Pandora Tactica

[ringsnake]

I put a fair amount of work into updating her profile on Pullmyfinger, but have not updated for the Wave 5 card. Someone has since gone in and gone crazy with bolding things, and modified stuff. It no longer reflects what I originally put there.

I've played several games with her now, and she's becoming my favorite master. Voices Pandora (my favorite version) is awesome for punishing opponents who take only a small handful of high SS cost uber powerful models. If your opponent hinges their entire game plan on a few high SS cost henchmen or enforcers you can slow and paralyze most of their crew for the whole game.

Her strengths are obvious. Strats and Schemes that involve putting a flag down in a small area and controlling it, and/or murdering the crap out of people are awesome with her. She's great at mucking up sequences of actions, so she can bollix stuff like summon lists that require a sequence of two of three models to do their thing. You paralyze/murder the slop haulers, and thence ruin Ulix's or Somer's day for example. I've had zombies get summoned with half their wounds, attack, blow their horror duel, and disintegrate to misery right away. Once you get used to her odd play style, she's quite simple. I usually end up doing the same things every turn with her: Walk and/or Incite to move around, discard a crow card to add crows to flips, and then paralyze/slow up to three models (I almost always use Voices)

I've noticed a handful of disadvantages and problems with her:

1. The rules interactions with Tara and her crew are awful. The best solution is to hit people who use Tara until they stop. Even Tara players don't know all of Tara's rules and interactions. It doesn't help that Pandy is one of Neverborn's best masters for doing to the Tara players what they're used to doing to everyone else. You're almost obliged to play a game where the rules interactions will cause headaches.

2. She's like a cockroach, hard to hit, and scurries away when the lights come on, but if you get a solid whack or two on her, she's toast. No condition removal, and if your opponent manages to knock down her WP or remove her ability to push she's toast.

3. She and most of her crew builds target Wp all day every day, and some crews will have a good laugh at you for that. Pandy herself with her Ca7 has no real problems there, but her crew has much lower attack values, so you need to pile on WP penalties. Widow Weaver ferex, or I guess build a crew of fast terror causing hitters backed with WP reduction. I haven't tried that yet. I see some potential with Tooth and Thorn.

4. A clever opponent just spreads out and focuses on the mission. They will make the mistake of bunching up for Pandy and a pack of Sorrows only once. In a typical crew with good synergy, the models that work best with her have low or no Wk and Cg values. Pandy can move fast, but she'll often be on her own.

5. She's a lot worse at schemes that involve dropping conditions on enemy models, and then keeping them alive with that condition on them, because as I read it, Misery is mandatory. You cannot choose to not inflict the damage, and all your attacks are WP based. So you put a scheme condition on a model, and then paralyze or slow it, and it drops dead. Your utility models like Sorrows and Will O Wisps work against you in scheme pools full of stuff like that, because they don't have a lot of offensive oomph, so your opponent can drop conditions on them, and then ignore them.

[TeddyBear]

Worst strategy for Pandora is Reconnoitter/interf.

How do you play this strat. with her? (Or do yo use directly, Dreamer??)

[spikes]

@ringsnake Hey man, great work in doing up the PMF post! That's certainly an option for everyone to check out! Thanks for adding on to this post as well, I'll digest them later when I have a bit more time. Between work and Iron Painter, I'm a little swamped right now. 

@TeddyBear You can choose a different master.  

But on a serious note, while it's not her best suite, she can do it with a non-thematic Crew. One way is melee Dora and send her in to tie up one quarter on her own (killing everything there), while the rest of her crew is a motley of beaters and runners. I typically bring tots for last-minute sprints into the quarters I want, as well as a strong beater to control a quarter. Depending on the schemes, you could hold your own quarters - no one is coming in with melee Dora and Nekima guarding each quarter, or you can throw them up and hope to off-balance things by taking out their key models or weaker minions to get a  numbers advantage. 

I'm also thinking a summoning Dora can do some funky tricks with if you have a strong hand. I've had success with Dora Inciting and summoning on her turn. The fresh Sorrows can use Misery Loves Company to teleport to a different quarter for safety or contesting quarters. I've not tried this yet, but I suspect it can be quite viable. 

[Le gob]

I just got my Pandora box.
Would you have some list advice for the different builds?

[ringsnake]

9 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Worst strategy for Pandora is Reconnoitter/interf.

How do you play this strat. with her? (Or do yo use directly, Dreamer??)

You choose a different master. I've used Lynch for those, and he's godlike at it. He comes in with a crew of 6 to 7 ss models that are crazy durable, and can bring back Huggles in just the right spot to capture or contest a corner. Your opponent is forced to engage and get close for both schemes, and that's just how Lynch and his crew like it.

I've tried Lilith with reconnoiter, but I don't quite get her yet, and don't have the models to support her play style. In theory she and her little batty-monkey-babies should own reconnoiter, but I've had no success.

[spikes]

13 hours ago, Le gob said:

I just got my Pandora box.
Would you have some list advice for the different builds?

It'll take me some time to flesh out the rest, but I've put up Melee Dora. The list is quite generic, but feel free to ask if you have specific concerns or goals. 

[bMi]

Note that you can also incite your own models, handy first turn to incite your next model in the activation order. Slightly less useful in later turns.

[santaclaws01]

2 hours ago, bMi said:

Note that you can also incite your own models, handy first turn to incite your next model in the activation order. Slightly less useful in later turns.

How is that useful? Fading memory only lets you push if you pass a Wp duel against an enemy model, and you're just giving your opponent the choice to activate the model you already wanted to activate on your go.

[bMi]

43 minutes ago, santaclaws01 said:

How is that useful? Fading memory only lets you push if you pass a Wp duel against an enemy model, and you're just giving your opponent the choice to activate the model you already wanted to activate on your go.

Point taken

[Treehouse]

About 'rile them up', it frees your (0) incite for Depression if you play paralyze Pandora. Though it's not really worth it since you are paying 2ss, have one less potenial paralyze and the extra damage track is irrelevant. But it's there. 

I think a part about models amd what they can do for pandora would be nice, for example iggy chaining martyr.

 

Also, a rundow on the emissaries perfect copy ability would be great. What is good to take, what can't be taken because of timing. Armour and incorporeal are easy, but accomplice from the effigy, for example, allows you to chain activate summoned changelings. Or lelu to lure models into your hungry land marker. 'Don't mind me' is also nice. Or 'surprise'  

[Treehouse]

I don't have Broken Promises yet, but there might be some i.teresting things there too. Is the Adze's scheme marker.shenannigan an ability? 

[Icarius]

A great article of pandora by Adam Roger

http://www.malifauxmusings.com/2017/10/misery-and-woe-pandora-tactica.html

[spikes]

17 hours ago, Treehouse said:

About 'rile them up', it frees your (0) incite for Depression if you play paralyze Pandora. Though it's not really worth it since you are paying 2ss, have one less potenial paralyze and the extra damage track is irrelevant. But it's there. 

I think a part about models amd what they can do for pandora would be nice, for example iggy chaining martyr.

 

Also, a rundow on the emissaries perfect copy ability would be great. What is good to take, what can't be taken because of timing. Armour and incorporeal are easy, but accomplice from the effigy, for example, allows you to chain activate summoned changelings. Or lelu to lure models into your hungry land marker. 'Don't mind me' is also nice. Or 'surprise'  

I really think Rile Them Up isn't worth it for 2SS. If it were 1SS, I might consider it. 

I'll get to the models part eventually, but it'll take me some time. Alternatively, anyone's free to work on it and post it here. I'll edit it into the post and credit them accordingly. In the meantime, there's still PMF and blogs. The value of posting it in a forum is to me is for the discussion.

Incidentally, I played summoning Dora against Reva yesterday and lost her in Turn 2. Bad play on my part, but it's also quite a bad matchup with Decaying Aura and Anna Lovelace. Total shutdown of Fading Memories and Aether Connection.

[Treehouse]

Never played Reva, so I have no insight on what could have beend done.

About the Emissary, if you use 'Perfect Copy' to get 'Surprise', the Emissary could use his own attacks as a better Pounce, right? It only states 'an action this model may take'. So the Emissary could even use its (0) attack on the upgrade, as the 'Copycat' - restrictions of the Changeling don't apply. This also means the Emissary would be able to declare triggers, possibly chaining into a second attack, if I am not mistaken. I don't know, if the Emissary would have to target the same model which triggered 'Surprise' or any model in range. Probably the first.

[Adran]

On 18/10/2017 at 6:49 AM, TeddyBear said:

Worst strategy for Pandora is Reconnoitter/interf.

How do you play this strat. with her? (Or do yo use directly, Dreamer??)

3" engagement makes her pretty good at interference. The aim would be to tie up as many models with her as you can and use paralyse (or at least the threat of it), or horror duels to use up lots of the enemies hand. 

I would eb relying on the rest of my crew to do the point scoring, and largely making use of her as something the just disrupts the enemy plans.

A similar approach can be used in Reconnoter, but you try and clump the enemy in the 1 quarter with Pandora, and stop them winning a second. Its not as easy, but its certainly a viable plan. 

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, Adran said:

3" engagement makes her pretty good at interference. The aim would be to tie up as many models with her as you can and use paralyse (or at least the threat of it), or horror duels to use up lots of the enemies hand. 

I would eb relying on the rest of my crew to do the point scoring, and largely making use of her as something the just disrupts the enemy plans.

A similar approach can be used in Reconnoter, but you try and clump the enemy in the 1 quarter with Pandora, and stop them winning a second. Its not as easy, but its certainly a viable plan. 

What could possibly be (where appropriate) a good core- list for interference?

I was thinking about (i could be wrong)

- Pandora

Voices

Depression

Aether Conn.

- Primordial Magic

-Lilithu(????)

What else???

 

You don't think that other NB masters are better (then Pandora)  for interference?

 

 

 

[spikes]

1 hour ago, TeddyBear said:

What could possibly be (where appropriate) a good core- list for interference?

I was thinking about (i could be wrong)

- Pandora

Voices

Depression

Aether Conn.

- Primordial Magic

-Lilithu(????)

What else???

 

You don't think that other NB masters are better (then Pandora)  for interference?

 

 

 

@TeddyBear Not sure if you saw my reply previously, but I did suggest a non-thematic crew with Nekima and Tots supporting a melee Dora. That would be the Box + FGF configuration. Can't go wrong with Doppelganger too - copying Tot's Sprint can give her a potential 36" walk to hit the quarter you need. 

I'm not a big fan of lures, so Lelitu is not on my radar, but she could throw enemy positioning off depending on where she pulls them. 

Also, there are definitely other Masters who can do this better, like Lilith and Dreamer.

On a separate note, I posted a quick bat rep on my encounter with Reva. Technically, it's not really a Pandora bat rep since she doesn't do much and dies in Turn 2. Still, maybe you can get some insights into my crew building process.

[Adran]

I don't build "core" lists, I make it up as I go along, so I don't have any set things. 

Pandora may not be the best master at interference, but that wasn't the question you asked, you wanted to know a way to use her. I don't see why she is much worse that several other masters at it (I don't think she is much worse than Lilith or Titania or lucius for this on the whole,). All the masters are capable of winning it, if you know Pandora well and have never played the dreamer, then you would do better with Pandora than you would with the dreamer, even though he is probably a "better master" for Reconnotre, so its a very individual thing as to what you should play each game. 

Lilitu is something I would look at for interference due to lure and 4" engagement, but it may well depend on what the board looks like. 

Effigiy is a good figure when I need body count, as are Gupps and Tots, which is one of the things I look for. I also look for Models that can play a signifigant role from my side of the board (so I can leave them in my quarters to score and they still do something), so that might be something with a ranged attack, like Tuco or Angle eyes. 

[spikes]

2 minutes ago, Adran said:

I don't build "core" lists, I make it up as I go along, so I don't have any set things. 

Pandora may not be the best master at interference, but that wasn't the question you asked, you wanted to know a way to use her. I don't see why she is much worse that several other masters at it (I don't think she is much worse than Lilith or Titania or lucius for this on the whole,). All the masters are capable of winning it, if you know Pandora well and have never played the dreamer, then you would do better with Pandora than you would with the dreamer, even though he is probably a "better master" for Reconnotre, so its a very individual thing as to what you should play each game. 

Lilitu is something I would look at for interference due to lure and 4" engagement, but it may well depend on what the board looks like. 

Effigiy is a good figure when I need body count, as are Gupps and Tots, which is one of the things I look for. I also look for Models that can play a signifigant role from my side of the board (so I can leave them in my quarters to score and they still do something), so that might be something with a ranged attack, like Tuco or Angle eyes. 

I'm starting to take a liking for Changelings. (0) for 5" place lets them have some added utility as scheme runners. 

[TeddyBear]

1 hour ago, spikes said:

@TeddyBear Not sure if you saw my reply previously, but I did suggest a non-thematic crew with Nekima and Tots supporting a melee Dora. That would be the Box + FGF configuration. Can't go wrong with Doppelganger too - copying Tot's Sprint can give her a potential 36" walk to hit the quarter you need. 

I'm not a big fan of lures, so Lelitu is not on my radar, but she could throw enemy positioning off depending on where she pulls them. 

Also, there are definitely other Masters who can do this better, like Lilith and Dreamer.

On a separate note, I posted a quick bat rep on my encounter with Reva. Technically, it's not really a Pandora bat rep since she doesn't do much and dies in Turn 2. Still, maybe you can get some insights into my crew building process.

Yes and i thank you, i like much the idea of Pandora in one quarter and Nekima in another! Do you use terror tot with sprint for take another quarter (but without engage them)?

i Know i'm little off-topic but it would be interesting how you do with Lilith..

1 hour ago, Adran said:

I don't build "core" lists, I make it up as I go along, so I don't have any set things. 

Pandora may not be the best master at interference, but that wasn't the question you asked, you wanted to know a way to use her. I don't see why she is much worse that several other masters at it (I don't think she is much worse than Lilith or Titania or lucius for this on the whole,). All the masters are capable of winning it, if you know Pandora well and have never played the dreamer, then you would do better with Pandora than you would with the dreamer, even though he is probably a "better master" for Reconnotre, so its a very individual thing as to what you should play each game. 

Lilitu is something I would look at for interference due to lure and 4" engagement, but it may well depend on what the board looks like. 

Effigiy is a good figure when I need body count, as are Gupps and Tots, which is one of the things I look for. I also look for Models that can play a signifigant role from my side of the board (so I can leave them in my quarters to score and they still do something), so that might be something with a ranged attack, like Tuco or Angle eyes. 

i asked you only to just have your opinion on.

i think that dreamer is the best master neverborn for interference..but pandora is my favorite nb master and i don't like much play with dreamer in tournaments; time is limited, i spend a lot of time to prepare models for summoning 

(sorry for mistakes)

[spikes]

2 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

Yes and i thank you, i like much the idea of Pandora in one quarter and Nekima in another! Do you use terror tot with sprint for take another quarter (but without engage them)?

i Know i'm little off-topic but it would be interesting how you do with Lilith..

7

I usually try to keep the tots in cover but within sufficient distance to sprint from one quarter to another. Activating them late in the turn will give you the chance to 'steal' a quarter by increasing your model count if the opponent isn't careful, or by running into a cluster of enemy models and engaging them if they positioned poorly. Both of these threats add another layer to the opponent's decisions. To deny Interference, you only need to hold 3 quarters. I see this sort of like an L shape. Pandora and Nekima will take the ends of each L, while the tots will wait in the quarter between, seeing where they need to go to swing things in your favour.

I take a similar approach with Lilith, except that it's easier for her to move things around with Transfixing Gaze (lure models to you) and Tangle Shadows (teleport Lilith up).

[TeddyBear]

What do you do when in tournament you have deal with masters like Shenlong or Kirai?

[Nikodemus]

22 minutes ago, TeddyBear said:

What do you do when in tournament you have deal with masters like Shenlong or Kirai?

What issues do you have with Shenlong?

[TeddyBear]

2 hours ago, Nikodemus said:

What issues do you have with Shenlong?

I find him one of best and versatile masters, (at least in gg 2017)

Also he can easily remove conditions, and pandora (works well with conditions like many nb.)

Certainly, first thing to do is kill emissary (to restrict shenlong draws synergies) or no?

Other general advices??

Many thanks (and sorry for language mistakes)

 

[santaclaws01]

6 hours ago, TeddyBear said:

I find him one of best and versatile masters, (at least in gg 2017)

Also he can easily remove conditions, and pandora (works well with conditions like many nb.)

Certainly, first thing to do is kill emissary (to restrict shenlong draws synergies) or no?

Other general advices??

Many thanks (and sorry for language mistakes)

 

You'll want to force activations with Mood Swing. If the Emissary is activating first thing it can't draw 3 cards off of a LRM's focus. Shenlong also likes to have a lot of beneficial conditions on his models, so you can get some decent use out of Woe Is Me.