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Through the Breach FAQ and Errata


Mason
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2 hours ago, tomc said:

Hi Folks,

Thank you for all of your help last time. Here's another pedantic question:
 

How long do older spells last?

Magia published in the older TTB books (Into the Steam, Under Quarantine and Into the Bayou) list certain short duration magias' durations in “turns”.

Since the 2nd edition Core Rule Book, all similar short duration magia have their durations listed in “rounds”. 

Additionally, in the current edition, turns and rounds have distinct meanings and there are multiple "turns" within a single "round". I don’t have access to the 1st Edition Almanacs to check if this used to be the case.

The only directly reprinted spell I could find is “Summon Gamin”.  
Older: Into the Steam pg 196 - duration “3 turns”
Updated: Core Rule Book pg 271 - duration “3 rounds” 

Should magia published in the older books such as “Berserk Fury” (Under Quarantine pg 156), “Mudform” (Into the Bayou pg 150), “Improved Fate” (Into the Steam pg 197), etc.,  now have their durations interpreted as “rounds”?

 

And following on…
Should magia like these be subject to the "Increase Duration" immuto (Core Rule book pg 275)?
 

Just had a quick look at the first edition Fated Rulebook. All spells with short durations in that book list the durations in turns as opposed to rounds but the book itself does differentiate between turns and rounds in the description of combat (everyone gets a turn within a round). When you get to the Increase Duration immuto it lists the brackets of time as

1 turn

2 turns

3turns

1 minute

10 minutes etc.

I would certainly read any of the older books that refer to durations in "turns" as actually meaning "rounds". The strongest argument in favour of this is the spell bury which states that it lasts "until the end of the turn" and would be basically useless if it was read to last until the end of that player turn as opposed to the round.

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38 minutes ago, TimH said:

Just had a quick look at the first edition Fated Rulebook. All spells with short durations in that book list the durations in turns as opposed to rounds but the book itself does differentiate between turns and rounds in the description of combat (everyone gets a turn within a round). When you get to the Increase Duration immuto it lists the brackets of time as

1 turn

2 turns

3turns

1 minute

10 minutes etc.

I would certainly read any of the older books that refer to durations in "turns" as actually meaning "rounds". The strongest argument in favour of this is the spell bury which states that it lasts "until the end of the turn" and would be basically useless if it was read to last until the end of that player turn as opposed to the round.

Thanks Tim!
That matches my interpretation. Good to know that the wording of the Increase Duration immuto also changed.

That more or less answers my second question, that the newer worded "rounds" version of Increased Duration can be applied to spells published in older books where their duration is listed in "turns".

I'm playing in what is turning out to be a very very dangerous campaign so far, we very nearly had a TPK to a single enforcer at the end of our first session-adventure. So I'm looking forward to buffing my fellow fated a bit by stacking a few Increase Durations on Improved Fate!

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Hi Folks,

A couple of specific questions about the Combine Spell Immuto:


When using the Combined Spell Immuto (CRB pg 273) the text states to choose a second Magia and “add its effects to the spell”.

First question: 
Is the effect of the second Magia modified by any Immuto added to the primary Magia?
Or
Are you able/required to apply different Immuto to the second Magia’s effects, modifying the total TN as appropriate?
(With the provision that you can ONLY apply Immuto to the primary that can also be applied to the secondary.)

Some examples: 
If I apply an Alter Range Immuto, do both the primary and secondary Magia gain the benefit?
(If not, the target may be out of range of secondary effects)

Is the same true for Elemental Immuto?
(Noting that most sorcery Magia require an Elemental Immuto)

What about Increase Damage? Would two damaging Magia both have their damage increased?

Would two damaging Magia Combined count as a single source of damage or multiple? 
(Important for the purposes of damage reduction like Armour and for applications of elemental Immuto)


Secondary question:
One of the conditions of Combined Spell is that the resist (Df or Wp) of the two Magia must be the same. 

How does this apply to Magia that are not resisted by either of these? 
Can Magia that require an Evade/Centering/Toughness challenge be Combined at all? 
 

Thanks in advance!

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So, just so you are aware I only have the first edition rules and Into the Steam.

In 1st edition the Combined Spell Immuto has the following rules

TN+5

The spell combines the effects of two Spells. Choose a second Magia and add its effects to this spell/ The spell must follow these requirements.

  • The second magia must have a base TN equal to or lower than the base TN of the primary magia
  • The resist of the magia must be the same
  • The primary magia may only have immuto that can be applied to both magia
  • The magia must be different

So if you were to follow the rules set down in 1st edition you would answer all of the questions you raise.

3 hours ago, tomc said:

First question: 

Is the effect of the second Magia modified by any Immuto added to the primary Magia?
Or
Are you able/required to apply different Immuto to the second Magia’s effects, modifying the total TN as appropriate?

If I apply an Alter Range Immuto, do both the primary and secondary Magia gain the benefit?
(If not, the target may be out of range of secondary effects)

Is the same true for Elemental Immuto?
(Noting that most sorcery Magia require an Elemental Immuto)

What about Increase Damage? Would two damaging Magia both have their damage increased?

Would two damaging Magia Combined count as a single source of damage or multiple? 
(Important for the purposes of damage reduction like Armour and for applications of elemental Immuto)


Secondary question:
One of the conditions of Combined Spell is that the resist (Df or Wp) of the two Magia must be the same. 

How does this apply to Magia that are not resisted by either of these? 
Can Magia that require an Evade/Centering/Toughness challenge be Combined at all?

 Assume the combined spell magia is the first alteration to the spell in all cases. Any subsequent immuto modifies all the aspects of the spell (which is why you can only apply immuto which are applicable to both magia), so a single alter range increases the range of both effects, both effects are the same element, both would have their damage increased (armour application i imagine would be applied twice as two damage flips are made).

The secondary question seems to be a change in 2ns edition, I would personally rule as a gm that both effects need the same resist, so you could combine 2 unresisted magia but not a magia that requires df and a magia that can be ignored via an evade challenge. The intent seems to be that the target only ever makes one resist.

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Thanks Tim!

I think your interpretation here is key: "Assume the combined spell magia is the first alteration to the spell in all cases. Any subsequent immuto modifies all the aspects of the spell..." Everything else makes a lot more sense if you start your understanding from this point.

 

For my second question, the only change in the 2E Core Rule book is this:

"The Resist of the two Magia must be the same (Df or Wp)."

I agree that the safest interpretation is that offensive Magia can only be combined if they engage identical defensive stats; be that Resists (Df, Wp), or Skills (Centering, Evade, Toughness).

Though of course this makes the Immuto more restrictive. Perhaps that is the writers' intent.

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OK, one more...

Casting Spells outside of Dramatic Time

What is the general ruling on how many times a spell (or manifested power) may be attempted outside of Dramatic Time?

For example:
Mend Critical (assuming a few additions of Increased Duration) can be cast some time after the critical effect is received. An unskilled Enchanter may have a 1 in 4 chance of success  (or lower) on the draw. 

Should they just be allowed to keep trying every ~3seconds until they succeed? (Assuming a 1AP action, 2AP per round, 1 round ~ 6seconds)


In Dramatic Time, this seems clear cut. You can repeatedly try to cast any spell within your turn(s) and as long as you pay the AP cost. 

Out of Dramatic Time, should you even ask for a draw? 
Ask for a single draw and have it cover all attempts, like some Skill Challenges? 
Or just assume eventual success?

It seems wrong that healing a broken leg with magic should be MORE difficult outside of a fight than within one.


Minor follow up: 
For pursuits that grant Twist Cards on failed spell casting outside of Dramatic Time (e.g. Manifester, Magewright) should they draw for every failure? Just the first one?

Repeated failure trying to cast a difficult spell could result in a lot of Twist Cards without any “gaming” of the system to try to maximise a Control Hand.

But not allowing any Twist draw is very limiting to these pursuits that seem intended to focus on out-of-Dramatic-Time magic.
 

Thanks again!

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I mean going by that definition the actual meaning is that the only spells that can be combined are those which are resisted by either defense or willpower. In fact rereading the 1st edition version of the immuto it does actually imply that you can only combine spells with resist values. It may be a little limiting in some of the funkier things you could do but it does also stop you creating weird nonsensical spells like animate corpse+subsume corpse. As written I would say the immuto only works on spells that have a resist value of Df or Wp. That being said this is an RPG not a competitive tabletop game so that aspect of RAW is really going to come down to player group and GM. With GM agreement a player could make all sorts of interesting thematic spells off of combine.

Examples, Cadaver mask+Subsume corpse. Eat the corpse and wear its face.

Terrifying Aura+teleport. Appear inamongst the enemy in a malignant explosion of crows or other terrifying dark magic.

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4 minutes ago, tomc said:

Casting Spells outside of Dramatic Time

What is the general ruling on how many times a spell (or manifested power) may be attempted outside of Dramatic Time?

1st ed answer is in the narrative time section of the rules.

A player may not choose to Flip instead of Assuming 10. Assuming 10 is a mandatory mechanic for a character who is not in a stressful situation.

So, outside of combat (and assuming no danger or threat to failure) you will always succeed at casting any spell with immuto that you would need a 10 to succeed at. But it is impossible for you to cheat or repeatedly attempt to succesfully cast a spell that would require an 11 or greater.

9 minutes ago, tomc said:

Minor follow up: 

For pursuits that grant Twist Cards on failed spell casting outside of Dramatic Time (e.g. Manifester, Magewright) should they draw for every failure? Just the first one?

Repeated failure trying to cast a difficult spell could result in a lot of Twist Cards without any “gaming” of the system to try to maximise a Control Hand.

But not allowing any Twist draw is very limiting to these pursuits that seem intended to focus on out-of-Dramatic-Time magic.

This I feel requires me to see the exact wording of the pursuit. I would take it though as meaning that you cannot draw off of this pursuit by intentioonally failing heals you cannot reach outside of combat. Instead it applies more to spells such as Interrogate or Mind Control that have obvious applications outside combat, but would require flipping for on account of being resistable/having penalties for failure (in a lot of cases if you are casting something on someone odds are they will react poorly to it if you fail and they notice).

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Interestingly this text:
"A player may not choose to Flip instead of Assuming 10. Assuming 10 is a mandatory mechanic for a character who is not in a stressful situation."

Is notably absent from the Core Rule Book 2E. It makes a lot of sense though and is clearly reminiscent of the "take 10" mechanic of DnD 3rd Edition.

 


For the draw Twist Card mechanic:
Manifester: From Nightmares pg 88
"When this character fails a Magical Skills duel, she may draw a card."

 

(Apologies, the Magewright in Above the Law does actually specify Dramatic Time)

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16 minutes ago, tomc said:

Interestingly this text:
"A player may not choose to Flip instead of Assuming 10. Assuming 10 is a mandatory mechanic for a character who is not in a stressful situation."

Is notably absent from the Core Rule Book 2E. It makes a lot of sense though and is clearly reminiscent of the "take 10" mechanic of DnD 3rd Edition.

In 1st edition the segment on assuming 10 is in Chapter 7 Gameplay in the segment about Action and Combat (page 199). The Book has a segment on Time and Turns  then Narrative Time which includes the assuming 10 segment and after that Dramatic Time. If it isn't in there then I guess they removed it. If you are the GM feel free to use it or ignore it at your discretion I guess.

As for the Manifester that seems sort of weird. Comparing to Graverobber, Dabbler and Tinkerer it just seems like a straight improvement. It could be it is meant to be dramatic time only and they forgot to include that caveat, it is supposed to esclusively work outside of dramatic time. Not sure on that, run it how you feel it works.

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Thanks again Tim!

Interesting that the writers explicitly removed the section on assuming 10 from the rules.

I agree that assuming 10 on spell casting outside of Dramatic Time where you do not have consequence of failure makes sense. Though I think you would also need to assume that you also draw any required suit.
 

Losing out on potential 11,12,13,Red-Jokers, seems to be a reasonable model for "you don't have the fight-or-flight adrenaline in play".

Of course since we're mixing 1ed and 2ed rules we are firmly in the RAI vs RAW territory and so Fatemaster fiat/judgement is needed.

 

I think it's clear that spell casting outside of dramatic time is allowed. It should also be possible to fail.

The remaining question really is: "Should it be more difficult to cast certain spells outside of dramatic time than inside dramatic time?"

I believe the answer should be: "No. It should not be more difficult to cast a spell in a calm atmosphere than when a monster is trying to eat your face".  

I also think you should not be able to repeatedly re-try a given spell until you eventually draw a Red Joker.

But these are only my opinions and exactly where the line is drawn seems to be very much open to interpretation.

 

Regarding the On The Pursuit spell-failure draws:
Into the Steam was published in 2018 and the Magewright therein requires dramatic time to daw a card. Just like all of the magic focused pursuits in the CRB and previously.

From Nightmares was published in 2021 and the Manifester and Breahburned therein do not require dramatic time to daw a card on spell failure. 

As you said, this is a straight improvement to their On The Pursuit abilities compared with all previously published pursuits. Without official clarification or errata, it's impossible to say if this is intended by the writers or an oversight.

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