lo and Kirari in Resurrectionists, I'll want Datsue Ba anyway, right? Will I use Onryo when I have Goryo?

From there, other models I'm eyeing up are Shadow Emissary, Izamu, Toshiro and Charm Warders (once available - do we know the release date yet?). If I was only going to get 2 of these four, which would you recommend? I'm leaning towards Charm Warders and Toshiro for flavour, but it seems I will need a beater in my crews, so probably should include one of Emissary or Izamu?

Is there anything I'm missing that I really should pick up?

 

Goryo at the moment looks like a very solid option. 
Onryo are very situational, however if you manage to combine them with Komainu and Izamu to spread Adversary condition they work well for their cost. 
Emissary is mandatory, and then you need to decide if you go for Toshiro or Izamu cost-wise. Let's say that Toshiro works miracles with Punk Zombies, and Izamu can combo with Komainu and Goryo/Onryo + Fury of Yomi to create a killing bomb ;)

 

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1 hour ago, Shafaar said:

Emissary is mandatory, and then you need to decide if you go for Toshiro or Izamu cost-wise. Let's say that Toshiro works miracles with Punk Zombies, and Izamu can combo with Komainu and Goryo/Onryo + Fury of Yomi to create a killing bomb ;)

To help me decide, is Toshiro enough of a beater instead of Izamu? Considering I'll be taking him alongside the Emissary? Or do I really need a second heavy hitter? How about if I'd rather use Ashigaru than Punk Zombies (even though the zombies might be better, I much prefer the Aesthetic of the Ashigaru, particularly given I won't have to buy another box of minis to use them) - then is it better to ignore Toshiro and go with Izamu (or maybe the Charm Warders) instead?

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23 minutes ago, gribble said:

To help me decide, is Toshiro enough of a beater instead of Izamu? Considering I'll be taking him alongside the Emissary? Or do I really need a second heavy hitter? How about if I'd rather use Ashigaru than Punk Zombies (even though the zombies might be better, I much prefer the Aesthetic of the Ashigaru, particularly given I won't have to buy another box of minis to use them) - then is it better to ignore Toshiro and go with Izamu (or maybe the Charm Warders) instead?

Punk Zombie close to Toshiro gets + attack flip and they have one + build in, and Toshiro can (0) Fast him, so positioned correctly with 2/4/5 dmg (and possible Flurry) he can always score a kill, placing marker that Toshiro can use to summon Ashigaru. I have total of 4 Ashigaru for summons, they are really underrated in my opinion, very solid models, they can catch in engage and hold for two or more turns most normal models and then you can summon them again... 

Problem with Izamu is that he is a killer with 3" engage and works like a magnet - your enemy usually will try to kill him asap and most likely do that as he is not so tough. From the other hand, yesterday Izamu + 2xKomainu + Sun Quiang creates an unkillable bubble in a middle of Nicodems' party ;)

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I don't really understand the miracle with Punk Zombies comment; its an extra :+fate on top of their innate :+fate

Post Wave 5 I don't think the Emissary is a mandatory pick for Yan as it once was. Glowly Mouth light is superior to Brutal Khakkara, and his new upgrades compete intensely with the originals meaning he won't have space to run them all. I think Reliquary could also be dropped meaning re-summoning Ancestors won't be happening (which is another benefit of the Emissary). 

As for the Tosh vs Izamu beater question: Neither are the best beaters in Thunders, but then you don't take these models to fulfil that role. Izamu is a Tarpit and engager, designed to trap models and whittle them down. Tosh is a Minion buffer and summoner, designed to grind down the opponent with summons (preferably made from opponents resources) and prevent Yan from getting out activated too much.

Of the choices you have  (since Charm Warders don't have a release date yet) I'd go for Toshiro and Izamu. I'd also buy or proxy Komainu as they are useful minions. 

 

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39 minutes ago, Kogan Style said:

Of the choices you have  (since Charm Warders don't have a release date yet) I'd go for Toshiro and Izamu. I'd also buy or proxy Komainu as they are useful minions. 

Are there other options you would look at instead of one (or both) of them?

Also, if neither Izamu nor Toshiro are a good beater - who in 10T fills that role?

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17 minutes ago, aquenaton said:

Toshiro lets you hire punk zombies, but, if you do not like their aesthetic, I should recommend taking only one, the one with the biggest pants. I chopped his hair off and now he looks like a perfect undead samurai.

Thanks for the tip - will look into that! :)

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15 minutes ago, Mrbedlam said:

Ten Thunders beaters are: Yasunori, Lone Swordsman, Crime Boss, Ototo.  

I'd consider Izamu a way better beater than Lone Swordsman, and specially, Ototo (I find Ototo so unappeling stats-wise, I'd take a LRM as a beater instead of him :P ). Besides, models as Kang or Mr Graves would also fit great as beaters.

In fact, I think the three best beaters in 10T are, in that order, Misaki (w/ SB), Yasunori and Izamu xD

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1 minute ago, Gennosuke said:

I'd consider Izamu a way better beater than Lone Swordsman, and specially, Ototo (I find Ototo so unappeling stats-wise, I'd take a LRM as a beater instead of him :P ). Besides, models as Kang or Mr Graves would also fit great as beaters.

In fact, I think the three best beaters in 10T are, in that order, Misaki (w/ SB), Yasunori and Izamu xD

Lone Swordsman is my go to beater in Shen crews. He doesn't stick around but he does the work you need him to do

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Not sure why you feel you need Goryo+Seishin. Not that they're bad, but if you're going for a budget-build there's much better things to buy, especially for things that serve any masters you'll get later on. "Shadow Emissary, Izamu, Toshiro and Charm Warders" is a great start, though I'd definitely try to get some Komainu too. Near Ancestors they get an automatic burning or slow, they have Ml6 as a 5 SS model, 40 MM base, very sturdy especially with healing... They're amazing models really, and Toshiro summons them to boot. In Izamu you'll have your amazing beatstick, can't imagine what someone is thinking in not considering him one of the best. The Emissary is your supporty pushbot, which all crews love, though if you're budgetting I could understand not getting it quite yet. It's the cost of a crewbox after all, and honestly not that special with Yan as his little totem loves to push the slower Ancestors, too. And Charm Warders are simply amazing models, especially with perma disguised Yan.

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I would question the Goryo right now myself. I've not had much luck with them so far. You might have better luck though. If you're playing Yan Lo strictly TTs then they are your only way to get Seishin I guess. Not that you need Seishin to get the Chi rolling.

Toshiro is not a beater really, though he can hold his own and take down smaller targets pretty well. His buffing minions and summoning is really good , if you like minions and can keep them within 6" of him. Not always easy depending on strat and schemes. I find that much like Izamu he often becomes target #1 for the enemy. He can be summoned back by Yan Lo as well, though he will lose his upgrades so get your summoning in early. 

Izamu is a decent beater, but will fold against anything that ignores armor. With TT's you have a lot of other good choices, especially with the new book. I'd even look at the Obsidian Statue for a similar role as Izamu, but with some slight range, LOS blocking, and creates scrap so Toshiro can summon Komainu. With Yan Lo you have the added option, with an upgrade, of being able to summon Izamu back. Nothing is more annoying for the opponent than killing a big target and having it reappear in the same turn. 

Komainu - underrated imo. They can take quite a beating before going out and their protective aura against Ca can really throw an opponent off if they have a lot of Ca attacks. 

Charm Warders look pretty good and fun, though have the models been released already? 

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29 minutes ago, Tokapondora said:

Not sure why you feel you need Goryo+Seishin.

 

14 minutes ago, Paddywhack said:

I would question the Goryo right now myself.

A few reasons.

First I really like the whole spirit vibe. Hence my question about Onryo - I was wondering if it was possible to put together a good "spirit based" crew for Yan Lo with these Goryo, Seishin and (maybe) Onryo.

Second, I really like the look of the models.

Third, from the tactica I've read, they (Seishin, requiring the Goryo) seem like the best bet to quickly power up Yan Lo with chi. Are there other options to do so that don't involve clockwork traps and wastrels? I'd much prefer Goryo and Seishin to those models in the crew, even if it means it's slightly less competitive.

And no, apparently Charm Warders have not been released, and don't even have a release date yet... :(

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Well, I'll be the first to say that if you like the model then get it. ;)

I haven't had much luck with them on the table yet myself, but your mileage may vary. The seishin is a nice trick, but cost 2dmg on model with only 7wds. So you either have to then also use one of Yan Lo's 0's to heal (which could still fail) or play with a wounded model from the get go. Then if you want another one turn 2 you are down 2 more wds. You can't risk pushing the Goryo up when he's that wounded. Then you have a 7SS model that is basically just giving you a seishin for the first turn or two and not doing much else for fear of getting offed early. If you opponent has any ranged Ca you really have to keep him safe. I also hate that their ranged attack to give Adversary is not built in and needs a suit. The range on it also doesn't make much sense as you could charge from further away and it a 1 not a 0. So even if you get it off and give the enemy Adversary so you can Charge for 1, you are still only getting your regular 2 attacks, which you could have done from further away and didn't need a suit and possibly a good card to do.

Any low Df model can potentially serve as Yan Lo's first turn target. Unless you take 2 Goryo you are only going to have one Seishin to attack on turn one, so that's only +1Chi. You can do the same thing by getting a Severe on a model and not killing it. Then, since you'd have to heal the Goryo anyway, use your heal on that model instead.

I think in TT's the best bet is the Wastrel (with east access to Defensive), but you could also do something like the Komainu. They have Df4 and Hard to Kill so you don't have to worry about killing him by accident, but have a good chance on getting the Severe if you have a good first turn of cards. Heck, you could shoot him twice if you have two severes and have him go defensive to choose low. His Hard to Kill will keep him alive and then you heal him back up again. You could also do similar with the Tengu which are pretty handy scheme runners as well and have Regen+1 to help heal back up again, though you couldn't hit them twice. 

In TT's it will be harder to go the Spirit route overall, but if you like the look of the Goryo then go for it. The Seishin trick does work for building Chi. If you go with Goryo then you might want to consider Onryo. They are not great and are very fragile, but give you another way to hand out Adversary so could pair well with Goryo  for 1ap charges as long as you know the Onryo will die fast. 

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Thanks! I have also heard there is a bit of a trick with the Charm Warders (supposedly), which will net you 2 chi - one for severe, and a second for the kill - and will give Yan Lo disguise for the game? Though that seems more like a bug that will probably get the errata stick than something to be relied on as a tactic I guess...

So it sounds like the advice is Izamu/Emissary, Toshiro and Komainu? Perhaps add Charm Warders as a first expansion, when available?

Probably not the best place to ask, but is a spirit based crew more viable in Ressers? I guess then I could add Datsue Ba at least... are there other good spirit options if Onryo and Goryo aren't that great?

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1 minute ago, gribble said:

Thanks! I have also heard there is a bit of a trick with the Charm Warders (supposedly), which will net you 2 chi - one for severe, and a second for the kill - and will give Yan Lo disguise for the game? Though that seems more like a bug that will probably get the errata stick than something to be relied on as a tactic I guess...

So it sounds like the advice is Izamu/Emissary, Toshiro and Komainu? Perhaps add Charm Warders as a first expansion, when available?

Probably not the best place to ask, but is a spirit based crew more viable in Ressers? I guess then I could add Datsue Ba at least... are there other good spirit options if Onryo and Goryo aren't that great?

Charm Warders aren't out either though I don't think? And I agree that that loophole will likely be closed at some point.

I would recommend Toshiro and Izamu (he matches your spirit wishes at least - though there are other good beaters in TT as discussed above). I like the Komainu, but not everyone does. If your group allows proxying maybe try them a couple games to see how you like them? Same for the Goryo if possible, especially if you have limited funds. Again - if you like the look of the Goryo then go for them. Just because I don't favor them doesn't mean they aren't good ;) 

Most people would argue that Yan Lo is a stronger master in TT's than in Resurrs overall. 

I would say yes, Resurrs have more Spirit options than TT's, but TT's offer a lot of other things too if you aren't tied to that theme. It is also possible, though not used often in my experience, for Yan Lo to turn any model into a spirit.

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If you're into the spirit theme and also want to go Kirai I'd suggest simply going Resser. I think Yan is better in TT but if going spirit TT doesn't hold a candle to Ressers.

 

Edit;

As for the Charm Warders, I don't know if it really needs to be fixed unless it proves to be broken. The Lotus Eaters effect was pointed out as lasting if it ever died during the open beta and that was kept as is. As it is now it's a nifty little trick that still costs you 5 SS. Seems fairenough-ish.

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18 hours ago, gribble said:

Thanks! I have also heard there is a bit of a trick with the Charm Warders (supposedly), which will net you 2 chi - one for severe, and a second for the kill - and will give Yan Lo disguise for the game? Though that seems more like a bug that will probably get the errata stick than something to be relied on as a tactic I guess...

If you start to see Yan Lo everywhere, winning games because of the trick, you might. But this was pointed out in beta and remains. If it is "fixed" (i'm not convinced it's broken tbh), it's still perfectly possible to have Yan disguised all game as it drops on activation and not the end of the turn. Finally, and again, assuming this is "fixed", and you don't kill the Charm Warder for Chi... congratulations, you still have a Charm Warder, and they're great.

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